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cockpit module alignment

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Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

I've managed to be ill in bed with a fever during the recent dry 

weather and so missed a chance to do the spar bush alignemnt stuff 

outdoors, but I have another problem that's bothering me.



I attach 6 fairly small pictures which I hope illustrate what I'm 

talking about.



I have fitted the bearings for both ends of the CS05 torque tubes and 

was pretty happy with the way it was all going until I put the 

cockpit module into the lower fuselage moulding (see picture 

DSCN2491.jpg) to do the check of stick movement as advised in the 

manual (page 13-10). If I don't sit in the CM, all is fine and 

movement of the sticks is constrained only by the cockpit sides and 

tunnel. However, when I sit in it, the movement is considerably 

reduced; with only about 100mm deflection left or right from centre 

at the top of the stick, there's a graunching noise as the corners of 

CS07/08 scrape against the fuselage floor.



You'll see in the picture that the outlines of the brown foam inserts 

in the lower moulding don't seem to have any real relationship with 

the various cutouts and shapes of the CM. I'd have thought that 

perhaps they would line up in places. They are not even symmetrical 

port & starboard (the seats, on my CM anyway, have slightly different 

shapes P & S).



I phoned up the factory when I found this and Roger assured me that 

all will be well when the CM & lower moulding are bonded and thus 

stiffened. However, as I look at things more closely, I am not much 

comforted by that.



The cockpit flange at the bottom of the seat backrest is supported by 

only fresh air, in the middle of the green area across the middle of 

picture DSCN2496.jpg, and any pressure on the seat pan will bend the 

CM down into that depression. That causes CS07/08 to touch the 

fuselage floor where the small black marks can be seen on the brown 

area at the rear of the green stripe. I checked that the clearance 

for CS07/08 is correct (~6mm) as per the manual (picture 

DSCN2501.jpg), but the depression in the green stripe is about 4mm 

deep (picture DSCN2513.jpg) so if the CM is pushed down ito that 

locally the clearance will be badly compromised.



Picture DSCN2515.jpg shows the width of the green depression, with a 

ruler placed against the port CS07/08 witness mark. The depression 

lies from about 25mm to 100mm on the ruler. Picture DSCN2516.jpg 

shows the same ruler positioned on the CM underside against CS07, 

demonstrating that the CM flange across the seat-backs falls between 

the 25mm mark and the 100mm mark.



I think the engineering solution is to put packing between the CM and 

the fuselage where there is no foam layer, so that the Redux will not 

need to bridge the full 4mm gap. But what packing? It's got to be at 

least as strong as the Redux. Maybe I should go the (expensive) route 

of putting in a layer of Redux first with release film to fill the 

gap, as I did on the ribs when closing the wings.



Has anyone else found this problem? Or is my CM/fuselage moulding a 

mismatched pair?



All input appreciated!



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

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tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I phoned up the factory when I found this and Roger assured me that

all will be well when the CM & lower moulding are bonded and thus
	


stiffened. However, as I look at things more closely, I am not much

comforted by that.



Rowland, I don't think that you have a problem. There is a lot of

flexibility in the bottom molding until the cockpit module is bonded in.

I did a similar "pre flight" test sitting in the cockpit module before

it had been bonded in and had exactly the same result. Once the module

is bonded everything stiffens up quite considerably and you'll find that

the clearance that you currently have without the weight of your body on

it will be maintained.



Tony

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the engineering solution is to put packing between the CM and 

 the fuselage where there is no foam layer, so that the Redux will not 

 need to bridge the full 4mm gap.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   There is a lot of flexibility in the bottom molding until the cockpit 

 module is bonded in.


	


Rowland,



I'd tend to go along w/ Tony K's comment, though I did not experience 

the issue you're having. One consideration may be your method of 

supporting the canoe. I built one of Chuck Popenoe's knock down support 

frames (3/4" plywood formers w/ foam pipe insulation spaced w/ 2 x 4s 

running fore and aft) which gives much more support than the sketch of 

the support frame provided me by Europa back in 200?. In any case, 

don't hesitate to lay the Redux on thick when the time comes to bond in 

the CM and take care as to not localize pressure with blocking and 

strapping.



Hope this helps,



Fred

A194

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

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hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

Hello Rowland,



Sorry to learn you have been crook but nice to know you are back on deck 

again.



 	  Quote: 	
		   However, when I sit in it, the movement is considerably

 reduced; with only about 100mm deflection left or right from centre

 at the top of the stick, there's a graunching noise as the corners of

 CS07/08 scrape against the fuselage floor.


