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Oil leak

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december29(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Oil leak

Hi all,

   Searched the archives but have a "new" oil  leak location. Anyone had one on the mechanical fuel pump?  I have a total  of 58 hours on the pump and it appears that the oil is wicking out of the top of  the stainless screws that sandwich the whole pump together.  First off, are  they supposed to be safety wired, because mine are not (came from the "factory"  that way). The aft face of the engine that the pump mounts to is  dry.

   It is not a big leak, but one just the  same.  I will try the solvent and Dr. Scholl's to confirm.  But anyone  with something like this?

  

 Very lubed,

  

 John

 N802RJ

 "Rockin' Robin"

   [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: Oil leak

Yes, I have been fighting it on my Mooney. Tightening the screws I could 

get to reduced the problem a lot. Next time I can get in there, I will 

replace the pump.

I have an IO-360-A1A with an AC high pressure mechanical pump.



John Porter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi all,

   Searched the archives but have a "new" oil leak location. Anyone had 

 one on the mechanical fuel pump?  I have a total of 58 hours on the 

 pump and it appears that the oil is wicking out of the top of the 

 stainless screws that sandwich the whole pump together.  First off, 

 are they supposed to be safety wired, because mine are not (came from 

 the "factory" that way). The aft face of the engine that the pump 

 mounts to is dry.

   It is not a big leak, but one just the same.  I will try the solvent 

 and Dr. Scholl's to confirm.  But anyone with something like this?

  

 Very lubed,

  

 John

 N802RJ

 "Rockin' Robin"

 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rice737(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Oil leak

Hey John C

  

 I have a TMX IO360 and have the same problem. I already replaced the pump once C and the new one is doing the same thing. I've retorqued the screws and bolts C but that has not solved the problem.  I have to do some research to find a differend pump as well as call Mattituck and talk to them about it.  Mine is also not leaking enough that I worry about it in flight C but I do have to clean the belly a lot.  Let us know how you make out.  

   

 From: december29(at)bellsouth.net

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RV-List: Oil leak

Date: Sat C 20 Sep 2008 14:43:40 -0400

     Hi all C

   Searched the archives but have a "new" oil leak location. Anyone had one on the mechanical fuel pump?  I have a total of 58 hours on the pump and it appears that the oil is wicking out of the top of the stainless screws that sandwich the whole pump together.  First off C are they supposed to be safety wired C because mine are not (came from the "factory" that way). The aft face of the engine that the pump mounts to is dry.

   It is not a big leak C but one just the same.  I will try the solvent and Dr. Scholl's to confirm.  But anyone with something like this?

  

 Very lubed C

  

 John

 N802RJ

 "Rockin' Robin"

[quote]



get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

december29(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Oil Leak

Paul,

   Yep, that's exactly what I'm getting.   I have a Lycoming AEIO-360 and it's just enough to get my attention.  I'm  going to pull my pump as well and use some permetex on it and we torque  everything.  I can't stand seeing oil on the outside of  something. (Now when the new "radial" RV comes out, that will be another  story, ha,ha)  Oh, Van swore me to secrecy on  that.................darn.

   Thanks for the input, glad (I guess) that  I'm not the only one with this issue.

  

 John

 N802RJ

 "Rockin' Robin"

   [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Oil Leak

OK guys ...... where exactly is the oil coming out???  Lead me to it 

just like a progressive taxi 

Linn

do not archive



John Porter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Paul,

   Yep, that's exactly what I'm getting.  I have a Lycoming AEIO-360 

 and it's just enough to get my attention.  I'm going to pull my pump 

 as well and use some permetex on it and we torque everything.  I can't 

 stand seeing oil on the outside of something. (Now when the new 

 "radial" RV comes out, that will be another story, ha,ha)  Oh, Van 

 swore me to secrecy on that.................darn.

   Thanks for the input, glad (I guess) that I'm not the only one with 

 this issue.

  

 John

 N802RJ

 "Rockin' Robin"

 *

 *

rice737(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Oil Leak

The oil leaks out between the parts of the oil pump itself C not the flang between the pump and the engine.  The pump is made up of three sections C the upper is has screw head bolts attaching it to the middle section C and the lower has hex heads with rubber gaskets between.  They go thru a compression ring around the bottom C I can remember the top right now C so you can only tighten them up so much.  I seems over tightening will just crush the rubber gasket out of the sides causing more of a leak.  I don't know about taking it apart and using the permetex C I really don't want to take my pump apart if I can help it.  

