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kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Has anyone had this happen to them,I have a 582 greyhead three blade gsc wood prop and on my last fight ( 20 hrs so far on prop) the pitch changed after take off , it started to vibrate some,after landing I found that one blade had changed pitch so I adjusted it took off    for a short flight and still it was off by two degrees, the half's seems to have very little gap if any  all torqued to 100in.Can I mill one half down to get a space for gap between the half's or has anyone wrapped each blade with something to make more gap I also found some black dust around the spinner by that blade I checked the torque on all bolts all 100 I'm thinking it might have no gap on that blade and it is slipping after full throttle , any help   thanks  Jerry



 Jerry Evans 

 KitfoxII

 Magalia Calif.

 N582'er'

 kitfox 555

 [quote][b]

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Jerry,

  

 Here is the advice I took on the same subject of  loose blades.  I bought an IVO. Cheap insurance.

  

 Pete

 Kitfox III sn 1000, 912, Grove, IVO  prop

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

djwild2(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Jerry,

 The same thing happened to me  once. They say when the gap is gone it's time to get a new blade, but mine  looked good just not much gap left so I sprayed a couple coats of auto clearcoat  on that black end and that took care of the slipping . I am not an expert on  propellers but it worked for me. I have a GSC 3 blade on my Model 1 532 and It  works great. Good luck

 Dan Wild

 Kansas 

  



  From: jerry evans (kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.net) 

 Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:58 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: gsc props changing pitch in  flight

 



            Has anyone had this happen to them,I have a 582        greyhead three blade gsc wood prop and on my        last fight ( 20 hrs so far on prop) the pitch changed after take        off , it started to vibrate some,after landing I found that one blade        had changed pitch so I adjusted it        took off    for a short flight and still it        was off by two degrees, the half's seems to have very little gap if        any  all torqued to 100in.Can I mill one half down to get a space for        gap between the half's or has anyone wrapped each blade with something to        make more gap I also found some black dust around the spinner by that        blade I checked the torque on all bolts all 100 I'm thinking it might        have no gap on that blade and it is slipping after full throttle , any        help   thanks  Jerry



       Jerry Evans 

       KitfoxII

       Magalia Calif.

       N582'er'

       kitfox 555

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[b]

kitfoxnick

Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Maryland

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Be careful I believe this prop has been Known to separate in flight creating a severe out of balance situation which could tear the engine off its mount which would then lead to a severe aft cg issue.  I think GSC recommends a 5 year 500 hour TBO.  There should be a gap between hub halves the lack of gap could indicate an over torque situation which could mean the prop roots are crushed.  When I bought my model IV it had the 68" GSC 3 blade from 1994 and there was no gap at the hub I decided to replace the whole assembly with a Warp drive 70" taper tip that did not have the limitations the GSC had.  Hope this helps if nothing else encourages you to investigate the gsc more.

Nick W.

_________________
Nick Weiskopf
Norrisville, MD
kitfox !V-1200
Rotax 912ul

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I'd be inclined to send it to GSC, Mine has no gap, GSC offered a pretty 

good price to check out/refurbish the prop. I also switched to warp after 

reading of separations.



Do Not Archive

Dave G. Mod IV 1050/ 582

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

If the prop, torqued on to spec, changes pitch in operation than either the hub or the blade roots are damaged... Either way this can result in a blade departure.  A blade departure can sure put a big dent in your day.  The excessive vibrations caused by a blade departure have been known to rip the engine from the plane putting the Balance part of W&B out the window...  There is no recovery.  Several guys have put a cable around their engines to keep them in approximately the right position in the event of a departure.  You may want to consider doing this if you intend to continue flying on a potentially dangerous prop.  

   

I’d take that prop and mount it in my den.  Then get something else to fly on.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C91734.FB668CF0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Your best solution to this problem would be to get a Warp Drive, Powerfin, or other composite propeller .  GSC props have bad history of losing entire blades resulting in crashes.  I did a lot of research on this subject, the cases are well documented on the net.  In the end I chose to buy a Warp drive prop.  I'm sure there will be some guys out there that will be offended by me pointing out the bad history of their favorite props, but this is the reality and well documented.  Good and accurate advice is far more important that trying to make everyone happy all the time.   I will be happy to start a thread post a bunch links to the GSC prop problems if need be...



As everyone here says, the loss of a prop blade is very likely fatal.  The engine is ripped off the airplane in a fraction of a second ( Don't think you will have time to shut it off, its not humanly possible ), and the airplane is left uncontrollable due to the extreme tail heavy condition ( Down elevator wont be enough to keep it flying ).  Do yourself a favor, spend whatever it takes to fix or replace your prop.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Mike, I know of only one blade departure on a GSC prop, but there may be 

others.  It was a person right here on this list.  The closeup photos of it 

indicated that it had a lot of wood rot inside the hub supposedly from being 

left outside for extended periods.  I'm not defending GSC nor do I own one, 

but to satisfy my curiosity I'd appreciate it if you would produce some of 

those cases that are so well documented.  I couldn't find much.

