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CT MKIII crash
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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Rick,



The stock fuel system on my MK III takes fuel from the top of the tanks, through a tube.  The gascolator will work fine with a top draw system, it would catch any water going through the fuel line.   Most bottom draw systems are not perfect, meaning that the fuel is not EXACTLY drawn from the bottom of the tank, many times there is a ridge, etc. around the pickup.  This would mean that water would sit in the tank and not get sucked out until flight, so the gascolator would most likely work exactly the same, be it top or bottom draw...



I have to go with John H on this one, I like bottom draw better.  It is one thing Kolb changed to with the new aluminum 18 gallon tank, this is a really nice and well made tank, I have one that I have just not put in yet 



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Good points.



I do have a bottom draw tank with finger strainer.  So I could put a gascolator at the low point.   I'm not convinced that water in the tank would make it to the gascolator from just gravity. At least not with the 1/4" i.d. fuel line.  It seems it would only work if there was fuel flowing, not at rest.  I'm even less convinced this would work with just a piece of tubing going to a valve effectively trying to make the tubing become a water trap.  I'll have to do a test for this.  Standard practice is usually right though.



P.S. 

I had the plastic tank with push in rubber bushing at the bottom of the tank for lots of years and it never leaked.

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Scott O:

  

 Don't know about you, but it works for me.  Gravity  pulls the water out of the line when it passes the "T" at the bottom of the loop  as it goes under the tail boom.  A single line from there to the lowest  point of the belly, between the gear legs, collects water and other interesting  stuff.

  

 Cost about 3.00 for the plastic fuel valve from the mower  shop.  

  

 I know it is not as effective as a real live gascolator,  but it works for me, and that is what counts.

  

 As long as I don't get lazy and fail to do a good fuel  sample each time I fly and when I refuel, I don't think I will ever have another  fuel problem cause an engine out.

  

 Also have to be religious about checking the fuel filter  and the carb float bowls.

  

 May not be a proven system or procedure, but it is proven  to me.

  

 Take care,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 Rock House, Oregon (Got 5 nice rainbow trout out of the  Owyhee River.  Larry got 4, but I got the biggest one.)

  

 [quote]     I'm even less convinced this would    work with just a piece of tubing going to a valve effectively trying to make    the tubing become a water trap.  I'll have to do a test for this.     Standard practice is usually right though.



P.S. 

I had the plastic    tank with push in rubber bushing at the bottom of the tank for lots of years    and it never leaked.



--------

Scott Olendorf  

 

[b]

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 08:36 PM 10/14/2008, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 Don't know about you, but it works for me.  Gravity pulls the water out of the line when it passes the "T" at the bottom of the loop as it goes under the tail boom.  A single line from there to the lowest point of the belly, between the gear legs, collects water and other interesting stuff. 	


 John, how long a piece of line do you have between the tee and the valve?



 -Dana

 --

  Fugitive from the law of averages!    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

> 

 	  Quote: 	
		   John, how long a piece of line do you have between the tee and the valve?

 

 -Dana

 
	




Dana:



Probably 2 feet.  Maybe 2.5 feet.



john h

mkIII

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

It is not necessary to put your fuel pickup at the lowest point in the tank if you are willing to give up a pint or so of usable fuel. Make your pickup/finger strainer a couple inches above the lowest point of the tank, and the sump drain at the lowest point. Instant gascolator. If you drain the sumps just before you take off, and then top up the tank (if it is that critical) then you only have about a pint of unusable fuel.

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Good to know it works.  I have a  1 foot piece of tubing coming off of a T that is used to drain the tank also.  I've never seen a single drop of water in any samples I've taken from that. I only test it every other month or so.  But I always fill the float bowl and check it before each flight. Never found any water in that either.  



I am now checking it after each flight also since I'm now emptying the bowl back into the tank so I don't have stale fuel in there. I do this if I'm not going to be flying for a week or more.  The 10% ethanol fuel left over for 2 weeks in the bowl won't start the engine.  It goes bad very quickly compared to regular gas which I used to let go for weeks sometimes.

Funny story.  I was at the field a few years ago and one of the guys come to fly his Challenger.  He took off and came back within 5 minutes. He said his engine was running rough. He suspected that the fuel he just put in may have had water in it.  He said "I left it out last night and it rained. I didn't have the spout covered".   Which of course he knew as he was filling the tank.