  

 Paul Rice

 RV8  100 hours

 Flying Siren



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Wed C 24 Sep 2008 10:20:10 -0400

 From: pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: Oil Leak

 

 --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

 

 OK guys ...... where exactly is the oil coming out??? Lead me to it 

 just like a progressive taxi 

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 John Porter wrote:

 > Paul C

 > Yep C that's exactly what I'm getting. I have a Lycoming AEIO-360 

 > and it's just enough to get my attention. I'm going to pull my pump 

 > as well and use some permetex on it and we torque everything. I can't 

 > stand seeing oil on the outside of something. (Now when the new 

 > "radial" RV comes out C that will be another story C ha Cha) Oh C Van 

 > swore me to secrecy on that.................darn.

 > Thanks for the input C glad (I guess) that I'm not the only one with 

 > this issue.

 > 

 > John

 > N802RJ

 > "Rockin' Robin"

 > *

 >

 >

 > *

 

 > 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

rv4ross(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Oil Leak

Paul,

   You mean fuel pump and not oil pump,  right?

  

 Ross Scroggs

 RV4  tail and wings done waiting on Fus  kit

 Locust Grove, GA.

 [quote]   ---

rice737(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Oil Leak

Sorry guys C yes I mean the fuel pump not the oil pump.

 



 

   

 From: rv4ross(at)charter.net

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Oil Leak

Date: Wed C 24 Sep 2008 10:49:56 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Paul C

   You mean fuel pump and not oil pump C right?

  

 Ross Scroggs

 RV4  tail and wings done waiting on Fus kit

 Locust Grove C GA.

 [quote] ---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Oil Leak

I went out to the shop and looked at the pump on my IO-540.  There are 

four sections, the top, a 1/4" ring, a 1/2" ring with the fuel ports in 

it, and the bottom.  There are diaphragms separating the four parts.  

The 1/4" ring is the flow path for fuel if that diaphragm cracks, and 

oil if the other one cracks.  If the oil is seeping out next to the 

diaphragm (the top one), that would indicate loose fasteners, or a 

deterioration of the diaphragm itself.   Permatex may 'fix' the latter 

.... for a while, but only prolongs the inevitable ..... getting it 

fixed. My vote would be to try and tighten the screws on the top flange 

to see if that eliminates the leak.  All this supposes that the leak is 

where you think it is!!!

Linn

do not archive

Paul Rice wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The oil leaks out between the parts of the oil pump itself, not the 

 flang between the pump and the engine.  The pump is made up of three 

 sections, the upper is has screw head bolts attaching it to the middle 

 section, and the lower has hex heads with rubber gaskets between.  

 They go thru a compression ring around the bottom, I can remember the 

 top right now, so you can only tighten them up so much.  I seems over 

 tightening will just crush the rubber gasket out of the sides causing 

 more of a leak.  I don't know about taking it apart and using the 

 permetex, I really don't want to take my pump apart if I can help it. 

  

 Paul Rice

 RV8  100 hours

 Flying Siren

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Oil Leak

Paul,

 Those aren't "rubber gaskets". They are the rubber diaphragms which do the pumping of the fuel. If the screws which retain the sections are reasonably tight, it means that one of the diaphragms has failed. In that case you will need a new or rebuilt fuel pump.

Charlie Kuss

--- On Wed, 9/24/08, Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com>

 Subject: RE: RE: Oil Leak

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 10:43 AM

 The oil leaks out between the parts of the oil pump itself,

 not the flange between the pump and the engine.  The pump is

 made up of three sections, the upper is has screw head bolts

 attaching it to the middle section, and the lower has hex

 heads with rubber gaskets between.  They go thru a

 compression ring around the bottom, I can remember the top

 right now, so you can only tighten them up so much.  I seems

 over tightening will just crush the rubber gasket out of the

 sides causing more of a leak.  I don't know about taking

 it apart and using the permetex, I really don't want to

 take my pump apart if I can help it.  

