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airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Kolbers,
First of all...hello from my Utah home. I've come to get my household stuff, and move it
to my hangar I built in Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri. Internet access for me lately has been "meager" at best.
Now, for the point of my email. A while back Mike B. mentioned he was selling his Xtra, because he believes he has too many clouds to dodge in Florida. He doesn't want to get caught in one, so he feels he needs to sell his plane and get something "IFR approved" (factory iron???). I think this was the gist of the story. Yes?
Well, my initial thought was IF that was the only reason he had to sell his plane, why not
install one of those new digital "artificial horizons"? An "EFIS (Electronic Flight Information System) I will be installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII. I also have another D10A to install in my GlaStar (someday). Plus, I have a Blue Mountain Avionics "EFISOne", to put in the GlaStar. $16,000..ouch!!
Last summer, when I was at Oshkosh Airshow, in one of the display buildings they had
oodles and oodles of new companies making these EFIS's. I knew about Chelton, Blue Mountain, Dynon, Grand Rapids, etc, but it seemed to me everybody under the sun now makes them!!! Obviously, with so much competition, you'd think the prices should come down.
For those not familiar with any of the these "glass cockpit" items, well they are simply
amazing!! They are virtually instantaneous in their displays. You change they plane's
orientation, it follows your movements! You turn, it turns, you dive, it dives. They move in unison with you, all the while you're watching the action on the screen!!! They usually contain: airspeed, altitude, rate of climb, compass heading, rate of turn, AOA (on Dynons, at least), plus a whole bunch of stuff I can't think of. The more expensive models even have topography!!
Here's the really cool part!! No matter what the outside view is, your display screen is ALWAYS showing a sunny day. Pitch black outside, no matter!! You have a small color screen in front of you, showing you the outside world like it was daytime and severe clear! If you can't manage to fly through a cloud with one of these, you are either comotose, or dead. (And yes, I know in VFR flying, you have no business flying into clouds)
Undoubtedly, many of our listers are much more familiar with these EFIS units that I am, but to me, these new EFIS units are one of the greatest new additions to the Experimental Category world.
Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Flight_Instrument_System
Also take a look at: http://bluemountainavionics.com/products.html#eflite
Hey, this is just my opinion, maybe your opinion varies!! Adios.
Oh yeah, Rob Cannon, I, too, have lost a few two hour emails, and could kick a box of puppies...I was so mad!!! May I suggest you get into the habit of saving your email to "DRAFT" anytime you EVER leave the page (as I have done for this email, whilst I hunted down a couple of EFIS links.
If anyone else suggested the EFIS idea, great! I miss about 90% of my emails. When I finally get a chance to go to the Library computer, and there are 126 emails, I only have time to read a few.
Best regards,
Mike Welch
Kolb MkIII (mothball stage) (soon to not be in mothballs))
[quote][b]
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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| airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com wrote: | Kolbers,
Now, for the point of my email. A while back Mike B. mentioned he was selling his Xtra, because he believes he has too many clouds to dodge in Florida. He doesn't want to get caught in one, so he feels he needs to sell his plane and get something "IFR approved" (factory iron???). I think this was the gist of the story. Yes?
Well, my initial thought was IF that was the only reason he had to sell his plane, why not
install one of those new digital "artificial horizons"? An "EFIS (Electronic Flight Information System) I will be installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII. I also have another D10A to install in my GlaStar (someday). Plus, I have a Blue Mountain Avionics "EFISOne", to put in the GlaStar. $16,000..ouch!!
|
Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work very well at all for IFR flight.
Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb heat and pitot heat at least.......
My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform. They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Best advice I ever heard from an experienced pilot who was IFR
certified was: " It taught me to stay on the ground"!! Herb
At 07:14 PM 10/5/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: |
airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> Kolbers,
> Now, for the point of my email. A while back Mike B.
mentioned he was selling his Xtra, because he believes he has too
many clouds to dodge in Florida. He doesn't want to get caught in
one, so he feels he needs to sell his plane and get something "IFR
approved" (factory iron???). I think this was the gist of the story. Yes?
>
> Well, my initial thought was IF that was the only reason he
had to sell his plane, why not
> install one of those new digital "artificial horizons"? An
"EFIS (Electronic Flight Information System) I will be installing
a Dynon D10A in my MkIII. I also have another D10A to install in
my GlaStar (someday). Plus, I have a Blue Mountain Avionics
"EFISOne", to put in the GlaStar. $16,000..ouch!!
>
Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
very well at all for IFR flight.
Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
heat and pitot heat at least.......
My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7482#207482
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craig.nelson(at)heraeus.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Mike and list
There are lots of options out there. MGL avionics has an amazing value
for the money. In one instrument you can have 9 screens set the
Way you want it to look and retrieve them at the touch of a button. 3D
moving terrain. Artificial horizon. Encoding altimeter. Air speed
indicator, winds, HSI, GVOR, 3D moving map GPS. You have many choices
for display of the GPS function VASI, EMS. You can have check lists you
make yourself displayed on the screen. have a screen to do the weight
and balance with a diagram of a kolb showing the point along the datum
for each area of the plane - fuel- pilots- baggage areas, ect. And enter
the weight for each component and it will tell you if you are in limits.
You can use these instruments on a two cylinder two stroke or any
aviation engine as well as car engine or turbine. The instrument will
show nearest airports, distance from and all the frequencies needed at
the touch of a button. You can couple the instrument to a compatible
radio and touch the corresponding button to the frequency displayed and
it will automatically tune the radio to the frequency. The Enigma sells
complete for under $4000.00
www.mglavionics.com <http://www.mglavionics.com/>
uncle craig
MKIIIEX 912 Warp
________________________________
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>
>LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Uncle Craig C
Haven't heard from you in awhile!! In fact C I guess I haven't heard from anyone!! I've never heard of this brand of EFIS. NICE looking unit!! Like I said C I was amazed at all the new companies at Oshkosh this last summer that now makes these EFIS's.
Craig C did I get the story right C I heard you didn't make it to Monument Valley this year because
you were adding new wingtips?? If so C how about a photo or two??
Always great to hear from ya C
Mike Welch
MkIII
Subject: RE: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Date: Sun C 5 Oct 2008 20:57:27 -0400
From: craig.nelson(at)heraeus.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
.ExternalClass .EC_shape {;} .ExternalClass p.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass li.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass div.EC_MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass span.EC_EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.EC_Section1 {page:Section1;}
Mike and list
There are lots of options out there. MGL avionics has an amazing value for the money. In one instrument you can have 9 screens set the
Way you want it to look and retrieve them at the touch of a button. 3D moving terrain. Artificial horizon. Encoding altimeter. Air speed indicator C winds C HSI C GVOR C 3D moving map GPS. You have many choices for display of the GPS function VASI C EMS. You can have check lists you make yourself displayed on the screen. have a screen to do the weight and balance with a diagram of a kolb showing the point along the datum for each area of the plane – fuel- pilots- baggage areas C ect. And enter the weight for each component and it will tell you if you are in limits.
You can use these instruments on a two cylinder two stroke or any aviation engine as well as car engine or turbine. The instrument will show nearest airports C distance from and all the frequencies needed at the touch of a button. You can couple the instrument to a compatible radio and touch the corresponding button to the frequency displayed and it will automatically tune the radio to the frequency. The Enigma sells complete for under $4000.00
www.mglavionics.com
uncle craig
MKIIIEX 912 Warp
[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C92713.598B19C0[/img]
.
Sent: Sunday C October 05 C 2008 8:40 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Kolb-List: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Kolbers C
Now C for the point of my email. A while back Mike B. mentioned he was selling his Xtra C because he believes he has too many clouds to dodge in Florida. He doesn't want to get caught in one C so he feels he needs to sell his plane and get something "IFR approved" (factory iron???). I think this was the gist of the story. Yes?
Well C my initial thought was IF that was the only reason he had to sell his plane C why not
install one of those new digital "artificial horizons"? An "EFIS (Electronic Flight Information System) I will be installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII. I also have another D10A to install in my GlaStar (someday). Plus C I have a Blue Mountain Avionics "EFISOne" C to put in the GlaStar. $16 C000..ouch!!
Best regards C
Mike Welch
Kolb MkIII (mothball stage) (soon to not be in mothballs))
See how Windows connects the people C information C and fun that are part of your l/' target='_new'>See Now
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craig.nelson(at)heraeus.c
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Mike
I have been reading the list, but this past year I have been really
busy with work. I was scheduled to have vacation for MV but had to go
last minute with the president of our company to New Orleans. I was
going to install new wing tips but decided I did not like the droop
tips. If I do wing tips I will make my own and have the tips flair up
like the Beach A36. I had a short in my teach. I have the cowl off right
now checking that problem and installing a high speed starter. I may
make a cowl flap as the cowling works so well I have trouble keeping the
engine at operating temps especially with the cooler weather coming.