That same guy was following me to another airport 10 miles away. His instructor said to him "Follow Scott, he'll show you how to get there".  So after 8 miles or so I get a call on the radio from the guy, "I'm right behind you and getting closer. What do I do?"   I said, "TURN".  A third guy in the group said "He's RIGHT behind you".  He was following me all right.  I went full throttle all the way through the pattern and landed as far down the runway as I could.  Last time I flew with him.



 	  lcottrell wrote: 	
		      

 I know it is not as effective as a real live gascolator,  but it works for me, and that is what counts.

  

 As long as I don't get lazy and fail to do a good fuel  sample each time I fly and when I refuel, I don't think I will ever have another  fuel problem cause an engine out.

  

[b]

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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

It sounds like about anything will do the job so I think I am going with something like this: 



http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg13.html



Simple cheap and effective! I could probably make a better one out of some pvc or galvanized  pipe from lowes. using a t fitting to rune 2 fuel barbs and a pipe on the bottom of the T as the sump for the water.



Anyone know how gasoline affects pvc?

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

would my plane even benefit from having one?>>



Nah!!.  Stop worrying. Always leave your fuel tanks topped up and there is 

no room for condensation to form.  Use a water filtering funnel when you 

refuel, if you are worried about buying fuel with water in it. Empty you 

carb. chamber occasionally, evry year or so, and you will be right.



You can get too hung up on all the little things that can go wrong until you 

have redundancy built in all over the place. Where are you going to stop?.

All this fuss a few weeks ago about fitting an extra fuel pump. What for? 

Just look at the figurs. How many planes have had trouible with pump 

failure? There are all sorts of stories about someone who knew someone who 

had a failure but little first hand reporting.

Of course it DOES happen but if it was likely to happen regularly a) the 

manufacturer would fit two pumps and b) the insurance company would load 

your premium if you only had one.



Cool it and go with the flow, man



Cheers



Pat

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Pat



You are too used to being protected by your federal air nanny. In the early 

days of aviation we didn't have the knowledge we have today. There were alot 

of forced landings and worse. Most of us have learned from these problems 

and build in some safe guards to protect ourselves and our mistresses er... 

a... airplanes.



Granted we all have to weigh the cost in dollars/uros and weight against the 

odds but to just say naw just go with the flow is not good advice. When I 

was flying a $3,000 dollar Weedhopper with a 2 stroking time bomb in front 

of me it didn't make alot of sense to build in very much redundancy. Now 

that I fly a Kolb with a bullet proof airframe and a very reliable VW engine 

it makes sense to me to spend $30 for a gascolator and about the same for a 

boost pump. I'm also a bit older and not as invincible as I used to think I 

was.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

You are too used to being protected by your federal air nanny. >>



Hi Rick,

my post was a bit tongue in cheek but I am sure that our `Federal air nanny` 

as you call our flriendly and helpful CAA and Microlight Association 

wouldn`t let me do anything that was dangerous. Would they?



I must say that if I flew over some of the country that you people do, and 

provide such great pics. of I don`t think I would take off without two 

engines (or more) at least



Cheers



Pat

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Don't use the standard PVC with gas, it will have a reaction in time and 

cause more problems. I had to install a temporary PVC line in until we could 

plumb in the steel over head piping and had problems and at $30,000 per hr 

down time I learned quick.



--------------------------------------------------

From: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: 2008-10-15 10:51

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: CT MKIII crash



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It sounds like about anything will do the job so I think I am going with 

 something like this:



 http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg13.html



 Simple cheap and effective! I could probably make a better one out of some 

 pvc or galvanized  pipe from lowes. using a t fitting to rune 2 fuel barbs 

 and a pipe on the bottom of the T as the sump for the water.



 Anyone know how gasoline affects pvc?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 8885#208885

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

How long before there is a reaction to the PVC? We have been running this setup for a year and everything is still doing fine.

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/FSIITankMods.html



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Patrick:

  

 Glad I do not have to follow your  advice.

  

 I mentioned checking carb float bowls recently.  We  have had several engine outs because float bowls were not checked.  Some of  these engine outs resulted in fatalities.   One time I got lazy and  developed a rough running engine because I did not check mine.  Now   I  check them at least once a month, whether I fly or  not. 

  

 Nothing wrong with redundancy.  If you do not want  it, fine!  Probably not a good idea to advise others that it is not  necessary.