	


I had the same problem with the bottom corners of the CS08s contacting the

fuselage floor.  My solution for this was to locally remove the inner glass

plies and then to sand out the foam leaving it chamfered around the edges to

ramp back up to the floor level.  I then laid up two plies of bid into the

indentation lapping over the edges of the floor previously cut.  This gives

the best part of 3mm extra clearance.

I also filed away any excess material on the bottom corners of the CS08s as

well.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You'll see in the picture that the outlines of the brown foam inserts

 in the lower moulding don't seem to have any real relationship with

 the various cut-outs and shapes of the CM. I'd have thought that

 perhaps they would line up in places. They are not even symmetrical

 port & starboard (the seats, on my CM anyway, have slightly different

 shapes P & S).


	


I understand where you are coming from with this Rowland.  It is a long

while since I did mine but from memory, all of the cockpit module parts to

be bonded should mate with glass only sections in the fuselage.  It his is 

not the case, would

removing some extra material from the module allow this?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The cockpit flange at the bottom of the seat backrest is supported by

 only fresh air, in the middle of the green area across the middle of

 picture DSCN2496.jpg, and any pressure on the seat pan will bend the

 CM down into that depression.


	


Is this because some parts of the module are resting on foam sandwiched

areas of the fuselage as mentioned in my last comment ?



 	  Quote: 	
		    That causes CS07/08 to touch the

 fuselage floor where the small black marks can be seen on the brown

 area at the rear of the green stripe. I checked that the clearance

 for CS07/08 is correct (~6mm) as per the manual (picture

 DSCN2501.jpg), but the depression in the green stripe is about 4mm

 deep (picture DSCN2513.jpg) so if the CM is pushed down into that

 locally the clearance will be badly compromised.


	


Assuming I am understanding this correctly, if the module is lowered such 

that the

cockpit flange at the bottom of the seat backrest contacts the glass only

area, the interference with the bottom of the CS08s will be worse, hence

the need to remove material locally as mentioned above.



Hope I have made SOME sense Rowland.



Best regards

Kingsley in Oz

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: cockpit module alignment

Hi! Rowland.

No pictures received, however seems to me that you are expecting the

structure to take your weight before bonding without the stiffening

provided by the bonding. This is not how it all works !

Assuming the control stick movements are not stiff prior to bonding the

CM in place (perhaps you can recall my oscillating with brasso etc.

items to free off? Also check you have the assembly rivets correctly

oriented in the control tubes (if the push rods have rivets at the top

and bottom they can rub against the larger torque tubes internally, they

need to be off the vertical centre line)

Firstly put a nice (considerable radius) on the corners of the CS07/08

items. With a dummy run of module inserted and fuselage very adquately

supported so that the sides are the correct width (without stress).Then

mark out all the places that the CM abuts or is supposed to abut the

fuselage. Remove the CM and apply thick layers of stiff Redux to the

previously marked areas. Then apply similar redux to the mating areas of

the CM. Then carefully lift the CM into place allowing it to settle down

without undue bending pressure likley to deform it from it's natural

shape.

The redux where too thick will squelch out from the bond areas but stay

in place in the clear gap areas. If you shine a strong light behind all

the join areas you will highlight all places needing attention. Scrape

off all surplus Redux which has squelched out and trowel this spare

redux into area's where there's gaps or shortage ensuring the width

areas are suitably abutted with one or two LOOSELY applied pop

rivets.(Rivets only partly extended)Wipe out areas of remaining surplus

and leave to cure. Bingo! 

IMHO do not pull the flanges of the CM down where they are gapped

because:-

 a) you stress everthing up 

 b) you make indentations on the outer fuselage surface needing filler

to fill them. 

You will ultimately use less weight of Redux than the larger areas of

filler needed and for my money I'd rather ride on Redux than filler as a

structure !

Further don't mess with release agent or cling film you will not get a

good bond, I say again just fill all the gaps with trowelled Redux.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG 



--

patkinson

Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 15

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: cockpit module alignment

Rowland

I agree with all the comments so far but would just add that it is a good

idea to do a dry run first using whatever method you have decided on to hold

it all together, be it clecos, rivets, straps, etc.  This will help you get

the best fit and give you a chance to check that there is no interference

with the controls,



Regards



Paul Atkinson 



--

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-23 09:03 +1200 Tony Krzyzewski wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Rowland, I don't think that you have a problem. There is a lot of

flexibility in the bottom molding until the cockpit module is bonded in.