Uncle craig
MKIII EX 912 ULS warp
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Welch
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:13 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Uncle Craig,
Haven't heard from you in awhile!! In fact, I guess I haven't heard
from anyone!! I've never heard of this brand of EFIS. NICE looking
unit!! Like I said, I was amazed at all the new companies at Oshkosh
this last summer that now makes these EFIS's.
Craig, did I get the story right, I heard you didn't make it to
Monument Valley this year because
you were adding new wingtips?? If so, how about a photo or two??
Always great to hear from ya,
Mike Welch
MkIII
________________________________
Subject: RE: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:57:27 -0400
From: craig.nelson(at)heraeus.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Mike and list
There are lots of options out there. MGL avionics has an amazing value
for the money. In one instrument you can have 9 screens set the
Way you want it to look and retrieve them at the touch of a button. 3D
moving terrain. Artificial horizon. Encoding altimeter. Air speed
indicator, winds, HSI, GVOR, 3D moving map GPS. You have many choices
for display of the GPS function VASI, EMS. You can have check lists you
make yourself displayed on the screen. have a screen to do the weight
and balance with a diagram of a kolb showing the point along the datum
for each area of the plane - fuel- pilots- baggage areas, ect. And enter
the weight for each component and it will tell you if you are in limits.
You can use these instruments on a two cylinder two stroke or any
aviation engine as well as car engine or turbine. The instrument will
show nearest airports, distance from and all the frequencies needed at
the touch of a button. You can couple the instrument to a compatible
radio and touch the corresponding button to the frequency displayed and
it will automatically tune the radio to the frequency. The Enigma sells
complete for under $4000.00
www.mglavionics.com <http://www.mglavionics.com/>
uncle craig
MKIIIEX 912 Warp
________________________________
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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| mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: | Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
|
That's right - when VFR in a day-VFR airplane, we have no business flying in IMC or blasting off if we even think we might get into IMC.
So I don't see the sense in suggesting putting an EFIS, a very expensive box by the way, into any Kolb for that purpose.
The money is far better spent in other ways on the plane itself or including selling the plane to get something that _is_ suitable for flying in IMC.
This is a very old argument that's gone on really ever since instrument flight has been invented - neither side has ever lost or won, so I wont get into a long knock-down drag-out about this here.
This is just my opinion for what it's worth, and that's all.
LS
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_________________
LS
Titan II SS |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
>>Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>>very well at all for IFR flight.
>>
>>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>>
>>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>>
>>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>>
>>LS
>>
>>--------
>>LS
>>Titan II SS
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie.
[url=http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008]http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008[/url]
[b]
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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
Rick Girard asked "How exactly does one find themselves in clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air.""
I always had the same assumption - and was disabused during a September flight on the Oregon coast. It was a grey day: there was haze and a very high overcast and at least 5-8 miles visibility- nothing I'd identify as a problem at the 1000' altitude we were flying at. As I flew, suddenly the haze grew denser and thicker. And when I say "suddenly" I mean SUDDENLY. My flying partner and I both dove down (Happily we were over fields) and then turned around and flew back to the airstrip we'd just left. Dave said that often on grey days, it's hard to discern fog until you are almost in it. The greyness just seems to thicken around you, and you're "in clouds". Not white billowing cumulus clouds - just dense pea soup.
Arty Trost
Maxair Drifter
Sandy, OR
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Mon, 10/6/08, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 7:37 AM
Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>
>LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
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smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
I live and fly in Florida and have no problem with the clouds.
As a rule they are high enough to fly under 2000-3500' which is low and if doing a XC above them 5000'-6000' for better air or crossing large swamps (Everglades), fly low there you see some big gator. I try and get 2-5 hrs per week in the air at least. Mark III C/912
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: 2008-10-06 10:37
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>
>LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
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[b]
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Rick
Flying unexpectedly into clouds isn't as difficult as you make out. A few years ago trying to get home from Oshkosh I unexpectedly flew into clouds. I had checked the weather report before departing and knew the ceilings were low but it looked to me and the weather briefer that I could get to my next stop 50 miles away. I took off and got within 5 miles of the airport and suddenly and unexpectedly flew into a heavy cloud bank. I had been flying along with decreasing ceilings with less than 5 mile visibility from the very start. It is very common in this part of Michigan's UP. With the limited visibility I couldn't see the cloud until I was almost in it. I was almost to the airport and flying app 50 ft above the tree tops when everything disappeared. I immediately did a 180 out of the cloud using occasional glimpses of the tree tops as reference. I circled for a bit trying to find a close airport on my GPS and charts also hoping that the clouds would lift enough to see the airport. Finally I retraced my flight almost 50 miles to where I started that morning. Carrying extra fuel is a really good thing. Two hours later I got to that airport only to wait until late afternoon to go the next stop.
