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Kit or Scratch?

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BobCollins

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Sunnyvale CA USA

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

I have a question for everyone, but especially those of you like Chris 

Lewis who are building from plans (scratch building).



What do you think the cost comparison is between the raw materials and 

Zenith's kit? My workshop instructor felt that there might be little or 

no savings over buying the kit. Considering my knowledge of how business 

works, this might be true.



Again, for the scratch builders, where are you buying your metal? Are 

you able to find it locally or do you have to order it from places such 

are Aircraft Spruce or Wicks? Do the plans recommend the size and 

quantity of raw stock to buy?



Third question. For those of you who have viewed it, what do you think 

of the "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD from 

HomebuiltHELP.com?



Thanks,



Bob Collins

Sunnyvale CA USA



CH750 (well, sitting here with a fine new 701/750 rudder)

John75142

Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Kaufman, TX

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

I personally have found all materials locally and by my best guess it should 

cost about half of the kit price if not more. And with the fact that you are 

going to screw up a few parts being able to make them over yourself even 

adds up to more of a savings. That being said I am familiar with working 

metal and have most of the equipment needed to cut and bend all the pieces 

so it was not an option for me given a limited budget.

John (Scratch building 701)

Kaufman, Tx

---

_________________
John Short

bryanekholm

Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Kit or Scratch?

For me I would say I will save about a quarter to a third of the cost of the airframe kit by building from plans.  Of course I bought my aluminum about six or seven years ago.  The prices were much lower back then.  Many of the steel welded parts I have purchased from ZAC since I'm not a welder.  I will be bending my own main gear leg (haven't done that yet, but the 8' aluminum bar I bought cost me $85 as opposed to $505 from ZAC).  If you scratch build you will need to have access to a 6' bending brake for the longer parts and it's nice to have a smaller brake for the smaller parts.



Bryan Ekholm

_________________
Bryan Ekholm

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

A lot depends on if you have or don't mind buying the extra tools and how 

close you are to materials sources for alum.  I haven't priced alum lately 

so can only comment on when I bought which was about 3 yrs ago.  The "kit" 

took me about 5 weeks of part time work to make and I saved about $7K  plus 

or minus a little.  This is my 4 th homebuilt so have a full shop and all 

the stuff to build it. Lots of guys say it doubles the time but I had all 

the stuff built that comes in the kit in 5 weeks (still haven't bent the 

gear yet) so that's what it added to my build time.

Another advantage is you read of parts that are ruined by the builder and 

the time and expense it takes to replace, if you already have the form 

blocks and material you can fab another from scrap material in the time it 

takes for the kit builder to make out a check and walk it to the mailbox.

MOST of the tools needed are required either way,  the driven rivets are 

BEST driven with a rivet gun . I can't imagine not having compressed air but 

a compressor can be bought used and resold (you won't sell it ) at the end 

of the project to recoup if necessary.

Same for the welding equipment,  you can farm those parts if you wish or buy 

from Zenith.

It's really nice we have a choice.

John



---

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Bob

For me it was more about how I spent the money than should I spend it.

I have found that buying only what I need for a particular phase allowed

me to get this far.

I am about to complete the rt wing, having completed the tail section

and left wing.



I think you will find a pride in building each component, as I have

found.



Yes, I had to build a shop that I did not have, and buy a lot of tools

that I did not have,

The secondary benefit is that I am now able to tackle the honey-dos

around the house a lot better that before because of the accumulation of

tools and new knowledge.



I know the spending will increase as I get closer to the engine/panel

etc, but I still plan to phase these areas in.



I can truly say I would not have gotten this far without the Homebuilt

Help videos.  I find that looking at the plans you don't know where to

start.

Following the path set out in the videos, and using the plans I can

build an airplane.



If you build form a kit, you still should invest in the videos.



Good luck deciding and building.  This list has also been invaluable to

me personally.  The guys here usually ask and answer questions I have or

will have and the knowledge speeds up my decisions and actions.



Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc

Consulting Engineers

Ph 337-261-1976  Fx 337-261-1977

Do not archive

--

Chris Lewis

Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Seattle

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Kit or Scratch?

Bob - I'm a former toolbelt guy who's been flying a desk for 15+ years now. To say that I miss the pride in creating something from nearly nothing (or at least raw materials) is an understatement.



This basic need to create and my issues around size along with the new SP reg's made my decision simple (for me). It will certainly take longer and may or may not save a ton of $$, but it's been a great experience to date.



I did have to buy/make some tools, but there's a lot of help available there. I've ordered aluminum from Wick's to this point, but have had real shipping issues.



I was bolstered in my delusions by Chris Heintz's personal attention to my request for review and approval of my mods. I even travelled to the grand opening of Quality Sportsplanes in Cloverdale, just to meet him personally and deliver a small palm sized model of my plane that I made as a thank you. We spoke at length about the joys of scratch building and knowing that "I made this myself" at the end of the day. I plan to build a Corvair powerplant as well to keep the theme alive.



I have conversed with Mark from Can-Zac many times and have found him to be most helpful. I own the Scratch building and Sheet Metal 101 video's from Homebuilt Help and would highly recommend them. They are not Hollywood quality, rather homey and useful. Jon Croke has gone to a lot of effort to help demystify the process and many of his video's are worth owning.



The only wrinkle in my plans and approach was the actual arrival of the CH750. It is all of the things I was trying to achieve on my own and then some. I've shelved my project for now and am awaiting my set of 750 plans for review. I may choose to switch over to building the 750, or just take some of the high points and add them to my project.



I have the luxury of time. I'm in no hurry and likely never will be. I lead a busy life (like everyone) and am pleased to see the developments in the CH 7 series, the Corvair movement and the efforts from StolSpeed in continuing real-world experimenting with VG's.



For me, there's no other path. Each of you will need to weigh your own desires, skills and goals and go forth. I truly love that Zenith gives us all options to suit.



Chris in Seattle

_________________
750/ Zen-vair Semi-Scratch Builder
N750XT (reserved)

agibeaut

Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

This being my first attempt at building an aircraft with little or no metal experience I did not think I could handle scratch building in early 2007 when I decided to go forward with a CH 701. I also could not see buying all of the tools necessary to scratch build, and the added time was also an issue. I was actually a little intimidated by the thought of plans building and had nothing but respect for the people that had done it. It came down to time and money and the normal trade-offs of a busy life. So I went to the Rudder Class at Zenith and started buying components kits as I needed them. Zenith is absolutely top notch when it come to help for novice builders and I am glad I chose a 701. 



So now, a year and four months later, I've ended up buying all of the tools including a brake, 3 air drills, an angle drill, various sheet metal hand tools, Olfa knives (note plural), a supply of 6061 T6 sheets in various thicknesses, and a dandy compressor which I will never sell. I have the wings, tail, rear fuselage, cabin, and firewall done and I'm not nearly as concerned with getting this project completed as fast as I once was. I spent the money to save the time, and now I don't care about the time. I look forward to the "escape" of building nearly everyday and I know I'm going to miss this when I have it done. 



I bought the tools and the exta sheets of alum a little at a time as I screwed up small parts and was too embarrassed to admit it so I could quietly remake them. Fact is, that is again part of the fun. You are going to get into jams from time to time and it is great having the tools and extra aluminum around to figure out the solution and move on.



Would I do it the same way again? Not sure! But the next time I won't be so naive as to think it is all about the time and the money. Oh it is still about those two items, but I had them in the wrong order. I think I'll plans build the next one.



do not archive



__________________________________________________

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

I had built a Starduster, or arther I finished a partly built one a few 

years ago and enjoyed doing it.  Then rebuilt a kitfox, then one day got the 

itch to try something in metal.  Maybe composite next???

I had some temporary health problems a few years ago and while I got my 

medical back I wanted to build a low and slow sport pilot airplane to fly 

from our grass strip behind the house.

