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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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 Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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Oops! Maybe it WAS Gary Walsh....Decision Labs sticks in my mind (or
something like that)....he had a prop blade come off, stick in his
float, and he made it back to land it and live to tell about
it...quite a story.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane; new
ignition system was sent out today
Flight possible this weekend...XX (fingers crossed)
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
do not archive
On Sep 15, 2008, at 7:20 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I never lost a prop Lynn! - I lost a leading edge protection strip
on a GSC prop and the vibration from that caused a forced landing
but there must be another Gary out there!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
16/09/2008 03:37 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight
If Gary Algate sees this, tell 'em about your lost prop incident,
Gary...that was a hairy ride, I'll bet.
It might be that Deke is referring to Gary....eh, Deke?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane;
waiting for new ignition system
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
do not archive
On Sep 15, 2008, at 1:40 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
>
> <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
>
> Mike, I know of only one blade departure on a GSC prop, but there
> may be others. It was a person right here on this list. The
> closeup photos of it indicated that it had a lot of wood rot inside
> the hub supposedly from being left outside for extended periods.
> I'm not defending GSC nor do I own one, but to satisfy my curiosity
> I'd appreciate it if you would produce some of those cases that are
> so well documented. I couldn't find much.
> As I recall, IVO went through some very bad times and nearly closed
> the doors after some of their props shed blades. There were lots
> of stories being circulated and IVO took a real beating from the
> feeding frenzy that was spawned on the web. Fortunately, they
> recovered and they are now doing well, or at least they appear to.
> Thanks,
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 397+ TT
> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
> progress."
> - Joseph Joubert
>
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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rudderdancer
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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Years ago I read of a blade departure followed by an engine departure on something like a Cub or Pacer. The pilot reacted by instantly putting the nose straight down to keep airspeed over the tail. He kept his decent angle steep and his airspeed up until he was as close a he possible could get to an open field. Then leveled off just feet off the ground for a forced landing. It was in a flying publication and was supposedly true. Just in case, I'll put in that cable around the engine like the air-racers do.
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J. Henry Hall
Kitfox II, 582, Tundra Tires,
jhenryhall@mac.com |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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That is nothing short of Amazing piloting skills. I would like to think that I would be able to correctly analyze the problem, and come up with correct solution and react in a split second like that guy did, but if I were a betting man, I would not put much money on it 
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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wtrooper(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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Here's an NTSB report of a midair in 2004 where a C-170 had its engine knocked off by a C-210 at 3500 feet. The C-170 pilot landed it.
[url=http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 040526X00672&ntsbno=SEA04FA083A&akey=1]http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 040526X00672&ntsbno=SEA04FA083A&akey=1[/url]
Bill
Chinook/912 in progress KLVK
still lurking on my favorite list these nine years
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 8:19 PM, rudderdancer <jhenryhall(at)mac.com (jhenryhall(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rudderdancer" <jhenryhall(at)mac.com (jhenryhall(at)mac.com)>
Years ago I read of a blade departure followed by an engine departure on something like a Cub or Pacer. The pilot reacted by instantly putting the nose straight down to keep airspeed over the tail. He kept his decent angle steep and his airspeed up until he was as close a he possible could get to an open field. Then leveled off just feet off the ground for a forced landing. It was in a flying publication and was supposedly true. Just in case, I'll put in that cable around the engine like the air-racers do.
--------
J. Henry Hall
Kitfox II, 582, Tundra Tires,
rusty pilot.
Read this topic online here:
[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4504#204504]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4504#204504[/url]
[b]
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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First the disclaimer - I have never owned a GSC or any other wooden prop,
but I think a check of the older archives will show that some would shim the
blade with thin paper and I think some even used fine sand paper. This was
from the old days when most guys were operating the factory GSC. Then
again, this was a long time ago and maybe my memory is worse than my wife
tells me it is.
I like the idea of the clearcoat - clever idea.
Lowell
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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A qick edit here as well, though it was a warp blade that departed, it was
the NSI CAP cuff that failed. The Warp blade was just on for the ride.
Lowell
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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How is that cable installed? Do not archive
Pat reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | Subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight
From: jhenryhall(at)mac.com
Date: Mon C 15 Sep 2008 20:19:08 -0700
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rudderdancer" <jhenryhall(at)mac.com>
Years ago I read of a blade departure followed by an engine departure on something like a Cub or Pacer. The pilot reacted by instantly putting the nose straight down to keep airspeed over the tail. He kept his decent angle steep and his airspeed up until he was as close a he possible could get to an open field. Then leveled off just feet off the ground for a forced landing. It was in a flying publication and was supposedly true. Just in case C I'll put in that cable around the engine like the air-racers do.