Over the next few years I found that if I flew out over Lake Michigan along that shore line it was much more often clear and smooth. The other neat thing is that they put airports right along the lake shore. Its a bit like flying VFR on top with airports also on top.
When I saw Mike's photos what he called IFR weather in Florida I thought wow in Michigan we would never fly if we waited for the weather to get that good.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
[quote] ---
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
Rick,
(while chuckling) I didn't say "I" had a problem suddenly appearing inside a cloud. I was only
responding to Mike B's ailment of an excess number of clouds in Florida, and that he "may" find himself having to fly into one. (??? Would one really have to do that, especially in a Kolb??)
Of my past flying experiences, though, I can think of two specific times when something as sophisticated as
an EFIS would have been nice to have had. (Ask John Kennedy if an EFIS would have been nice onboard).
On one occation a friend and I went flying in my 172. Although there was virtually 100% cloud cover for 100 miles, around our airport it was VFR (10 mile radius). I have heard stories about morons that were flying above such a scenario, and the hole "closed up". It didn't happen to me, I'm too much of a chicken. If it ain't severe clear in my
little flying world, I just don't go!!. If a hole started to close up, I'm going to be watching it from the ground.
I guess the main thing I was trying to convey was IF, for some inexplicable reason (...t happens), a person found themselves in IMC briefly, then an EFIS might not be a bad tool to have onboard.
The only reason I will be installing a few (3) of them is because of their enomous information in a small colorful screen. Of course, most people on the list will never find themselves remotely close to ever "needing" one while piloting a Kolb aircraft, and see no need of their value with regard to IMC.
You asked how one suddenly finds himself in a cloud? How does one run out of fuel in an airplane? How does one
forget to fasten everything down prior to liftoff? How does one not check the NOTAMS before a long XC, or WX briefing? I guess the simple truth is there are enough morons and stupid people (or sometimes just unlucky situations) that all of a sudden these pilots are forced to do drastic measures.
One time, about 10 years ago, a friend (same one) and I were going to fly to the Golden State airshow in a friend of his's plane. This Cherokee had just been annualed. For some unknown reason the mechanic turned off the fuel.
While we were preflighting, we tried to drain the fuel at the engine.....nothing came out. We checked the shut-off, and found that it was simply turned off. No problem, we turned on correctly, jumped in, and away we go to the active runway. He did the run-up, no problems. Everything acted "good to go"!! So off we went. Got about 150' up about midfield, engine drops to idle...no throttle response, just idle. Fortunately, there was barely enough runway to set it back down...barely. 3 more seconds of flight and we would have landed in the canal that crosses the end of the runway.
It turns out that since he didn't get any fuel out of the fuel strainer near the engine, he kept poking and prodding it, which cocked it open slightly. Since the fuel was shut off, we didn't realize it was cocked open. Once the fuel was turned on, it dribbled out on the ground, but we were in the plane at this time, and didn't know this was going on. At start-up, the dribbling stopped, because there was just enough suction to preclude drippage. BUT!!!!! At run-up for a few seconds, the fuel strainer would begin to empty...but he didn't do the run-up long enough to cause the engine to sputter.
However, at FULL RPM, the suction was SO high that it started to suck the fuel moisture bowl dry, which took about 6-8 seconds, or about halfway through the runway length.
So, said all that to say this; crap happens!!! Through situations unbeknownst to us, we MAY have been forced to take drastic measures. Who knows?? I we were 10 minutes away from the airport, maybe our closest airport was 3 miles through some fog, otherwise it's in the forest somewhere. Can't imagine all the bad crap that can come our way. 99.9999% of the time, we don't need anything but an airspeed indicator.
But if, someday, a cloud somehow pops up around me, I'd think an EFIS would be nice to have. Besides they are
so cool and colorful!!!
Best regards,
Mike Welch
MkIII
________________________________
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:37:36 -0500
From: aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>
>LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
_________________________________________________________________
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Ricochet
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Fresno, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
...well, as one of those "idiots" who has had a brush or two with near-IFR like moments, I for one would rather have the instrument, all else being equal, than not, if I were to actually get caught in IFR conditions. Truth be told, we have several "idiots" in these parts who have been caught, more often than not, on long cross-country flights in IFR conditions and wished they had something better than just a compass to tell them which way is up. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, IMHO. That's my two centavos...now back to enjoying the repartee.