So I was lucky to find a guy selling a never started kit for much less than 

Zenith would have charged for a new one. So I called a couple of retired 

buddies and off we went with a horse trailer to Oklahoma!

Now that I have 20 hours on it, I'm enjoying every second of it, more with 

each flight if that's even possible!   Once you find it handles a bit 

different from anything I had flown before it turned out to be  very docile 

and really FUN aircraft!

No blazing speed, but that isn't what the 701 is all about!  I still have 

yet to hit 3 digits on the airspeed indicator even in a dive, but it reads 

low by about 10 mph, not that it matters.....! No matter what it says I 

won't get there any faster!

So if there is anyone out there getting discouraged, keep nibbling away at 

it and you'll be done before you know it and you'll really have fun flying 

it!  Guaranteed!

I really respect you scratch builders out there.  I also can really 

recommend the Homebuilt Help Series of Videos, which unfortunately I didn't 

find out till I was 80% done.  They are invaluable and if I'd had them 

earlier I'd saved myself several goof ups and many hours of head scratching.

---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Hi Bokat,

If you're possibly interested in composite, our chapter has a donated 

Glasair RG for sale. Owner was T-boned on the highway and lost his medical.

The Glasair has over $100,000.00 materials in it, and is ready for the 

engine. Here's nearly 200 mph and 24 mpg with retractible gear for an asking

of $50K OBO.  I think it's a beautiful aircraft. Pictures on site see link,



*www.eaa75.com/Glassair.pdf*



**

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

**



BokKat wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I had built a Starduster, or arther I finished a partly built one a 

 few years ago and enjoyed doing it.  Then rebuilt a kitfox, then one 

 day got the itch to try something in metal.  Maybe composite next???

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Kit or Scratch?

I figure the cost at about 1/3 , but the big factor is that you can buy a sheet or two at a time and your in business. That said, mine will cost more then my estimate as I am going to purchase all the welded parts and main gear ect... There is a material list at http://www.ch701.com/ and there is one in the Zenith builders site too. Add it up for your self. Or buy the plans and make yourself a Daves sheet metal brake and build a rudder. Add up the costs and get a rudder quote for the the rudder at  Zenith builders site. I have scrapped one rudder tip, two rudder main spars( build the brake, you can not form this part) 3 stabilizer ribs, one elevator rib and one front stabilizer spar, so call the scrap 1/2 sheet of $80.00 per sheet material. Try to find a local source as shipping will eat you alive, compared to the material price, if ordered in small manageable "batches".

Ok now I see that I have written one long run on paragraph again, so I guess I'll go have another cup of coffee....    



Kevin

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Bob,

Depending on several variables, raw materials cost could be approximately 30-40% of the current 701 kit price.  I'm in the Aviation Capital so I have no issues finding aircraft grade materials, but Yarde Metal online is a good resource if you need have it shipped in.  No, disappointingly the plans do not include material quantites, this is left up to the builder to determine.  If your debating of whether or not to scratchbuild, the DVD is priceless overview of what you could anticipate.



do not archive

Art Olechowski

750 Plans/701 Rudder

--- On Thu, 10/16/08, Bob Collins <bobcollins42(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Bob Collins <bobcollins42(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Kit or  Scratch?

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 8:21 PM



[quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Bob Collins

<bobcollins42(at)gmail.com>



I have a question for everyone, but especially those of you like Chris 

Lewis who are building from plans (scratch building).



What do you think the cost comparison is between the raw materials and 

Zenith's kit? My workshop instructor felt that there might be little or 

no savings over buying the kit. Considering my knowledge of how business 

works, this might be true.



Again, for the scratch builders, where are you buying your metal? Are 

you able to find it locally or do you have to order it from places such 

are Aircraft Spruce or Wicks? Do the plans recommend the size and 

quantity of raw stock to buy?



