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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. Guest
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Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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Kolb Friends -
I encountered a little incident at my home one evening this week that
made me realize that there are STILL people out there in charge of
airports who regard ultralights and other very light aircraft as nothing
more than an annoying nuisance. Which is sad.
I was flying right about at sunset - beautifully smooth air and
spectacular fall colors in the foothills. Near the end of my flight, I
saw a powered parachute flying near the airport, so I swooped in closer
to get a better look. I recognized him - this guy flies from his own
property a couple of miles from our airport, and I often see him flying
at sunset when the air is smooth. He and I recognize each other's
aircraft, as we are often in the same local airspace together with the
same flying goals in common: To enjoy the simple pleasures of low-cost
recreational flying. (p.s. - that's one of the things I love about my
Kolb - I can slow down to *almost* fly in formation with a powered
parachute. Almost.)
After I landed and pulled up to the hangar, I got out of my Kolb, and
saw the parachute guy flying toward me. He was pretty much flying right
down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I
was parked. I waved at him, and he waved back. I could see the smile
on his face as he was waving.
Moments later, the airport manager drove up to me and asked, "Do you
know that idiot? His type are not welcome here." I was not about to
narc on a fellow recreational pilot, especially if he wasn't doing
anything wrong or unsafe. I just said no. (I'm certain I would be
viewed by our airport manager as one of those "dangerous" ultralights if
my Kolb were not N-numbered.)
So I guess the point of this message is, fly safely, and obey the rules.
There are still people in charge of airports who do not wish us to be
part of the mix, and will do what they can to have us thrown off the
airport.
Dennis Kirby
Mark-3, 912ul, "Magic Bike"
Cedar Crest, NM
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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He was pretty much flying right
down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I
was parked. I waved at him, and he waved back.>>
What an idiot. Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is
stupid enough but to fly down the runway......
Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?
It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name,
and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land
behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50
feet over the runway?. What a twit.
Pat
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Ralph B
![](images/avatars/67364827497a6bd2569cc.jpg)
Joined: 14 Apr 2007 Posts: 367 Location: Mound Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes |
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: | He was pretty much flying right
down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I
was parked. I waved at him, and he waved back.>>
What an idiot. Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is
stupid enough but to fly down the runway......
Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?
It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name,
and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land
behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50
feet over the runway?. What a twit.
Pat |
Most of us were ultralight pilots at one time and some still are. Being an ultralight pilot in no way exempts anyone from the rules. The problem arises when ultralight pilots refuse to learn or don't understand airport rules. Some of them just don't know how dangerous an airport can be if a large aircraft doesn't see them when they aren’t expecting an ultralight to be there. At the private field I fly from, there are powered parachutes that I have to watch out for. Since I fly many times faster, I find myself not seeing them until they are only 500' away. This can be downright dangerous. Even if they are obeying the rules, the fact that we are flying much faster makes it dangerous. Then during landing, we have to land beside the collapsed chutes on the runway.
Ralph
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_________________ Ralph B
Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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To paraphrase an old saying, "there is none so stupid as him/her who will not learn." It is so easy to get airport information these days there simply is no excuse, but still there are those who choose to remain ignorant.
Even if you don't have an AFD for your area, and can't use a computer to access Avweb or any of the similar info sources, there is still the tried and true method of coming over the airport at 500 feet above pattern altitude, check the windsock and see if there is any marker indicating that the pattern is anything other than a standard left hander and then knowing the location of the downwind leg doing a descending tear drop turn to enter the pattern on a 45 to the center of the field. Works every time.
Even when I enter the local field where the business aircraft fly, I never get yelled at or treated unkindly even though I can tell you from experience that Lear Jets and Trikes do not mix well. If you follow this simple procedure, act as though you are invisible, and give right of way to everything even when you don't have to, you'll most likely get a friendly reception. But first you have to pull your head out, get it up and locked and use it for something other that just keeping the rain out of your neck.
As for the bags, well, as my friend Mike once told me, "they're an illustration why God never created aerial jelly fish".
Rick
do not archive
"Airframes, don't leave Earth without them"
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Ralph B <ul15rhb(at)juno.com (ul15rhb(at)juno.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com (ul15rhb(at)juno.com)>
pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:
> He was pretty much flying right
> down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I
> was parked. I waved at him, and he waved back.>>
>
> What an idiot. Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is
> stupid enough but to fly down the runway......
> Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?
>
> It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name,
> and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land
> behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50
> feet over the runway?. What a twit.
>
> Pat
Most of us were ultralight pilots at one time and some still are. Being an ultralight pilot in no way exempts anyone from the rules. The problem arises when ultralight pilots refuse to learn or don't understand airport rules. Some of them just don't know how dangerous an airport can be if a large aircraft doesn't see them when they aren't expecting an ultralight to be there. At the private field I fly from, there are powered parachutes that I have to watch out for. Since I fly many times faster, I find myself not seeing them until they are only 500' away. This can be downright dangerous. Even if they are obeying the rules, the fact that we are flying much faster makes it dangerous. Then during landing, we have to land beside the collapsed chutes on the runway.
