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rocket2man(at)isp.com
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:04 pm Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
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Time: 12:54:19 AM PST US
From: <jamesbaldwin(at)dc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: B&C alterator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
| Quote: | > Bob and others -
> > >I have a newly purchased RV8 with a B&C 40 amp alternator and automotive
> > >style blade fuses. Good grounding with a firewall mounted ground bus
> > >which is then routed to the engine. The digital ammeter indicates a
> > >running load of 6-7 amps. The battery is a Concorde dry cell mounted on
> > >the firewall. On two separate occasions the 15 amp alternator field fuse
> > >has blown without any additional or noted transient loads being placed on
> > >the alternator. The builder had this happen to him also and he thought it
> > >was the battery so he replaced it. The new, year old Concorde battery has
> > >great cranking power so I am not looking at this as a potential
> > >problem. The only other problem I have noted is when using all of the
> > >lights, strobes, fuel pump and electric flaps the main 40 amp C/B popped
> > >once. Ignoring this as an overload my real problem appears to be the
> > >field fuse. Why does the 15 amp field fuse blow and what's the smartest
> > >way to diagnose this problem? Thank you. JBB
>
|
The first problem is that the original builder did not
understand the physics of the system he/she was crafting
and chose not to study and understand why the z-figures
were designed the way they are.
A 40A breaker on a 40A alternator is UNDERSIZED. The
nameplate rating of an alternator is for worst-case
conditions. I.e. minimum rpm for full output and max
ambient operating temperature. Under less stressful
conditions, the alternator may deliver 15 to 25%
more current.
This says that the 60A breaker on the b-lead of 60A
alternators in 100,000 GA aircraft is DESIGNED to
nuisance trip. Suggest you replace the 40A breaker
with a 30-50A current limiter out on the firewall.
There should not be a field fuse with an LR series
regulator. These us crowbar OV protection and are
designed to work downstream of a breaker only. Is
the recommended 5A breaker also installed? IF so,
the wiring between the breaker and the bus needs
little if any protection. The z-figures recommend
a fusible link . . . exceedingly robust compared
to the fuse.
Now we need to figure out what's irritating the
OV protection system. Do I presume correctly that
the regulator also came from B&C (LR3 series?) or
is there some other combination of regulator/ov
in place?
I'll assume that since the field protection is being
nuisance tripped, there is some form of crowbar
ov protection in place. The ov protection may
be an older version that was sensitive to some
forms of normal bus transients. The designs at
both B&C and AeroElectric Connection were modified
to eliminate that condition . . . the system you're
working with may need to be updated.
This is not a condition unique to 'crowbar' ov
protection. EVERY ov protection system has some
form of comparator between bus voltage and
some stable reference. When a setpoint is exceeded,
it sends a signal to some form of disconnect
device (relay, transistor, scr, etc). There is
a dynamic component to ov protection too . . .
voltage excursions above the setpoint are allowed
as long as they do not exceed certain time
intervals. It's the fine tuning of the dynamic
sensitivity that makes some products prone to
nuisance trips. I've probably designed two dozen
or more OV protection systems in my career, I've
only had to re-tune two of them. In one case,
the transient condition generated by the aircraft
was greater than the Mil-STD-704 guidelines
to which the product was crafted.
Tell us what regulator/ov combination is installed.
If an LR3, what's the manufacturing date? If
an AEC crowbar module, what colors of wires does
it have. Older versions are red/black, newer
are orange/black.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Here are more specifics for this installation:
The wiring diagram provided by the builder (and it seems to be accurate) is the "Z-1, Simple system with Toggle Mag Sw and Linear Regulator."
The battery is a Concorde RG 25XC.
The alternator is a B+C L40, s/n 010806.
The regulator/OV prot is a B+C LR-3, s/n 11920211.
The C/B from the alt output is only 40 amps! I'm guessing it should be bigger based on your previous comments or I can use a current limiter you suggest but I'll need to know which one/where are they available.
The alternator field fuse that has blown several times I rechecked and is 15 amps. Does the "nuisance trip" scenario you speak of manifest as blowing the 15 amp fuse?
