Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

LSA's and FAR 61.319

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

Following the various posts on LSA endorsements and reading 61.319, I was in the dark about the meaning of "sets of aircraft" so I called the FAA Light Sport Branch this morning for clarification. They explained it and referred me to: 



http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/aircraft_sets.pdf

 



So, here's the deal as explained by Tom, Rich and Joe (yes, it took all three to get the definitive answers). 

If your endorsement is for a tricycle gear aircraft whose maximum cruise speed is under  87 knots you are good to go in ALL tricycle gear LSA's, qualifying certified aircraft, or E-AB's (again provided they qualify to be flown by a sport pilot) that has a max cruise speed under 87 knots. This is a set of aircraft. 

 Same goes for taildraggers. If you flew a Kolb with a max cruise speed under 87 knots to get your endorsement, you can fly a Firefly, Firestar, Mk III, whatever. It doesn't even have to be a Kolb, perish the thought. As long as it drags its tail and cruises at less than 87 knots you're legal.

 HOWEVER, a set of aircraft is a set of aircraft and they are NOT backward compatible. If your endorsement is for AP-5 (tricycle gear max cruise greater than 87 knots you are NOT good to go in AP-1 (tricycle gear max cruise less than 87 knots). The same goes AP-6 and AP-2.

 This applies to Light Sport certificate holders ONLY. If you're a PPL pilot exercising the light sport privilege you need a tail dragger endorsement (unless you are grandfathered in) to fly a tail dragger and that's it.

 BFR's. They can't be done in a single place aircraft and getting one in a different set of aircraft does NOT equal an endorsement. If you satisfied your instructor that you qualified for the endorsement he/she can give it, but it's not automatic just because your BFR requirement is met.

 Hope this helps, and thanks for the discussion, it gives me an article for next month's newsletter.

Rick





  [quote][b]

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

Do you have the telephone number of the FAA Light Sport Branch?



I'm coming up on my biennial.  I took my original checkride in my single seat taildragger.  I know I can't take my biennial in it.  So I have a number of questions:

1. Can I get a biennial from any CFI, or do I need to get it from a DPE? (I think that right now we can get a Sport Pilot biennial from any CFI - and that's what the FAA is trying to change in the current NPRM.)

2. Do I need to take the biennial in a taildragger?  If I take it in a tricycle gear, it looks as though I can "pass" the biennial in a tricycle gear, but still will not be able to get a tricycle gear endorsement without instruction from one CFI (61.321a) and then getting a checkride from a different CFI (61.321b) and then applying to the FAA (61.321c) and when I get something back from them, going back to the proficiency checkride CFI and getting them to write a logbook endorsement. 



Thanks -



Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, Oregon



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Fri, 9/12/08, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

 To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 9:23 AM

 Following the various posts on LSA endorsements and reading

 61.319, I was in

 the dark about the meaning of "sets of aircraft"

 so I called the FAA Light

 Sport Branch this morning for clarification. They explained

 it and referred

 me to:

 http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/aircraft_sets.pdf

 

 So, here's the deal as explained by Tom, Rich and Joe

 (yes, it took all

 three to get the definitive answers).

 If your endorsement is for a tricycle gear aircraft whose

 maximum cruise

 speed is under  87 knots you are good to go in ALL tricycle

 gear LSA's,

 qualifying certified aircraft, or E-AB's (again

 provided they qualify to be

 flown by a sport pilot) that has a max cruise speed under

 87 knots. This is

 a set of aircraft.

 Same goes for taildraggers. If you flew a Kolb with a max

 cruise speed under

 87 knots to get your endorsement, you can fly a Firefly,

 Firestar, Mk III,

 whatever. It doesn't even have to be a Kolb, perish the

 thought. As long as

 it drags its tail and cruises at less than 87 knots

 you're legal.

 HOWEVER, a set of aircraft is a set of aircraft and they

 are NOT backward

 compatible. If your endorsement is for AP-5 (tricycle gear

 max cruise

 greater than 87 knots you are NOT good to go in AP-1

 (tricycle gear max

 cruise less than 87 knots). The same goes AP-6 and AP-2.

 This applies to Light Sport certificate holders ONLY. If

 you're a PPL pilot

 exercising the light sport privilege you need a tail

 dragger endorsement

 (unless you are grandfathered in) to fly a tail dragger and

 that's it.