Ralph
--------
Ralph B
Original Firestar 447
N91493 E-AB
21 years flying it
Kolbra 912UL
N20386
0 years flying it
Read this topic online here:
[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7431#207431]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7431#207431[/url]
[b]
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grantr
Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 217
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes |
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This is from a local guy, He is talking about cook county GA Adel:
Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.
I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)
I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the manager a leg to stand on.
Jim Dees
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herbgh(at)nctc.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot
refuse entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb
At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
Quote: |
This is from a local guy:
Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he
was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his
book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days
how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.
I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks
when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook
County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will
ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I
am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like
bugs bunny does)
I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and
emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to
not give the manager a leg to stand on.
Jim Dees
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523
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smlplanet(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they can not
deny you from using the airport.
FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied access to the
airport.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes
Quote: |
My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot refuse
entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb
At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
>
>
>This is from a local guy:
>
>Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was
>conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and
>did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did
>this or that that gave us a bad name.
>
>I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when
>I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on
>their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with
>the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there
>as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)
>
>I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize
>safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the
>manager a leg to stand on.
>
>Jim Dees
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523
>
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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ask that manager if he will also turn away sport pilots in J3s,
aeroncas, taylorcraft, etc.....
BB
On 6, Oct 2008, at 9:37 AM, <smlplanet(at)msn.com> <smlplanet(at)msn.com>
wrote:
Quote: |
If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they
can not deny you from using the airport.
FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied
access to the airport.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes
>
>
> My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot
> refuse entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb
>
> At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
>>
>> <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>
>>
>> This is from a local guy:
>>
>> Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far
>> he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots
>> in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the
>> old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.
>>
>> I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few
>> weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming
>> to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way"
>> guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not
>> like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him
>> like me (like bugs bunny does)
>>
>> I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and
>> emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to
>> not give the manager a leg to stand on.
>>
>> Jim Dees
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
|
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smlplanet(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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--------------------------------------------------
From: <smlplanet(at)msn.com>
Sent: 2008-10-06 09:37
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes
Quote: |
If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they can
not deny you from using the airport.
FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied access to
the airport.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46
To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes
>
>
> My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot refuse
> entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb
>
> At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>This is from a local guy:
>>
>>Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was
>>conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and
>>did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did
>>this or that that gave us a bad name.
>>
>>I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when
>>I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on
>>their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with
>>the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there
>>as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)
>>
>>I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize
>>safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the
>>manager a leg to stand on.
>>
>>Jim Dees
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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<< He was pretty much flying right down the runway, about 50' high, then
turned ...>>
pj.ladd wrote: << What an idiot. Flying in the immediate vicinity of an
airfield circuit is stupid enough but to fly down the runway...... Does
this guy think he is the only person in the air? Pat >>
Pat -
You may not be accustomed to some of the flying habits that are allowed
in the US, so I can understand your alarm.
What the powered parachute guy did was, essentially, a low approach over
the runway. We do that all the time - nothing unsafe or illegal about
it. He did had a radio, and announced on UNICOM his intentions. Many
pilots seek out the less busy airfields (like where my Kolb is parked)
to practice landings, touch and go's, and/or low approaches. The sparse
traffic at these country airports make for ideal practice in the
circuit.
Especially because often, you ARE the only one in the air, as it was the
this case. I truly believe he would have done this if there had been
other traffic in the pattern, knowing that the disparity of speeds
between his 'chute and all the other "regular" aircraft might cause a
problem. He was the only aircraft still in the pattern, after I had
landed.
Aren't pilots allowed to stay in the pattern and do touch and go's at
small airports in the UK?
Dennis K.
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Dana
![](images/avatars/26557049548fd2baf92001.jpg)
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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At 06:05 AM 10/4/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
Quote: | What an idiot. Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is
stupid enough but to fly down the runway......
Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?
It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name,
and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land
behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at
50 feet over the runway?. What a twit.
|
Not necessarily. If he was flying the traffic pattern for a low approach,
no problem there if the airport doesn't have a lot of fast traffic.
Most of my own PPG flying has been from an active GA airport. In the PPG's
we keep aware of and avoid the GA traffic pattern, and never had any trouble.
-Dana
--
Can a Cessna 150 truly "slip the surly bonds of Earth"?
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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Not necessarily. If he was flying the traffic pattern for a low approach,
\..
\hi,
\What is it with these guys?. The whole point of having a motorised
parachute is that you do not have to operate from an airfield. You can take
off and land into any small pasture. I thought that was one of the main
attractions of the sport,.
Most of the people I know do not operate their microlights, ultrlights
whatever from airfields they fly from farm strips etc with the object of
staying away from controlled airspace, landing patterns etc . How much more
so the paramotor brigade who dont even need a large field.
They may have the right to fly there but why should they want to.? If they
want a cup of coffee from ther clubhouse they can land on the door step with
out messing up a landing pattern of aircraft going considerable faster than
they ar
Cheers
Pat
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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Aren't pilots allowed to stay in the pattern and do touch and go's at
small airports in the UK?>>
Hi Dennis,
yeah, sure. What we dont have, or more accurately not until a couple of
months ago is anything like your Unicom. I suspect also that you have many
more less used airfields than we do.