Jerry
Fresno
On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:37 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote]Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution [/b] |
[b]
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
Thanks Jerry. That's all I was saying. Better to have it than not.
Truth is, as this same friend and I were leaving the Watsonville Fly-In ~1998, the entire sky was
cloud cover(typical bay area high fog)....about 800 AGL. Even though this was not technically legal for all the VFR rated pilots to take off and head home, many hundreds of us did. Thank God for my Garmin 95XL (I wouldn't have departed if I didn't have it). We simply followed the highway looking straight down, about 200' beneath of clouds. There are hills about 10 miles to the east of Watsonville that you have to fly through the pass. We were hoping it was not going to close us in. Fortunately, the hills were easy to get past, and opened up to the clear San Juaquin Valley.
Between the GPS, and an EFIS if I had one, I think even a moron like myself could have gotten out of Watsonville okay. I know at one time or another if all of us fly, we will be put in a situation that wasn't what we planned for. A new tool may augment our escape from stupidity or a bad situation.
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
________________________________
From: maderah2(at)sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:43:19 -0700
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
..well, as one of those "idiots" who has had a brush or two with near-IFR like moments, I for one would rather have the instrument, all else being equal, than not, if I were to actually get caught in IFR conditions. Truth be told, we have several "idiots" in these parts who have been caught, more often than not, on long cross-country flights in IFR conditions and wished they had something better than just a compass to tell them which way is up. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, IMHO. That's my two centavos...now back to enjoying the repartee.
Jerry
Fresno
On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:37 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
>fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
>
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>heat and pitot heat at least.......
>
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>
>LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
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Possums
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
Nice if you need it.
At 01:43 PM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: | ...well, as one of those "idiots" who has had a brush or two with
near-IFR like moments, I for one would rather have the instrument,
all else being equal, than not, if I were to actually get caught in
IFR conditions. Truth be told, we have several "idiots" in these
parts who have been caught, more often than not, on long
cross-country flights in IFR conditions and wished they had
something better than just a compass to tell them which way is
up. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it,
IMHO. That's my two centavos...now back to enjoying the repartee.
Jerry
|
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Ricochet
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 36
Location: Fresno, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
|
|
Curse you Possums!!! Why'd u do that? Now I got sumthn else I gotta
hav.
Jerry
On Oct 6, 2008, at 2:59 PM, possums wrote:
| Quote: |
Nice if you need it.
At 01:43 PM 10/6/2008, you wrote:
> ...well, as one of those "idiots" who has had a brush or two with
> near-IFR like moments, I for one would rather have the instrument,
> all else being equal, than not, if I were to actually get caught
> in IFR conditions. Truth be told, we have several "idiots" in
> these parts who have been caught, more often than not, on long
> cross-country flights in IFR conditions and wished they had
> something better than just a compass to tell them which way is
> up. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have
> it, IMHO. That's my two centavos...now back to enjoying the
> repartee.
>
> Jerry<Panel.jpg>
|
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Arty, MIke, all, I've been suckered by a briefer's probably rating of the day's weather. I only use them occasionally now and one of several inputs to my fly/no fly decision on the weather. If the briefer says probably, take it as probably not. Arty, I spent too many days sitting on take off at Oceanside to ever forget that when the dew point and temperature coincide the flying is over for the day. That was what you experienced from the air, I think I liked it better from the ground. Besides the Deli sold great sandwiches and the beer was cold.
I took a good look at JFK Jr's accident. From what I make of it he had a bad case of intermediate syndrome with a touch of getthereitis in an area that was known for that weather phenomenon.
So on the weather issue I stand with the clouds, fog, haze, thunderstorms do not spring out of hiding group. The information is there for you evaluate before you fly.
Let's get on with the real issue. If you had an EFIS would you be proficient and disciplined enough to use it, or would it just make those last 178 seconds even more mystifying.
They're great, but taking the time to evaluate as many of the weather services available to you to get as clear a picture of the weather as you can before flying is a whole lot more reliable ounce of prevention than an EFIS pound of cure. It's also a ton cheaper.
Rick
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:07 AM, TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com (thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Rick Girard asked "How exactly does one find themselves in clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air.""