 BFR's. They can't be done in a single place

 aircraft and getting one in a

 different set of aircraft does NOT equal an endorsement. If

 you satisfied

 your instructor that you qualified for the endorsement

 he/she can give it,

 but it's not automatic just because your BFR

 requirement is met.

 Hope this helps, and thanks for the discussion, it gives me

 an article for

 next month's newsletter.

 

 Rick

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

Arty, 1-405-954-6400.



Rick



On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:52 AM, TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com (thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com (thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com)>

  

 Do you have the telephone number of the FAA Light Sport Branch?

 

 I'm coming up on my biennial.  I took my original checkride in my single seat taildragger.  I know I can't take my biennial in it.  So I have a number of questions:

 1. Can I get a biennial from any CFI, or do I need to get it from a DPE? (I think that right now we can get a Sport Pilot biennial from any CFI - and that's what the FAA is trying to change in the current NPRM.)

 2. Do I need to take the biennial in a taildragger?  If I take it in a tricycle gear, it looks as though I can "pass" the biennial in a tricycle gear, but still will not be able to get a tricycle gear endorsement without instruction from one CFI (61.321a) and then getting a checkride from a different CFI (61.321b) and then applying to the FAA (61.321c) and when I get something back from them, going back to the proficiency checkride CFI and getting them to write a logbook endorsement.

  

 Thanks -

 

 Arty Trost

 Maxair Drifter

 Sandy, Oregon

 

 

 

 www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com

 

 "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                       Helen Keller

 

 "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

 

 

 --- On Fri, 9/12/08, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 > From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

 > To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
	


 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 9:23 AM

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Following the various posts on LSA endorsements and reading

 > 61.319, I was in
	


 > the dark about the meaning of "sets of aircraft"

 > so I called the FAA Light

 > Sport Branch this morning for clarification. They explained

 > it and referred

 > me to:

 > http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/aircraft_sets.pdf

  >

 > So, here's the deal as explained by Tom, Rich and Joe

 > (yes, it took all

 > three to get the definitive answers).

 > If your endorsement is for a tricycle gear aircraft whose

 > maximum cruise

 > speed is under  87 knots you are good to go in ALL tricycle

 > gear LSA's,

 > qualifying certified aircraft, or E-AB's (again

 > provided they qualify to be

 > flown by a sport pilot) that has a max cruise speed under

 > 87 knots. This is

 > a set of aircraft.

 > Same goes for taildraggers. If you flew a Kolb with a max

 > cruise speed under

 > 87 knots to get your endorsement, you can fly a Firefly,

 > Firestar, Mk III,

 > whatever. It doesn't even have to be a Kolb, perish the

 > thought. As long as

 > it drags its tail and cruises at less than 87 knots

 > you're legal.

 > HOWEVER, a set of aircraft is a set of aircraft and they

 > are NOT backward

 > compatible. If your endorsement is for AP-5 (tricycle gear

 > max cruise

 > greater than 87 knots you are NOT good to go in AP-1

 > (tricycle gear max

 > cruise less than 87 knots). The same goes AP-6 and AP-2.

 > This applies to Light Sport certificate holders ONLY. If

 > you're a PPL pilot

 > exercising the light sport privilege you need a tail

 > dragger endorsement

 > (unless you are grandfathered in) to fly a tail dragger and

 > that's it.

 > BFR's. They can't be done in a single place

 > aircraft and getting one in a

 > different set of aircraft does NOT equal an endorsement. If

 > you satisfied

 > your instructor that you qualified for the endorsement

 > he/she can give it,

 > but it's not automatic just because your BFR

 > requirement is met.

 > Hope this helps, and thanks for the discussion, it gives me

 > an article for

 > next month's newsletter.

 >

 > Rick

 

 

 

 

 



[b]

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: LSA's and FAR 61.319

I had my Flight Review last Wednesday in my Kolbra. The CFI knew very little about LSA's and Sport Pilot. I acted as PIC while he gave me instructions from the back seat. Not all CFI's are willing to take a ride in a light experimental aircraft. He had a lot of questions about the aircraft and the 912 engine. Normally the ground portion takes an hour and the flight an hour. He took 3.5 hours because he had questions and I let him fly the plane to get familiar with it. He pulled the power while I glided to a safe landing. I asked him if other GA pilots were able to make it to the field and land. He told me many needed a second try as they don't normally pull the power back while in the pattern. He was very thorough, more than my checkride two years ago. There is something to be said for all that ultralight experience. All went well and he signed my logbook.  I'm good to go for another two years.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: LSA's and FAR 61.319

A proficiency check is a testing process and that is what the FAA is proposing to change in the new NPRM. That is not a Biennial Flight Review. By definition, a Biennial Flight Review is INSTRUCTION. The FARS specify a minimum of one hour of ground instruction and one hour of flight instruction to qualify as a BFR. There is no pass/fail and ANY CFI can provide this service.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

At 01:55 PM 9/19/2008, Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  By definition, a Biennial Flight Review is INSTRUCTION. The FARS specify a 

minimum of one hour of ground instruction and one hour of flight 

instruction to qualify as a BFR. There is no pass/fail...