Unless you landed at a farm or private strip you would probably find
something going on.
Even at a small field I would imaging that you would announce, blind, that
you were doing touch and goes.
Why anyone with a parachute needs to practice landings at an airfiled is
beyond me. Surely that is the whole point of paramotoring, that you are
completely independent of all ground facilities. If yyou want to land at an
airfield to get a coffee there is no need to do fly a full pattern surely.
Round the elm tree and over the hedge I would have thought a much better
proposition,.
Cheers
Pat
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Dana
![](images/avatars/26557049548fd2baf92001.jpg)
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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At 05:06 PM 10/7/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
Quote: | ...I suspect also that you have many more less used airfields than we do.
Unless you landed at a farm or private strip you would probably find
something going on.
...Surely that is the whole point of paramotoring, that you are completely
independent of all ground facilities. If yyou want to land at an airfield
to get a coffee there is no need to do fly a full pattern surely. Round
the elm tree and over the hedge I would have thought a much better
proposition,.
|
Depends on where you are, and of course there's a lot of variety in the
U.S. In Connecticut where I live, there aren't that many farms any more,
it's mostly forest, and the out of control lawyers means most of the
remaining farmers aren't eager to allow what he perceives as a bunch of
nuts with fans strapped to their butts use his fields... so we look to the
airports. Farther west, things are different.
Even at the airports, some ultralight friendly airports want UL's to use
the standard traffic pattern, while others have a special pattern for
UL's. A PPG, of course, is so much slower that you just avoid the pattern
completely. Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance
from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas
at ANY altitude), so we can approach the airport at 200' altitude or
whatever seems reasonable.
-Dana
do not archive
--
Access denied--nah nah na nah nah!
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N111KX (Kip)
Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 96 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes |
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I guess the situation in Adel has not gotten better since 2003. I stopped in there during my trip back from Sun n Fun as it was about to pour down rain. Rather than get all of my equipment soaked I rolled my Firestar into a hangar that did not even have a door. Within 10 minutes the sun was shining so I rolled it out. Mr Happy came up and said "the owner of that hangar would not like you in there". I told him that if a pilot wanted my hangar all night he could have it if I was out of town. He turned and walked away. I have been waiting for 5 year to take a Learjet in there and order up 500 gallons and then remind him of our first meeting and cancel the order.
Grass roots airport at it's worst...
grantr wrote: | This is from a local guy, He is talking about cook county GA Adel:
Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.
I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)
I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the manager a leg to stand on.
Jim Dees |
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_________________ Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta |
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne Guest
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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At 06:54 PM 10/7/08 -0400, you wrote:
Quote: |
completely. Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance
from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas
at ANY altitude), so we can approach the airport at 200' altitude or
whatever seems reasonable.
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Dana
Are you sure about this? I remember reading that UL pilots are supposed to
obey all of the rules for airmen. And one of those rules, if I remember
correctly, states that you must remain 750 feet from everything except when
landing or taking off.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Dana
![](images/avatars/26557049548fd2baf92001.jpg)
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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At 10:15 PM 10/7/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:
Quote: | Are you sure about this? I remember reading that UL pilots are supposed to
obey all of the rules for airmen. And one of those rules, if I remember
correctly, states that you must remain 750 feet from everything except when
landing or taking off.
|
Quite sure. Ultralights in the U.S. are solely governed by Part 103, which
nowhere lists a minimum altitude or distance.
For that matter, in Part 91 which governs nearly all other aircraft,
nowhere is a distance of 750'; it's 500' (1000' over congested areas).
Most other countries, of course, have much more restrictive rules.
-Dana
--
The man who would be fully employed should procure a ship or a woman, for
no two things produce more trouble" - Plautus 254-184 B.C.
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance
Quote: | from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas
at ANY altitude), >.
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Hi Dana,
i am not up on your rules of course but in the UK ultralights have always
been governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else except for the rule
about flying over congested area beacause of their perceived unreliability..
Not only perceived but real.
As reliabilty has improved that rule has been rescinded and we can now fly
over towns etc.
Pat
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Dana
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Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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At 06:57 AM 10/8/2008, pj.ladd wrote:
Quote: | i am not up on your rules of course but in the UK ultralights have always
been governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else except for the
rule about flying over congested area beacause of their perceived
unreliability.. Not only perceived but real.
As reliabilty has improved that rule has been rescinded and we can now fly
over towns etc.
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Over here the only rules that true ultralights have to follow are in the
two page Part 103 regulations. None of the other general operating rules
apply. No pilot or aircraft certification, no inspections, no minimum
altitude... and no passengers and limited performance. The three biggest
restrictions people complain about are the "no flying over congested
areas", the 254# max weight, and the 5 gallon fuel limit, but the thought
is that a rule as unrestrictive as Part 103 would never be passed today...
if they opened it up for revision we almost certainly wouldn't like the result.
-Dana
do not archive
--
Do YOU trust a government that won't obey it's OWN LAWS?
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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes |
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Even at the airports, some ultralight friendly airports want UL's to use
the standard traffic pattern,>>
Hi Dana,
for a UL I would expect that but not powered chutes which after all was what
started this.
Pat
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