What else would you like to know and what do you think? Thank you. JBB
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
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At 11:41 PM 8/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob -
Here are more specifics for this installation:
The wiring diagram provided by the builder (and it seems to be accurate)
is the "Z-1, Simple system with Toggle Mag Sw and Linear Regulator."
|
Okay, this drawing was 'retired' at Z-9 or so and replaced
with Z-11. They are similar in many respects.
| Quote: | The battery is a Concorde RG 25XC.
The alternator is a B+C L40, s/n 010806.
The regulator/OV prot is a B+C LR-3, s/n 11920211.
|
I don't recall how to read B&C's serial numbers
with respect to manufacturing date. But it may
well be that this one pre-dates the modifications
added later to reduce probability of nuisance
trips.
| Quote: |
The C/B from the alt output is only 40 amps! I'm guessing it should be
bigger based on your previous comments or I can use a current limiter you
suggest but I'll need to know which one/where are they available.
|
You can get the legacy current limiters and mounting
bases from B&C. Alternatively, a MAXI fuse holder from
the O'Rileys or some other parts store would do too.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/maxi.gif
They can supply the fuse too. Use a 60A. Tie the
fuseholder onto the fat wire that feeds your starter
contactor and tie b-lead power into the system at
the starter contactor.
| Quote: | The alternator field fuse that has blown several times I rechecked and
is 15 amps. Does the "nuisance trip" scenario you speak of manifest as
blowing the 15 amp fuse?
|
Yes. I dug back into the archives and found that
Z-1 suggested the 15A fuse protected feeder from
the fuseblock that was followed downstream by a
5A breaker on the panel. Later drawings suggested
a much more robust protection of the alternator field
breaker feed in the form of a fusible link . . . see
Z-11.
For your purposes now, replace the 15A fuse with
a 30A fuse. This will probably transfer the trip to
the breaker instead of the fuse. It seems likely that
the LR3 is seeing something that irritates it's ov
protection sensing.
The original design observed all the recommendations
for noise immunity but when we started installing this
system in the Bonanzas, one of the test pilots found that
if he turned both landing and taxi lights on at the same
time, he could trip the standby alternator ov system.
The noises generated by this event were pretty spectacular.
Inrush currents from two large lamps through the very bouncy
contacts of W31 breaker-switches put some really ugly
transients onto the bus. It was doubtful that anyone would
DO that thing but it wasn't difficult to modify the
circuit to ignore this stimulus. We modified the circuit
and have experienced no difficulties (that I'm aware of)
since.
| Quote: | What else would you like to know and what do you think? Thank you. JBB
|
Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
let's see what they say first.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
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James Baldwin
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
|
|
| Quote: | Bob -
>Here are more specifics for this installation:
>
>The wiring diagram provided by the builder (and it seems to be accurate)
>is the "Z-1, Simple system with Toggle Mag Sw and Linear Regulator."
|
Okay, this drawing was 'retired' at Z-9 or so and replaced
with Z-11. They are similar in many respects.
| Quote: | >The battery is a Concorde RG 25XC.
>The alternator is a B+C L40, s/n 010806.
>The regulator/OV prot is a B+C LR-3, s/n 11920211.
|
I don't recall how to read B&C's serial numbers
with respect to manufacturing date. But it may
well be that this one pre-dates the modifications
added later to reduce probability of nuisance
trips.
| Quote: | >
>The C/B from the alt output is only 40 amps! I'm guessing it should be
>bigger based on your previous comments or I can use a current limiter you
>suggest but I'll need to know which one/where are they available.
|
You can get the legacy current limiters and mounting
bases from B&C. Alternatively, a MAXI fuse holder from
the O'Rileys or some other parts store would do too.
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/MaxiFuse_Holder.jpg
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuses/maxi.gif
They can supply the fuse too. Use a 60A. Tie the
fuseholder onto the fat wire that feeds your starter
contactor and tie b-lead power into the system at
the starter contactor.
| Quote: | > The alternator field fuse that has blown several times I rechecked and
> is 15 amps. Does the "nuisance trip" scenario you speak of manifest as
> blowing the 15 amp fuse?
|
Yes. I dug back into the archives and found that
Z-1 suggested the 15A fuse protected feeder from
the fuseblock that was followed downstream by a
5A breaker on the panel. Later drawings suggested
a much more robust protection of the alternator field
breaker feed in the form of a fusible link . . . see
Z-11.
For your purposes now, replace the 15A fuse with
a 30A fuse. This will probably transfer the trip to
the breaker instead of the fuse. It seems likely that
the LR3 is seeing something that irritates it's ov
protection sensing.