	


Well, yes and no.  If you "fail" your logbook shows only dual instruction, 

not a completed BFR.



-Dana



--

  This is an Uzi.  This is an Uzi on full auto.  Any questions?

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

You mean if I smash that rattley old C-150 into oblivion I won't get  

my BFR signed off?

Rats!

BTW did anyone notice the C-162 test plane spiraled in?  Pilot bailed  

out successfully.

Maybe it shouldn't be held in a spin for more than one turn.

I don't know about the rest of youze guyz but after one turn I'm  

usually satisfied.

BB

On 19, Sep 2008, at 5:25 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 01:55 PM 9/19/2008, Thom Riddle wrote:

> By definition, a Biennial Flight Review is INSTRUCTION. The FARS  

> specify a minimum of one hour of ground instruction and one hour  

> of flight instruction to qualify as a BFR. There is no pass/fail...

 Well, yes and no.  If you "fail" your logbook shows only dual  

 instruction, not a completed BFR.

 -Dana

 --

  This is an Uzi.  This is an Uzi on full auto.  Any questions?

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: LSA's and FAR 61.319

Dana,

In the spirit of friendly hair-splitting.... I say yes and no, to your yes and no. 



Yes, if the CFI is not satisfied with the pilot's performance after the MINIMUM one hour of ground and one hour of dual, s/he can state this and ask the pilot to continue with the instruction past these minimums or schedule another instructional session. The CFI is not required to endorse the pilot's logbook until he is satisfied, but he cannot stop the pilot from continuing to fly as long as his/her old BFR is still current.



No, in the sense that an examiner in a proficiency test of check-ride (not a BFR) can "fail" the pilot and must send paperwork to the FAA stating this. Also, there are specific procedures for scheduling a re-take of a proficiency test or check-ride. Neither of these are required for a BFR.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

At 05:48 PM 9/19/2008, robert bean wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW did anyone notice the C-162 test plane spiraled in?  Pilot bailed

out successfully.

Maybe it shouldn't be held in a spin for more than one turn.

I don't know about the rest of youze guyz but after one turn I'm

usually satisfied.


	


I always liked to do spins.  Did 20 turns in a 150 once, then was hugely 

amused to read in Flying magazine the very next day that "what it does 

after 6 turns is unknown...".



Could be they were doing aft C.G. tests in the 162.  That could make a spin 

"unrecoverable".



-Dana

--

  Everyone who lives dies; yet not everyone who dies, has lived.

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

At 06:33 PM 9/19/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

At 05:48 PM 9/19/2008, robert bean wrote:

>BTW did anyone notice the C-162 test plane spiraled in?  Pilot bailed

>out successfully.

I always liked to do spins.  Did 20 turns in a 150 once, then was 

hugely amused to read in Flying magazine the very next day that 

"what it does after 6 turns is unknown...".

Could be they were doing aft C.G. tests in the 162.  That could make 

a spin "unrecoverable".

-Dana

The C-162 Skycatcher, made in China and still cost $110,000

_________________
Possum

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: LSA's and FAR 61.319

maybe they'll rename it the turf snatcher



On 19, Sep 2008, at 8:53 PM, possums wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 06:33 PM 9/19/2008, you wrote:

> 

>

> At 05:48 PM 9/19/2008, robert bean wrote:

>

>> BTW did anyone notice the C-162 test plane spiraled in?  Pilot  

>> bailed

>> out successfully.

>

> I always liked to do spins.  Did 20 turns in a 150 once, then was  

> hugely amused to read in Flying magazine the very next day that  

> "what it does after 6 turns is unknown...".

>

> Could be they were doing aft C.G. tests in the 162.  That could  

> make a spin "unrecoverable".

>

> -Dana



 The C-162 Skycatcher, made in China and still cost $110,000

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum