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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

Hi all, 

I have a friend with a C-195 that has had a BatteryMinder on his battery (Concorde) for the last several weeks.  He found a bunch of residue (white flaky stuff) had come out of the battery overflow tube during this time and was concerned.  I assume this is just due to boil-over but am looking for more information to give him.  Oh, the battery fluid level following this was just a hair above the top of the plates. 

Any thoughts?? 

Thanks! 

Jon  [quote][b]

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

At 12:44 PM 10/8/2008 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi all,



I have a friend with a C-195 that has had a BatteryMinder on his battery 

(Concorde) for the last several weeks.


	


    A Concorde RG battery?



 	  Quote: 	
		     He found a bunch of residue (white flaky stuff) had come out of the 

 battery overflow tube during this time and was concerned.  I assume this 

 is just due to boil-over but am looking for more information to give 

 him.  Oh, the battery fluid level following this was just a hair above 

 the top of the plates.



Any thoughts??


	


   It's in the genes of true battery maintainers not

   to outgas ANY battery, flooded or sealed. If he's

   loosing liquid under charge/maintain cycles from

   a Battery Minder, then the charger is defective.

   It's easy to tell. A few hours after the Battery

   Minder's indicator light turns green . . . measure

   the voltage on the battery. It should be 13.8 volts

   MAX and ideally about 13.2 volts.



   Bob  . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

Hi Bob,



No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at

the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A.  It is my understanding that

the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery.  Is that not true??



Ok, will test it further.



Thanks for the input!



Jon



DO NOT ARCHIVE

--

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:12 am Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

At 09:26 PM 10/8/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bob,



No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at

the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A.  It is my understanding that

the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery.  Is that not true??



Ok, will test it further.



Thanks for the input!



Jon


	


   There's a lot of floobydust being thrown in the

   air about suitability-to-task for the various

   offerings in "smart chargers". Each manufacturer

   has to figure out a way to make their product more

   attractive to the consumer than their competition.

   But it's beginning to be like laundry soap . . .

   there's only so much you can do to make it "new

   and improved" before practical benefits become

   obscured by marketing hype.



   The modus operandi for the vast majority of batteries

   in mobile dc power supplies is such that they NEVER

   see a plug-in-the-wall charger over the lifetime

   of the battery. Consumers run'em 'til they drop and

   put in new one. The benchmark for goodness is measured

   in months of service . . . under as-installed operating

   conditions.



   Potions and notions for improved battery service life

   have been around for decades. I recall ads in magazines

   from when I was a kid touting magic juice or tablets that

   one could put into a battery that would "rejuvenate

   your ailing battery." The sundry notions for de-sulfating

   an ageing battery by electrically hammering the oversized

   crystals is another idea that has yet to emerge as a

   "good thing to do" everywhere, all the time. One of the

   things that consumers seldom considered was the value

   of technological competition amongst battery makers and

   alternator/regulator makers. If any after market enhancement

   has a real return on investment, then the folks who make

   millions of them every year have a greater interest

   in the idea than the guy selling battery potions out

   of the trunk of his car. I.e, if this is such a

   good thing to do, why isn't it already being done?



   Getting back to the Battery Tender as suited to task

   on the flooded battery, ALL lead-acid batteries have

   one thing in common . . . self discharge in storage.

   I'm told that a strong forcing factor is the amount

   of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Sealed batteries

   have very little, flooded batteries have a lot but

   BOTH batteries will eventually run down just sitting.



   The real goal of a battery maintenance charger is to

   support the battery at some voltage just above its

   open circuit potential at rest. This is a voltage

   too low to overcharge the battery . . . but sufficient

   to have self discharge currents be totally picked up

   by the external energy supply. Once the battery

   maintenance device senses that the battery is "topped

   off" . . . it needs to shift gears from a CHARGER

   to MAINTAINER like:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg



   Now, one can slice and dice the charge modes into

   finely tuned recipes for success depending on laboratory

   studies of optimum performance for each battery

   technology . . . AGM, gel and flooded. But if one

   compares the way batteries are charged in-situ in

   millions of vehicles . . . NONE are treated anything

   like the optimized recipe for success. Yet millions

   of consumers perceive satisfactory service-life for

   their purchase. I.e, I've been stuffing new batteries

   into vehicles for 50 years and have returned very

   few devices for warranty replacement. The rest performed

   well enough to avoid any notions of "Gee, that last

   battery was a piece of crap . . . not going to buy

   THAT brand again."



   I have observed battery performance in the wild

   and in aircraft systems for decades. I have concluded

   that customers who perceived poor return on investment

   for their battery purchase WOULD NOT have found relief

   by plugged the thing in the wall every night and punching

   the "right" button for AGM, gel or flooded technology.



   If you have a battery that demonstrates loss of water

   while "plugged in", it is likely that the maintenance

   voltage is too high. This would be true of any lead-acid

   battery technology.



   Bob . . .

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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

Morning, Jon...

 

 This reminds me of an similar ongoing problem I used to have with the fork truck and material  handling vehicle operators where I used to work.  It was a pharmaceutical plant, so internal combustion engines were not allowed, and they were all electric. 