 Paul Rice

 RV8  100 hours

 Flying Siren> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:20:10 -0400>

 From: pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> To:

 rv-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Re: RE: Oil

 Leak> > 

 <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>> > OK guys ......

 where exactly is the oil coming out??? Lead me to it >

 just like a progressive taxi > Linn> do not

 archive> > John Porter wrote:> > Paul,> >

 Yep, that's exactly what I'm getting. I have a

 Lycoming AEIO-360 > > and it's just enough to get

 my attention. I'm going to pull my pump > > as

 well and use some permetex on it and we torque everything. I

 can't > > stand seeing oil on the outside of

 something. (Now when the new > > "radial" RV

 comes out, that will be another story, ha,ha) Oh, Van >

 > swore me to secrecy on that.................darn.>

 > Thanks for the input, glad (I guess) that I'm not

 the only one with > > this issue.> > > >

 ====================> > >

bluesidedown

Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Charlotte

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Oil leak

Reducing the pressure in the crankcase may help. I see a lot of breather tubes on RVs butt up against the exhaust and I think why?? When all they would have to do is weld a small pipe to the exhaust (at the right angle and depth)  run the breather tube to that and the benefits would be cleaner bottom, lower crankcase pressure thus less leaks, less oil consumption and a slight but noticeable increase in power. Prior to doing so myself I was skeptical of some radical claims of doing so but I knew there was a reason for positive crankcase ventilation and  what the hec its experimental right!! My RV4 had a brand new 180hp leakcoming and after I ran the breather to the exhausts the leaks ended and I notice a slight gain in power. So I thought I would do the same with my Acrosport 1 with its tube ran all the way to the back of the plane and I was sure the benefits would be greater and they were. I had over 50 RPM increase at full throttle during a static run up. And no leaks!! Matter of fact the plane just went coast to coast and did not need any oil. My latest plane with Angle valve 360 used to spew oil all over the bottom and the guy selling it to me told me that when I bought it and it did. For on the trip home from Texas the bottom was very oily and needed a quart in just 4 hours. So I did the same thing with it and since then my front seal has not leaked anything and my accessory case is far cleaner as is the bottom. I still get some oil but about a tenth of what I used to and in 25 hours I only used one quart.  I have a constant speed prop on this one and so it is a little harder to measure but  it feels a little stronger. Anyway it seems the benefits are worth looking into. Now I have not heard of or if there has been any problems and as with anything do some research noting what others experienced and the best way to set it up. I am just telling you about my experience.

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Oil leak

Have you pictures of the vent to exhaust configuration that you can share.  Your description refers to the 

'right angle and depth", we all would like to know the details.  I for one am interested in keeping the bottom side clean and am installing an angle valve IO-360 in my RV-8.



Thanks!



Chris Stone

RV-8

Newberg, OR

--

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

bluesidedown

Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Charlotte

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Oil leak

Chris,

   I would be glad to help but the â€œright angleâ€ is relative to your installation.  The goal though is simple; you want to create at the very least a neutral pressure effect and optimally a little negative pressure for positive crankcase ventilation. What I did for mine was to find a spot on one of the exhaust tubes that is relatively close to the end but free of interference from engine and airframe and not so close the oil doesnâ€™t get a chance to burn. I cut a hole in it and then fitted the tube to fit at about a 45 degree angle back and flush with the inside of the exhaust tube gound to fit the curvature. Now some have shown to extend the tube into the exhaust to create a greater effect. I believe with a single tube that would cause restrictions, but with the 4 into 1 collector you could probably get by with it. I really wish I had a dyno an extra engine and some vacuum gauges to put it to science, but I donâ€™t. 



Like anything getting close to or into the exhaust there is the risk of fire. So one should be careful to have enough tube coming out of the exhaust (about 3 to 4 inches depending on airflow)  to keep the heat from burning the breather tube and you should replace the breather tube with high temp hose. I used the blue hose from AC spruce and so far no discoloration or sign of stress, so I guess it is OK. 

 

I hope that helps.  Summit racing and other race shops sell kits to do such a thing and one I found had a screw in weldment which I used on the acrosport. But I did grind off some of the screw in tube to keep it from protruding too much into the exhaust pipe.  SO it might be worth looking into too.

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Oil leak

--- On Sat, 9/27/08, bluesidedown <mbick(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: bluesidedown <mbick(at)carolina.rr.com>

 Subject: Re: Oil leak

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, September 27, 2008, 8:41 AM

 <mbick(at)carolina.rr.com>

snipped

 	  Quote: 	
		   Summit racing and other race shops sell

 kits to do such a thing and one I found had a screw in

 weldment which I used on the Acrosport. But I did grind off

 some of the screw in tube to keep it from protruding too

 much into the exhaust pipe.  SO it might be worth looking

 into too.

snipped

Bluesidedown,

 I checked the Summit site. However, it is so vast I am having trouble locating the kit you mentioned above. Two questions:

#1  What is the proper name of this kit?

#2  Is it found it the EXHAUST section or the BREATHER section?

Charlie Kuss

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Oil leak

Thanks for the further explination.  Have you had any problem with the breather coking up from the heat of the exhaust?  How far upstream is the breather intersection from the end of the exhaust outlet?



Thanks,

Chris Stone

RV-8

Newberg, OR

 	  Quote: 	
		  




Chris,

   I would be glad to help but the Ã¢Â€Âœright angleÃ¢Â€Â is relative to your installation.  The goal though is simple; you want to create at the very least a neutral pressure effect and optimally a little negative pressure for positive crankcase ventilation. What I did for mine was to find a spot on one of the exhaust tubes that is relatively close to the end but free of interference from engine and airframe and not so close the oil doesnÃ¢Â€Â™t get a chance to burn. I cut a hole in it and then fitted the tube to fit at about a 45 degree angle back and flush with the inside of the exhaust tube gound to fit the curvature. Now some have shown to extend the tube into the exhaust to create a greater effect. I believe with a single tube that would cause restrictions, but with the 4 into 1 collector you could probably get by with it. I really wish I had a dyno an extra engine and some vacuum gauges to put it to science, but I donÃ¢Â€Â™t. 



Like anything getting close to or into the exhaust there is the risk of fire. So one should be careful to have enough tube coming out of the exhaust (about 3 to 4 inches depending on airflow)  to keep the heat from burning the breather tube and you should replace the breather tube with high temp hose. I used the blue hose from AC spruce and so far no discoloration or sign of stress, so I guess it is OK. 

 

I hope that helps.  Summit racing and other race shops sell kits to do such a thing and one I found had a screw in weldment which I used on the acrosport. But I did grind off some of the screw in tube to keep it from protruding too much into the exhaust pipe.  SO it might be worth looking into too.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6418#206418

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Oil leak

In a message dated 9/29/2008 1:39:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  rv8iator(at)earthlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Like    anything getting close to or into the exhaust there is the risk of fire. So    one should be careful to have enough tube coming out of the exhaust (about 3    to 4 inches depending on airflow)  to keep the heat from burning the    breather tube and you should replace the breather tube with high temp hose. I    used the blue hose from AC spruce and so far no discoloration or sign of    stress, so I guess it is OK. 

	


 

 Crankcase ventilation systems have their down side. I experimented a lot  with these back in the 70's on air cooled VW engines and I did, in fact, have a  dynamometer to run these systems on. There was a theory that by putting a vacuum  on the crankcase, and thus on the back side of the pistons, you would have that  much more pressure "offset" on the top of the pistons to translate into power.  It's nonsense if you think about it but I tried it anyway (no power to be seen).  By placing the tube at the junction of a 4 into 1 exhaust you  would be at  the point of maximum venturi. Let me tell you; when done correctly at least that  part works. At higher RPM the vacuum is tremendous! So much so that the engine  constantly inhaled valve cover gaskets (a pretty big down side). The plus side  is that NO oil leaks out while its running. 

     The danger here is that you should have a flame  arrestor in the crank vent tubing just like cars used to have in the air cleaner  to valve cover tube back in the 60's. With the right amount of gas diluted in  your oil a backfire could potentially ruin your day. 

  

 Jim



Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

  [quote][b]

bluesidedown

Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Charlotte

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Oil leak

I agree everything has its down side.  Just like running the breather tube through a oil separator then all the way back through the plane creating restriction.  I don't agree that positive crankcase pressure won't help the overall performance if done right and in lieu of a restricted system.  The help with the VW system may not be as much considering the volume of the crankcase as compared to the piston size or the tighter tolerances; I can't really say, I wasn't there. But when we used to run buggys down at Flat River we all had breathers run into the exhaust otherwise you would have oil all over and I won't go into all the other positives since that was 20 years ago and I haven't built a VW engine since. So my knowledge of specifics are limited. I will tell you that you could not run as high of compression and rpm as we were without one.  On an auto a simple test of the PVC was to pinch the line and there was usually a 50 rpm drop. Now it is a little different but the concept is the same. 



Another thing to consider is that the oil will be less contaminated and water vapor is being positively expelled.  There are a few kits to do so and the Moroso kit has a check valve for those worried about a backfire. http://www.streetperformance.com/part/moroso/positive-crankcase-ventilation/391844-25900.html

JFLEISC(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Oil leak

In a message dated 10/5/2008 8:53:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mbick(at)carolina.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I don't    agree that positive crankcase pressure won't help the overall performance if    done right and in lieu of a restricted system. 	


 

 Show me "unaltered" dynamometer numbers, then I'll believe. Otherwise;  fantasy.

  

 Jim



New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!

  [quote][b]

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