--------
J. Henry Hall
Kitfox II C 582 C Tundra Tires C
rusty pilot.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=204504#204504
> _====================
|
[quote][b]
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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I drilled two holes in the firewall right near the upper outside
engine mount cluster. Installed rubber grommets. Ran cable around
engine, through holes from the front side, overlapping behind
firewall and used 2 nicopress sleeves to connect cables. That was the
first time. Then when I recently r'd the engine, I decided to just
cut the cable and replace it. When I reinstalled the cable today, I
ran the cable from the back side of the firewall and around the
engine (just look at how it should be threaded around the starter,
motor mounts, etc. in order to retain the engine should something
happen), then clamped the cable ends together with 4 cable clamps,
1/8" in size. I put some shrink wrap on the cable ends to prevent
fraying.
Oh yeah, I ran the cable through some fuel line where it goes around
a corner, or would otherwise rub on the engine, mount frame tubing
etc. If the fuel line gets chewed up eventually through vibration, I
can unclamp the cable and replace the fuel line. (I didn't want to
just apply the fuel line by slicing it) Now I can unclamp and remove
the engine without having to wreck the cable each time....I tried to
cut the nicopress sleeves originally, but gave up, as they are TOUGH!
I admit that this isn't going to hold an engine dropped off a bridge,
but it should retain it somewhat in the original CG position and
allow for a landing. If not, well, your day wasn't gonna be too good
without it, so what can it hurt?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled and back in the plane; new
ignition system received today...WOW!
Flight possible this weekend...XX (fingers crossed)
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Sep 16, 2008, at 6:38 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
| Quote: | How is that cable installed?
Pat reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> Subject: Re: gsc props changing pitch in flight
> From: jhenryhall(at)mac.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:19:08 -0700
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
<jhenryhall(at)mac.com>
>
> Years ago I read of a blade departure followed by an engine
departure on something like a Cub or Pacer. The pilot reacted by
instantly putting the nose straight down to keep airspeed over the
tail. He kept his decent angle steep and his airspeed up until he
was as close a he possible could get to an open field. Then leveled
off just feet off the ground for a forced landing. It was in a
flying publication and was supposedly true. Just in case, I'll put
in that cable around the engine like the air-racers do.
>
> --------
> J. Henry Hall
> Kitfox II, 582, Tundra Tires,
> rusty pilot.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4504#204504
>
>
>
>
> > _====================
>
>
>
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: gsc props changing pitch in flight |
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Ok, now some of you guys are scaring me. Putting paper inside the hub or spraying clearcoat on blade roots to tighten them seems a bit uncertain to me when there is another, structurally-sound solution. Plastic and wood are structural materials that have known compression, wear, and weathering characteristics. Paper and clearcoat don’t each possess all three characteristics predictably.
After 100 hours on my 66” three-blade GSC prop, I machined the hubs by 0.020” to compensate for a reduced gap. The original gap had been “used up” in the first 100 hours through a number of re-torque cycles for experimental pitch adjustments. Since then, I’ve put an additional 225 hours on the prop.
I do two things that I consider vital to the GSC prop: each preflight includes checking the blades for security in the hub, plus I re-retorque the bolts every spring and fall. These are two things I learned to do after letting the blade sit, torqued to spec, for two years before my first engine run-up - it was quickly evident something was wrong. Thus, I realized very early on to not take this prop, or any other prop, for granted.
I am associated with a kitplane that had used a three-blade Ivoprop bolted to an O-540. One morning while we were preparing for a flight, the owner’s cell phone rang. An owner of a like-equipped aircraft called to warn that his prop had just thrown a blade during a ground run and resulted in the wrecking of 1/3 of the airframe. Weeks later the blade was found a quarter-mile away. In that design, now obsolete, the blades were expected to be retained by the shear-strength of two bolts plus a flat plate-clamping force but the bolt-holes ripped through. Ivoprop responsibly recalled them.
Certainly the fine folks at GSC have a liability to protect by invoking a 5yr/500 hour lifetime policy. However, it if weren’t for this forum, I’d have never known about this limitation.
I will propose that a rotted GSC blade root will not torque properly and thus would allow the hub gap to be immediately reduced to zero around that blade. I do NOT believe the use of shims of any kind should be used because they could either become compressed, thus loosening again unpredictably. Or if material denser than paper or clearcoat were used, I could imagine stress-risers developing on the hub and/or roots.
I DO believe that modestly machining material from the gap area can be effective and safe. My opinion is that the hub, as shipped from GSC, was gapped a little less than necessary for MY particular prop. However, I will not machine mine again should the gap reduce further, nor would I machine more than 0.020” from the gap.
Mike Perkins
[quote][b]
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