As I recall, IVO went through some very bad times and nearly closed the 

doors after some of their props shed blades.  There were lots of stories 

being circulated and IVO took a real beating from the feeding frenzy that 

was spawned on the web.  Fortunately, they recovered and they are now doing 

well, or at least they appear to.

Thanks,

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I don't think the GSC props are that bad....BUT they do have a time expiry on them and if there is any damage or issues with any prop give it the deep six, put a clock in it or put two notches in it and call it an ashtray.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C91746.04624B30[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

   

   

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10147 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Do yourself another favor and wrap a cable around the engine, through  

the firewall, around the tubing, and connect the ends of the cable  

together. I'm hoping that the loss of a prop blade will at least keep  

the engine somewhat attached to the airframe and allow for a somewhat  

balanced landing. If not, I've just spent less than $10 for some  

piece of mind.



All this talk of losing prop blades makes me think that there is  

something to be said for fixed pitch, one-piece props, even though  

these can come undone under the right/wrong circumstances, too.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  

waiting for new ignition system

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")





On Sep 15, 2008, at 12:36 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Your best solution to this problem would be to get a Warp Drive,  

 Powerfin, or other composite propeller .  GSC props have bad  

 history of losing entire blades resulting in crashes.  I did a lot  

 of research on this subject, the cases are well documented on the  

 net.  In the end I chose to buy a Warp drive prop.  I'm sure there  

 will be some guys out there that will be offended by me pointing  

 out the bad history of their favorite props, but this is the  

 reality and well documented.  Good and accurate advice is far more  

 important that trying to make everyone happy all the time.   I will  

 be happy to start a thread post a bunch links to the GSC prop  

 problems if need be...



 As everyone here says, the loss of a prop blade is very likely  

 fatal.  The engine is ripped off the airplane in a fraction of a  

 second ( Don't think you will have time to shut it off, its not  

 humanly possible ), and the airplane is left uncontrollable due to  

 the extreme tail heavy condition ( Down elevator wont be enough to  

 keep it flying ).  Do yourself a favor, spend whatever it takes to  

 fix or replace your prop.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4392#204392

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

If Gary Algate sees this, tell 'em about your lost prop incident,  

Gary...that was a hairy ride, I'll bet.



It might be that Deke is referring to Gary....eh, Deke?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  

waiting for new ignition system

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive



On Sep 15, 2008, at 1:40 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Mike, I know of only one blade departure on a GSC prop, but there  

 may be others.  It was a person right here on this list.  The  

 closeup photos of it indicated that it had a lot of wood rot inside  

 the hub supposedly from being left outside for extended periods.   

 I'm not defending GSC nor do I own one, but to satisfy my curiosity  

 I'd appreciate it if you would produce some of those cases that are  

 so well documented.  I couldn't find much.

 As I recall, IVO went through some very bad times and nearly closed  

 the doors after some of their props shed blades.  There were lots  

 of stories being circulated and IVO took a real beating from the  

 feeding frenzy that was spawned on the web.  Fortunately, they  

 recovered and they are now doing well, or at least they appear to.

 Thanks,

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  

 progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

No, Gary was swinging an NSI CAP with Warp blades, not a GSC.   See how 

these things evolve?  The Warp blade that departed stuck through his float 

so he was able to land and recover it for inspection.  Lots of damage, but 

the engine remained attached by the various wiring and throttle cables, etc.

He's lucky to have survived.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

On Mon, September 15, 2008 10:40 am, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Mike, I know of only one blade departure on a GSC prop, but there may be

 others.  It was a person right here on this list.  The closeup photos of it

 indicated that it had a lot of wood rot inside the hub supposedly from being

 left outside for extended periods.  I'm not defending GSC nor do I own one,

 but to satisfy my curiosity I'd appreciate it if you would produce some of

 those cases that are so well documented.  I couldn't find much.


	


Here's one documented and some factory comments about maintenance.



<http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/gsc_servicebulletin.htm>



Here's another due to blade strike during flight. GSC states 500 Hour TBO and posts a

link to the maintenance procedures.



<http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/propadvisory.htm>



Here's a 2006 posting from this list. Don't shim, buy new blades.



<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=86857&sid=336a7f8b7126385eb6eb3d9c86e2c280>



Here's a 1999 Service bulletin from GSC regarding 500 hour TBO



<http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/gscactualsb.doc>



Here's another article on a GSC failure from this list



<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67085>



Looks to me that finding a catastrophic failure that wasn't due to corrosion and rot

is not easily found. Quite a few hearsay claims but actually none that I could find.

Looks to me that what's consistent is:



1) exposure to water (rain) is something to be avoided due to corrosion and wood rot,

both of which lead to progressive failure.



2) don't exceed the 100 in-lb torque



3) TBO is 500 Hrs



4) Great factory support including telephone support.



Seems like a sound company and product to me. You've got to observe the limitations of

installation and usage. If you can't/won't then other options may be better suited for

you.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I researched propeller blade separations because I have a Kiev Hot Prop that has rave reviews for being quiet and efficient.    The prop did was wonderful in flight, but the lightness of the hub and thin diameter of the adapter always made me nervous.   I never did find any history of blade separations or hub failures on Kiev Hot props, but I constantly came across  GSC blade separations in my research.



When an airline maintenance inspector saw my prop and made made the comment that the hub looked to " Lightly Built " to resist fatigue over time, I bit the bullet and changed out the Kiev prop for a Warp drive.



The Cable around the engine is a great idea for the Kitfox I am building,  it would not help my Kolb much where the engine coming lose would probably cause the prop to slice the tail boom right off    



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I know of a blade separation on a challenger, but the prop was out of date 

AFAIK. GSC has been extremely cooperative for me on the phone, but I've 

elected to use the warp.

---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Good research, Paul.  The first link is the prop that belonged to one of our 

list members, but I forgot who it was.

GSC makes no secret of the limitations place on their props.  So long as 

those limitations are followed and the prop has proper care and servicing, I 

doubt there would ever be a problem.

Often a single failure, after making the rounds of the various forums and 

list servers and the anecdotal data piles up, can evolve into the appearance 

of the whole line of props are failure prone.  Usually, this is not so, but 

still causes enormous damage to the credibility of the company.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

It was his incident that prompted me to install a safety cable around  

my engine. His Rotax was probably also contained by the coolant  

hoses....having none of these, I opted to add the cable.

Damn, Deke, I'd better get to flying...your hours are starting to get  

close.  : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  new  

ignition system was sent out today

Flight possible this weekend...XX (fingers crossed)

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive



On Sep 15, 2008, at 2:39 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 No, Gary was swinging an NSI CAP with Warp blades, not a GSC.   See  

 how these things evolve?  The Warp blade that departed stuck  

 through his float so he was able to land and recover it for  

 inspection.  Lots of damage, but the engine remained attached by  

 the various wiring and throttle cables, etc.

 He's lucky to have survived.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I believe that Murle Williams (Award winning Kitfox builder and distributor of aircraft products) refuses to sell a GSC prop due to "departure" issues.

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 - Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

16/09/2008 02:17 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Your best solution to this problem would be to get a Warp Drive, Powerfin, or other composite propeller .  GSC props have bad history of losing entire blades resulting in crashes.  I did a lot of research on this subject, the cases are well documented on the net.  In the end I chose to buy a Warp drive prop.  I'm sure there will be some guys out there that will be offended by me pointing out the bad history of their favorite props, but this is the reality and well documented.  Good and accurate advice is far more important that trying to make everyone happy all the time.   I will be happy to start a thread post a bunch links to the GSC prop problems if need be...

 

 As everyone here says, the loss of a prop blade is very likely fatal.  The engine is ripped off the airplane in a fraction of a second ( Don't think you will have time to shut it off, its not humanly possible ), and the airplane is left uncontrollable due to the extreme tail heavy condition ( Down elevator wont be enough to keep it flying ).  Do yourself a favor, spend whatever it takes to fix or replace your prop.

 

 Mike

 

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 

 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4392#204392

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

I never lost a prop Lynn! - I lost  a leading edge protection strip on a GSC prop and the vibration from that caused a forced landing but there must be another Gary out there! 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

16/09/2008 03:37 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 If Gary Algate sees this, tell 'em about your lost prop incident,  

 Gary...that was a hairy ride, I'll bet.

 

 It might be that Deke is referring to Gary....eh, Deke?

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;  

 waiting for new ignition system

 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

 Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

 do not archive

 

 

 

 On Sep 15, 2008, at 1:40 PM, fox5flyer wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer"  

 > <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 >

 > Mike, I know of only one blade departure on a GSC prop, but there  

 > may be others.  It was a person right here on this list.  The  

 > closeup photos of it indicated that it had a lot of wood rot inside  

 > the hub supposedly from being left outside for extended periods.   

 > I'm not defending GSC nor do I own one, but to satisfy my curiosity  

 > I'd appreciate it if you would produce some of those cases that are  

 > so well documented.  I couldn't find much.

 > As I recall, IVO went through some very bad times and nearly closed  

 > the doors after some of their props shed blades.  There were lots  

 > of stories being circulated and IVO took a real beating from the  

 > feeding frenzy that was spawned on the web.  Fortunately, they  

 > recovered and they are now doing well, or at least they appear to.

 > Thanks,

 > Deke Morisse

 > Mikado Michigan

 > S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT

 > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  

 > progress."

 > - Joseph Joubert

 >

 

 -

 -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight

Gary Walsh, perhaps?

 Deke

  

 do not archive

  

 [quote]   ---

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