The original design observed all the recommendations
for noise immunity but when we started installing this
system in the Bonanzas, one of the test pilots found that
if he turned both landing and taxi lights on at the same
time, he could trip the standby alternator ov system.
The noises generated by this event were pretty spectacular.
Inrush currents from two large lamps through the very bouncy
contacts of W31 breaker-switches put some really ugly
transients onto the bus. It was doubtful that anyone would
DO that thing but it wasn't difficult to modify the
circuit to ignore this stimulus. We modified the circuit
and have experienced no difficulties (that I'm aware of)
since.
| Quote: | >What else would you like to know and what do you think? Thank you. JBB
|
Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
let's see what they say first.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the LR-3B needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now and I get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the dreaded intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the location of components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
|
|
| Quote: |
Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
let's see what they say first.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the LR-3B
needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now and I
get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His
suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which
conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I
want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the dreaded
intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the location of
components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to
start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field
location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
|
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the
effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704
envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's
also true that your particular installation may be
generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets
the ov protection.
I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this
situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar"
shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the
dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition
and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system
design and integration problem that must be solved
irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down
philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can
be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown
event.
My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem
out of their shops . . . so let's do this.
The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A
breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream
of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's
get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker
should be mounted within reach of the pilot.
Let's do some flying and see if you can identify
the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming
you DO have a single point ground behind the panel
for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some
experiments to see if the noise source can
be deduced.
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
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rocket2man(at)isp.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: B+C Alternator problem |
|
|
Time: 09:44:38 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: B+C alternator problem
> >
> > Call B&C at 316-283-8000 and see if they're interested
> > in updating your LR-3 with respect to noise immunity.
> > If push comes to shove, I can modify it for you but
> > let's see what they say first.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >Bob -
> >Talked to Bill at B+C this afternoon and he wasn't too convinced the
LR-3B
> >needed much of an upgrade. He says there is a LR-3C being built now
and I
> >get the idea it has some transient type improvements built in. His
> >suggestion was to monitor the low voltage light to see under which
> >conditions it comes on. I don't think I can get it to trip when I
> >want. I am suspecting it might not be a consistent cause i.e. the
dreaded
> >intermittent type of thing. But, I now know enough about the
location of
> >components in my particular system to troubleshoot if I knew where to
> >start. The only thing I have done is put a 20 amp fuse in the field
> >location. I haven't flown it yet this way. JBB
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the
effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704
envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's
also true that your particular installation may be
generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets
the ov protection.
I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this
situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar"
shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the
dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition
and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system
design and integration problem that must be solved
irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down
philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can
be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown
event.
My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem
out of their shops . . . so let's do this.
The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A
breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream
of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's
get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker
should be mounted within reach of the pilot.
Let's do some flying and see if you can identify
the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming
you DO have a single point ground behind the panel
for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some
experiments to see if the noise source can
be deduced.
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
Bob -
Back in town. I will replace the 15 amp fuse with a 5 amp C/B
accessible to the pilot.
I am also making a detailed digram of the wiring to make sure there
aren't any rogue units in there somewhere. I am not sure if there is
any other fusible link in the wiring path but the B+C LR-3B is
accessible for wire tracing so I will make sure what's there.
I'll fly the airplane as you suggested and see if I can make it trip the
C/B.
JBB
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rocket2man(at)isp.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
|
|
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
It's true that the "C" version was crafted to offset the
effects of an extra-ordinary (outside the Mil-Std-704
envelope) noise situation on the G36 Bonanza. It's
also true that your particular installation may be
generating some un-anticipated stress that upsets
the ov protection.
I should point out here . . . AGAIN . . . that this
situation is not unique to the so-called "crowbar"
shutdown philosophy. It's a situation driven by the
dynamics of circuitry that watches for an ov condition
and makes a Let-Run/Shut-Down decision. It's a system
design and integration problem that must be solved
irrespective of the designer's choice for shut-down
philosophy. I.e, anyone's OV protection scheme can
be similarly "spoofed" into an unnecessary shutdown
event.
My sense is that B&C is hopeful of keeping this prolem
out of their shops . . . so let's do this.