 

 I could never get the operators to stop refilling the batteries (actually OVERFILLING) and then putting them on charge.  The next morning, the fork truck would be sitting in a pool of acid/water as it boiled over when charged.

 

 So, since you mentioned that the fluid level barely covered the plates, is it possible that he is refilling the battery and then charging it? And could this sequence cause the boil over?

 

 Harley  

 

 

 Jon Finley wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net> (jon(at)finleyweb.net)  Hi Bob,  No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A.  It is my understanding that the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery.  Is that not true??  Ok, will test it further.  Thanks for the input!  Jon  DO NOT ARCHIVE --

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pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

And the Schumacher mentioned maintainer has gone for $17+ to 20+ 

yesterday at Walmart since I bought the last one. Still a good buy 

for what it does for batteries in storage.

Part number changed and they have a different box and the 

instructions  & how it works on a label on the top of the unit. New 

number is SEM-1562A old # was WM-1562A.

Paul

=====================

At 05:10 AM 10/9/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>

At 09:26 PM 10/8/2008 -0600, you wrote:

>

>

>Hi Bob,

>

>No, it is not an RG battery - just a standard lead-acid battery. Looking at

>the Concorde website, I think it is a CB-35A.  It is my understanding that

>the BatteryMinder is ok for this type of battery.  Is that not true??

>

>Ok, will test it further.

>

>Thanks for the input!

>

>Jon

   There's a lot of floobydust being thrown in the

   air about suitability-to-task for the various

   offerings in "smart chargers". Each manufacturer

   has to figure out a way to make their product more

   attractive to the consumer than their competition.

   But it's beginning to be like laundry soap . . .

   there's only so much you can do to make it "new

   and improved" before practical benefits become

   obscured by marketing hype.

   The modus operandi for the vast majority of batteries

   in mobile dc power supplies is such that they NEVER

   see a plug-in-the-wall charger over the lifetime

   of the battery. Consumers run'em 'til they drop and

   put in new one. The benchmark for goodness is measured

   in months of service . . . under as-installed operating

   conditions.

   Potions and notions for improved battery service life

   have been around for decades. I recall ads in magazines

   from when I was a kid touting magic juice or tablets that

   one could put into a battery that would "rejuvenate

   your ailing battery." The sundry notions for de-sulfating

   an ageing battery by electrically hammering the oversized

   crystals is another idea that has yet to emerge as a

   "good thing to do" everywhere, all the time. One of the

   things that consumers seldom considered was the value

   of technological competition amongst battery makers and

   alternator/regulator makers. If any after market enhancement

   has a real return on investment, then the folks who make

   millions of them every year have a greater interest

   in the idea than the guy selling battery potions out

   of the trunk of his car. I.e, if this is such a

   good thing to do, why isn't it already being done?

   Getting back to the Battery Tender as suited to task

   on the flooded battery, ALL lead-acid batteries have

   one thing in common . . . self discharge in storage.

   I'm told that a strong forcing factor is the amount

   of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte. Sealed batteries

   have very little, flooded batteries have a lot but

   BOTH batteries will eventually run down just sitting.

   The real goal of a battery maintenance charger is to

   support the battery at some voltage just above its

   open circuit potential at rest. This is a voltage

   too low to overcharge the battery . . . but sufficient

   to have self discharge currents be totally picked up

   by the external energy supply. Once the battery

   maintenance device senses that the battery is "topped

   off" . . . it needs to shift gears from a CHARGER

   to MAINTAINER like:

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg

   Now, one can slice and dice the charge modes into

   finely tuned recipes for success depending on laboratory

   studies of optimum performance for each battery

   technology . . . AGM, gel and flooded. But if one

   compares the way batteries are charged in-situ in

   millions of vehicles . . . NONE are treated anything

   like the optimized recipe for success. Yet millions

   of consumers perceive satisfactory service-life for

   their purchase. I.e, I've been stuffing new batteries

   into vehicles for 50 years and have returned very

   few devices for warranty replacement. The rest performed

   well enough to avoid any notions of "Gee, that last

   battery was a piece of crap . . . not going to buy

   THAT brand again."

   I have observed battery performance in the wild

   and in aircraft systems for decades. I have concluded

   that customers who perceived poor return on investment

   for their battery purchase WOULD NOT have found relief

   by plugged the thing in the wall every night and punching

   the "right" button for AGM, gel or flooded technology.

   If you have a battery that demonstrates loss of water

   while "plugged in", it is likely that the maintenance

   voltage is too high. This would be true of any lead-acid

   battery technology.

   Bob . . .

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: BatteryMinder and "boil-over"

At 06:36 AM 10/9/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



And the Schumacher mentioned maintainer has gone for $17+ to 20+ yesterday 

at Walmart since I bought the last one. Still a good buy for what it does 

for batteries in storage.

Part number changed and they have a different box and the instructions  & 

how it works on a label on the top of the unit. New number is SEM-1562A 

old # was WM-1562A.


	


  Yeah, I saw those a couple of days ago at WallyWorld.

  I've got one of the older versions and did extensive

  testing that showed this little guy was about 2x

  faster than the Battery-Minder/Battery-Tender wall-wart

  crowd (0.8A versus 1.5A recharge) and equally as

  "smart" with at less than 2/3 the price.



  My favorite of the small guys.



  Bob . . .

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