I did a similar "pre flight" test sitting in the cockpit module before

it had been bonded in and had exactly the same result. Once the module

is bonded everything stiffens up quite considerably and you'll find that

the clearance that you currently have without the weight of your body on

it will be maintained.


	


Tony - that sounds good theory, but how in practice do I ensure that 

everything stays where it ought to while doing the cockpit module 

bonding?



I haven't yet done all the drilling and cleco-ing that is called out 

in the manual page 11-6 (trial fit of CM) to fit the CM as closely to 

the lower fuselage moulding as possible, and fear that I could easily 

make things worse instead of better during that process. It says 

"drill and cleco other areas until your cockpit module is a snug fit" 

but I can't see how you get a snug fit of the relatively flat CM 

surfaces against the fuselage moulding which goes up and down at 

every edge of the brown foam inserts.



The manual also says "Use as few clecos as is necessary to fit the 

module to the bottom moulding. Remember that when you come to bond 

the module into the fuselage bottom moulding you will be able to 

locally weight down any small areas that need it". If I were to weigh 

down the aft end of either seat-centre tunnel, that would ruin the 

CS07/08 clearance.



Why doesn't the area of the CM around the CS06 rear bearing actually 

rest on the fuselage floor? It seems crazy to take care setting up 

the clearance for parts at the aft end of the torque tube, and then 

leave it dangling in fresh air.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-23 04:08 +0000 <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I didn't like my clearance between CS07/08 and

fuse, so after checking with Nev, cut a bit more off the bottom and

rounded more the edges


	


Ron - thanks for the message.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I had to grind a lot to get even a close fit on the front where

the CPM attaches to the firewall so would have not to fill a canyon


	


I couldn't take much off there without getting into the glass, but 

the gap left does not seem large in the general scale of things. It 

doesn't look like the 4mm or so that exists between the CM seat-back 

flange and the fuselage floor.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I ran

like you said a first pass with redux/flox on a few areas that required a

large fill


	


I may not do that, as the main reason for doing it on the wings was 

that you can't see how it's gone after the final bond has been made, 

and on the CM there is much better visibility.



 	  Quote: 	
		  In same picture good

idea to put on a 1 ply strip of uni so you can later install tie rod!


	


Thanks for that tip.



Reply copied to list as Ron's reply came only to me.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-23 16:21 +1000 Kingsley Hurst wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I had the same problem with the bottom corners of the CS08s contacting the

fuselage floor.  My solution for this was to locally remove the inner glass

plies and then to sand out the foam


	


Kingsley - thanks for your message. I thought about that , but I 

think I'd need clearance from an inspector to proceed with that.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I also filed away any excess material on the bottom corners of the CS08s


	


I'd only get about 1mm or less by doing that - they're pretty close 

to the screw heads already, although any extra clearance would be 

welcome.



 	  Quote: 	
		  from memory, all of the cockpit module parts to

be bonded should mate with glass only sections in the fuselage.  It 

his is not the case, would

removing some extra material from the module allow this?


	


All the CM flanges around the seat area (and the ply thigh-support 

ribs) mate with brown foam areas on the lower fuselage moulding - it 

covers all the central bottom area of the lower moulding (see the 

pictures attached to the first posting). The only CM bottom flanges 

NOT resting on foam are the outboard and rear edges of the seat pan, 

although the one at the port side is wide enough to catch the foam at 

its inboard edge.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Is this because some parts of the module are resting on foam sandwiched

areas of the fuselage as mentioned in my last comment


	


Yes - see above.



 	  Quote: 	
		  if the module is lowered such that the

cockpit flange at the bottom of the seat backrest contacts the glass only

area, the interference with the bottom of the CS08s will be worse


	


Yes. But the module doesn't lower into that position naturally; only 

if pressure is applied at the back of the seat pan does the CM 

distort to allow that flange to contact the plain glass area of the 

fuselage floor.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hope I have made SOME sense Rowland


	


Yes, I think we are on the same wavelength, but I'm still a bit puzzled.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-22 20:39 -0700 Fred Klein wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  One consideration may be your method of supporting the canoe


	


Fred - thanks for your comments. I am (at present) using an old door 

on castors with wedges at the ends for support - see the pictures on 

my website at 

<http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/fuselage_dolly.html>. The 

fuselage floor is relatively flat where the seat-backs are, and it is 

in contact with the door almost all the way across at that fuselage 

station. This matches the pretty flat profile across the width of the 

cockpit module underside.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I built one of Chuck Popenoe's knock down support frames


	


I did consider something similar but laziness won! It would be great 

if someone made a file of fuselage profile measurements for cutting 

support formers.