The upstream field supply protection should be a 5A
breaker. If there's a "fusible" function upstream
of the breaker, make it a 24AWG fusible link. Let's
get the unit-fuse out of the system. The breaker
should be mounted within reach of the pilot.
Let's do some flying and see if you can identify
the antagonist condition. By the way, I'm assuming
you DO have a single point ground behind the panel
for all the electro-whizzies? Let's conduct some
experiments to see if the noise source can
be deduced.
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
Bob -
One more data point - before I replaced the blade fuse with a 5 amp C/B, I inserted a 20 amp fuse (the biggest I had handy) and flew it. Used the fuel pump and strobes a couple of times on and off but it did not blow. Then, 20 minutes later without any change in load it blew. Landed, installed another 20 amp blade fuse and flew again. No electrical loads this time until I turned the nav lights on and it was fine. 20 minutes into the flight it blew again. I'm taking the airplane apart again to install the 5 amp C/B. ???? How come this seems to be related to time? I live in the desert and it was 105 F during these flights. JBB
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
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|
At 11:51 PM 9/15/2008 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: |
This tends to confirm my suspicion that B&C has
probably not replaced departed technical staff that
used to support this and other products . . .
<snip>
If push comes to shove, you can mail me your regulator
and I'll modify it here. I think I recall all the things
we did to them . . . but it's been 7-10 years ago.
Bob . . .
Bob -
One more data point - before I replaced the blade fuse with a 5 amp C/B, I
inserted a 20 amp fuse (the biggest I had handy) and flew it. Used the
fuel pump and strobes a couple of times on and off but it did not
blow. Then, 20 minutes later without any change in load it blew. Landed,
installed another 20 amp blade fuse and flew again. No electrical loads
this time until I turned the nav lights on and it was fine. 20 minutes
into the flight it blew again. I'm taking the airplane apart again to
install the 5 amp C/B. ???? How come this seems to be related to
time? I live in the desert and it was 105 F during these flights. JBB
|
The best hypothesis of the moment suggests that
were seeing the effects of time in service for
downward drift of trip setting of OV protection,
upward drift in total system noise or both. It's
equally plausible that the conditions that combine
to finally push the OV sensor over the edge are
a statistical aggregate of all conditions where
they stack up at the edge of the bell curve . . .
the conditions that combine to trip the sensor
are not frequent but they are random.
This is the reason that design goals for OV sense
systems use timing values that are substantially
above the worst case noise expected in the airplane.
The operative term here is 'expected' . . . where
we discovered after years of production with one
configuration, a particular airplane produced an
unexpected combination of stimulus that tripped the
OV protection.
Folks mistakenly believe that the size of the upstream
protection sets the sensitivity of the OV protection.
Not so. Increasing the fuse size does not make the
system less likely to trip. This is why we recommend
that the 5A cb be in included in aircraft that are
otherwise protected by fuses. This nuisance tripping
phenomenon is not 100.0% predictable.
Send me your LR3 and I'll see what I can do to
tweak it's setpoint and timing such that it
fixes your problem.
Bob . . .
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rocket2man(at)isp.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
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Bob,
Thank you for your offer to take a look at my LR-3B. But before I
disconnect and send it to you I was <again> poking around last night and
noticed the "overvoltage" test switch. I see it on the wiring diagram
but what is it or when is it used in a test mode? The reason I ask is
the switch appeared to be intermittent (didn't have a good "on-off"
feel) and I figure to eliminate it from the list of possible faults I
could cut it out of the system or replace it with a new one. Comments? JBB
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: B+C alternator problem |
|
|
At 08:22 AM 9/17/2008 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob,
Thank you for your offer to take a look at my LR-3B. But before I
disconnect and send it to you I was <again> poking around last night and
noticed the "overvoltage" test switch. I see it on the wiring diagram but
what is it or when is it used in a test mode?
|
Yeah, I included that in the original design as a pre-flight
test item . . . but in later years we decided that testing every
flight wasn't necessary. I think the instructions now call for
periodic testing by means of a temporary jumper or perhaps
a push-button in an off-the-panel location.
| Quote: | The reason I ask is the switch appeared to be intermittent (didn't have
a good "on-off" feel) and I figure to eliminate it from the list of
possible faults I could cut it out of the system or replace it with a new one.
|
Aha! An installed switch. Yes, that COULD be a source
of your problems. Replacing it would be a valuable
experiment.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
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