  

 Checking float bowls every year or so will get you in  trouble.

  

 Go with the flow, man, but not a good idea to recommend  others do likewise.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 



 [quote]   Nah!!.  

    

    Empty you 

carb. chamber occasionally,    evry year or so, and you will be right.



You can get too hung up on all    the little things that can go wrong until you 

have redundancy built in all    over the place.  

Cool it and go with the flow,    man



Cheers



Pat

 

[b]

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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

I welded up an Aluminum Tank 2"x 6" fuel line in on  top,  Fuel line out to engine 3" up on side, Drain out of bottom You  can mount these with Adel Clamps to your airframe  this is what I made for  my firestar and never had contaminated fuel , I am willing to make as many as  you Kolbers need  for cost of materials and a bit for my  time

 You need to let me know how many fuel lines in and How  many lines out you would like and I can make these larger if you desire it.  

  

 Ellery in Maine trying to get time to work on my  MK3Xtra

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 10/15/2008 9:05:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Patrick:

    

   Glad I do not have to follow your    advice.

    

   I mentioned checking carb float bowls recently.  We    have had several engine outs because float bowls were not checked.  Some    of these engine outs resulted in fatalities.   One time I got lazy    and developed a rough running engine because I did not check mine.  Now     I  check them at least once a month, whether I fly or    not. 

    

   Nothing wrong with redundancy.  If you do not want    it, fine!  Probably not a good idea to advise others that it is not    necessary.

    

   Checking float bowls every year or so will get you in    trouble.

    

   Go with the flow, man, but not a good idea to recommend    others do likewise.

    

   john h

   mkIII

   



    	  Quote: 	
		       Nah!!.  

      

      Empty you 

carb. chamber      occasionally, evry year or so, and you will be right.



You can get too      hung up on all the little things that can go wrong until you 

have      redundancy built in all over the place.  

Cool it and go with the      flow, man



Cheers



Pat

 





="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining00075x1211031713x1200669822/aol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002">Try it out! 

  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

Glad I do not have to follow your  advice.>>

  

 Hi John,

 if I did your sort of flying I woukld have  EVERYTHING  duplicated, every nut locked, and wired and use only fuel  straight from ther best garage in the district and then I would filter it 3  times.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg28f.html

Great Plains Gascolator  

This Gascolator is a high quality, low cost fuel filter and water strainer. It should be installed at a low point in the fuel system, below the fuel tank to trap any water that may accumulate so it can be drained. The gascolator has a 10 micron fuel filterand an 1/8" pipe thread outlet for a quick fuel drain valve (not included). If you are using a fuel pump, the pump should be installed between the carb and the gascolator. 



Price . . . $29.95. 

Curtis Quick Drain Valve for use on Gascolator . . . $11.75. 	






Does the above gascolator have a clear bowl? Plastic?

I guess you need to drill a hole in it for the quick drain valve?



Looks good, we should all have one since ethanol is getting into our fuels and cooling temperature changes may cause the ethanol to release water into our fuel.

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Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: CT MKIII crash

At 04:04 PM 11/10/2008, jb92563 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   > http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg28f.html



Does the above gascolator have a clear bowl? Plastic?

I guess you need to drill a hole in it for the quick drain valve?


	


It looks like a metal bowl.  Probably there's a plug that's removed to 

install the drain valve.  Seems nobody makes a glass one with drain valve 

any more... I've been tempted to make one myself (glass sight glass tubing 

is readily available in various sizes).  My thought was Delrin endcaps, 

o-ring seals, glass tube body, and assembly hardware that can be 

safetied.  Not sure how to add a filter, probably use a separate commercial 

filter.



-Dana

--

  Congress shall make no law....What part of NO didn't you understand?

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: CT MKIII crash

I bought one of the Great Plains gascolators with the Curtis drain

valve, with the intention of installing it in the Allegro we used to

own. The space available was not sufficient so we did not install it.

It appears to be very well built and smaller in size than many, which

I like. The bowl is metal and not the least bit transparent .



Thom in Buffalo

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Re: CT MKIII crash

Contact Bear Perkins  www.bearperkins.com/  He has a light weight  gascolator with a big clear plastic bowl and a very fine mesh screen on the output side. I am using this on my plane. It has a plug drain on the bowl. Cost was $70



He also has good prices and stock on many rotax parts as well.

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