 	  Quote: 	
		  don't hesitate to lay the Redux on thick when the time comes to bond 

in the CM and take care as to not localize pressure with blocking 

and strapping


	


That all sounds good advice, thanks.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-23 09:27 +0100 Robert C Harrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  seems to me that you are expecting the

structure to take your weight before bonding


	


Bob - thanks for your message. I can see now that I was associating 

the 2 different instructions on page 13-10 in an inappropriate way.



Near the top of the page it says "orientate the column such that the 

tube cranks aft and slightly inboard so that there is equal space 

between it and each of your thighs" and obviously you have to sit in 

it to check that positioning.



But near the bottom of the page it says "check that the minimum 

control movement that can be achieved without interference, is 22.5 

cm (9") fore and aft and 28 cm (11") laterally" but it does NOT say 

you should be sitting in it for that check; I had just mentally 

connected the two!



 	  Quote: 	
		  Assuming the control stick movements are not stiff prior to bonding the

CM in place


	


No problem there - without the sticks fitted the weight of just the 

aileron cross-link pushrod is enough to make it all fall to neutral 

with the CM upside-down. I used good-quality furniture wax 

(non-silicone) instead of grease on the Tufnol parts and that seems 

to have worked well. I also included plastic shims when assembling 

CS02/03/04 - see my website journal at 

<http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/200808.html> for the whole 

story. Note later also the method of inserting thin wires to keep 

CS05 & CS02/3 co-axial and thus avoid any binding between the front 

and rear bearings.



 	  Quote: 	
		  a dummy run of module inserted and fuselage very adquately

supported so that the sides are the correct width (without stress)


	


This seems a good idea, but how is that correct width determined? I 

can't immediately see any reference for that dimension.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Further don't mess with release agent or cling film you will not get a

good bond


	


I found that when I did this on the wings, the hardest part was 

getting the gap-filling cured Redux abraded again enough to key 

properly with the final coat. But in the wings it was more desirable 

to do it that way, as it's not possible to see where there is excess 

or insufficient Redux at final bond time. For the CM bonding, most of 

the areas are visible during the whole process or can be made so by a 

strong light.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

At 2008-09-23 12:14 +0100 Paul Atkinson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  it is a good

idea to do a dry run first


	


Paul - thanks, yes, I am a great believer in the dry run, even down 

to "where will I put the pot of Redux so I don't knock it over with 

my elbow when trying to persuade the already-applied Redux to go 

where I want it?"



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1110 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

Rowland,



 	  Quote: 	
		   All the CM flanges around the seat area (and the ply thigh-support ribs) 

 mate with brown foam areas on the lower fuselage moulding - it covers all 

 the central bottom area of the lower moulding (see the pictures attached 

 to the first posting). The only CM bottom flanges NOT resting on foam are 

 the outboard and rear edges of the seat pan, although the one at the port 

 side is wide enough to catch the foam at its inboard edge.


	


Because I have little trust in my memory anymore, I pulled my fuse out of 

the trailer this morning to check.  Parts of my module DO mate with the 

foamed areas of the fuselage but where they do, the module is rebated to 

accomodate this.  Does your module not have any rebated sections?  There is 

a slight joggle where the rebated sections start but they are not very 

prominent..



 	  Quote: 	
		  >My solution for this was to locally remove the inner glass

>plies and then to sand out the foam

Kingsley - thanks for your message. I thought about that , but I think I'd 

need clearance from an inspector to proceed with that.


	


It must be a pain not being able to make a small change like this without 

jumping through hoops etc.  It was once like the UK over here too but thank 

goodness, we have the Experimental Regulations here now.

Maybe you can raise the rear bushes a little. . . . I too had the rear 

bushes installed as per the book but as I said previously, they turned out 

not to be quite high enough.



I hope you can get on top of your hitch at the moment Rowland.  There is 

always a reason and a cure but properly identifying the problems can often 

not be the easiest thing to do.



All the best

Kingsley

r.collings(at)onetel.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: cockpit module alignment

I had the same problem and was told to remove the foam locally from the 

inside of the fuselage where it was contacting the torque tube and then 

patch over the exposed area with 2 ply of bid there by creating the 

clearance required. Regards richard

---

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