I always had the same assumption - and was disabused during a September flight on the Oregon coast. It was a grey day: there was haze and a very high overcast and at least 5-8 miles visibility- nothing I'd identify as a problem at the 1000' altitude we were flying at. As I flew, suddenly the haze grew denser and thicker. And when I say "suddenly" I mean SUDDENLY. My flying partner and I both dove down (Happily we were over fields) and then turned around and flew back to the airstrip we'd just left. Dave said that often on grey days, it's hard to discern fog until you are almost in it. The greyness just seems to thicken around you, and you're "in clouds". Not white billowing cumulus clouds - just dense pea soup.
Arty Trost
Maxair Drifter
Sandy, OR
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Mon, 10/6/08, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: Re: IFR Conditions unexpectedly
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 7:37 AM
Mike, How exactly does one suddenly find themselves in the clouds? It's not like they can hide and suddenly spring out of thin air (pardon the pun) with a big gotcha. While putting an EFIS in may be worth the instrumentation since you do get a lot of read out in a small package. It will almost surely give a false sense of security to some idiot whose 178 seconds will soon be up.
Rick
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>
Lucien,
I don't think you're a wet blanket, but I don't think you read my suggestion properly, either!
I DID'T say a Kolb would make a suitable IFR plane. I said IF Mike B. 's ONLY reason for selling his
plane was that he didn't want to inadvertantly find himself in a cloud, then an EFIS unit may be
a good choice to see his way out of it. I even mentioned we, as the VFR crowd, have NO business being
in clouds!
You completely misunderstood everything I said regarding IFR conditions. I wasn't suggesting we engage
in IFR flight. In fact, I just sold my Cessna 172, which was IFR rated, but I'D NEVER do that. It's just not my
flight interests.
I'm not trying to be rude, but you should read what a person says prior to condemning their comments.
Again, the ONLY point I was trying to make was " IF " he found himself ACCIDENTLY in a cloud, an EFIS unit
can be a good way to get out fast!! Now, what wrong with that??
Mike Welch
VFR MkIII CX
PS. The reason I'm installing a Dynon D10A in my MkIII has NOTHING to do with IFR flight. I am only interested in the "flight parameters", airspeed, altitude, etc.
You're right. If anyone wants IFR flight, they should consider factory iron (only). But, that didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about..
| Quote: | >Er, don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but....
>>I wouldn't bother. A Kolb would make a truly lousy IFR platform - in
|
| Quote: | >fact, I can't think of anything in the 912 class that would work
>very well at all for IFR flight.
>
>Truth is, I wouldn't take anything in the 912 class into actual
>period, even if it were IFR cert and I were instrument rated. Even
>>my titan which is a straight and responsive flyer would be zero fun flying IFR.
|
| Quote: | >
>You want something big and stable for IFR, particularly if you plan
>on flying in actual (talk about ROUGH and WET conditions), with carb
>>heat and pitot heat at least.......
|
| Quote: | >
>My advice if you need something for flying in IMC would be a good
>spam can - even the mightly 172 works very well as an IFR platform.
>They're cheap nowadays too due to the high gas prices....
>>
|
| Quote: | >LS
>
>--------
>LS
>Titan II SS
|
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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Rick,
If I had an EFIS, and I do (to be installed), I would practice ALL the cautions you suggest.
I will do my darndest to avoid the IMC mentioned. I have NEVER been interested in flying
anywhere I can't see on the horizon (or beyond the horizon, in the case of a long XC).
I do not advocate an EFIS as a lawful excuse to go looking inside of clouds. My philosophy
is "severe clear", or I'm not going. (I've highened my standards through the years).
I whole-hardedly agree with yours' and Lucien's position regarding a EFIS's IFR use. My
interest in an EFIS is only for all the bells and whistles, and nothing to do with IFR escapage.
But, it is an undeniable fact that IF a person had a brain fade, and somehow got caught in some
Cumula granite, an EFIS MAY possibly save you. I didn't say it would...just may. The photo of
Stanley's (Possum's) panel looks just like it does, inside a cloud or not.
Thanks for the lively discussion.
Mike Welch
MkIII CX
PS. As a general rule, I usually agree with you and Lucien. At the very least, I respect that your
opinion's vary from mine and a few others.
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HShack(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: IFR Conditions unexpectedly |
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If I had the money I'd get one just because they look so kool!
Howard Shackleford
FS II
SC do not archive
In a message dated 10/6/2008 7:02:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | They're great, but taking the time to evaluate as many of the weather services available to you to get as clear a picture of the weather as you can before flying is a whole lot more reliable ounce of prevention than an EFIS pound of cure. It's also a ton cheaper.
|
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