Third question. For those of you who have viewed it, what do you think 

of the "Scratch Building Basics for [quote][b]

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Art and Bob  

CH701.com under Builders Resources has a couple of good spreadsheets listing all or maybe 99.99% of the materials  

It is user supplied.  

   

Randall J Hebert  

   

Do Not Archive  

           

Bob,

   No, disappointingly the plans do not include material quantites, this is left   up to the builder to determine.      	  Quote: 	
		  

  

  	
     

   

      [quote][b]

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Randall,

You absolutely correct, and I'm aware of them but they don't (currently) work for scratching the 750, only the 701.  Ideally, Zenith should include a list of raw materials as part of the plans since they know exact quantities, of course you would have to add in waste and rework percentages of your own.  Just seems weird that they don't list quantities since its already a known for them.

Art 



--- On Sun, 10/19/08, Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>

Subject: RE: Kit or Scratch?

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 11:06 AM



             

Art and Bob   

CH701.com under Builders Resources has a couple of good spreadsheets listing all or maybe 99.99% of the materials   

It is user supplied.   

     

Randall J Hebert   

     

Do Not Archive   

             

Bob,

   No, disappointingly the plans do not include material quantites, this is left   up to the builder to determine.       	  Quote: 	
		      	
      

     

      [quote][b]

randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Sorry  

I didn’t see you guys were talking 750  

But Yes I agree A Bill of Materials should accompany the plans  

   

Do Not Archive  

   

Randall J Hebert  

           

Randall,

   You absolutely correct, and I'm aware of them but they don't (currently) work   for scratching the 750,          

     

   

        

   

      [quote][b]

keystone(at)gci.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

Bob



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my perspective the question is do you enjoy building airplanes or

flying more?  I enjoyed building my plane but I really enjoy flying!  I
	


suspect more kits are finished just because they are a lot less work.  



Bill Wilcox

N801BW

Valdez, AK

405 hrs

A couple more hunting trips before I put in the preservation oil for the

winter.

blarson(at)meridianhouse.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

The problems with material lists:



1. The efficiencies of various people in their "nesting" aptitude will 

greatly effect the amount of material required. The amount of waste is 

rather unpredictable in this regard. 



2. If Zenith does specify a quantity people will jump on them because 

they ordered short or long on their quantity which in turn costs the 

builder money (didn't order enough and incurred additional shipping 

costs or has to order too much and extra material they don't want/need).



I do agree there should be a list of materials with approximate 

quantities with the stipulation that "your mileage may GREATLY vary." 



Art Olechowski wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Randall,

 You absolutely correct, and I'm aware of them but they don't 

 (currently) work for scratching the 750, only the 701.  Ideally, 

 Zenith should include a list of raw materials as part of the plans 

 since they know exact quantities, of course you would have to add in 

 waste and rework percentages of your own.  Just seems weird that they 

 don't list quantities since its already a known for them.

 Art



 --- On *Sun, 10/19/08, Randall J. Hebert /<randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>/* 

 wrote:



     From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>

     Subject: RE: Kit or Scratch?

     To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

     Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 11:06 AM



     Art and Bob



     CH701.com under Builders Resources has a couple of good

     spreadsheets listing all or maybe 99.99% of the materials



     It is user supplied.



      



     Randall J Hebert



      



     Do Not Archive



      



     Bob,

     No, disappointingly the plans do not include material quantites,

     this is left up to the builder to determine. 

       



       **



      



     *

     *

rwehba(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Kit or Scratch?

on the ch701.com site there is a pdf and dxf file that has a breakdown of the materials needed it is drawn onto the sheets as to how to cut for best use.



ronnie wehba



--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Brad Larson <blarson(at)meridianhouse.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Brad Larson <blarson(at)meridianhouse.com>

Subject: Re: Kit or Scratch?

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:19 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Brad Larson

<blarson(at)meridianhouse.com>



The problems with material lists:



1. The efficiencies of various people in their "nesting" aptitude

will 

greatly effect the amount of material required. The amount of waste is 

rather unpredictable in this regard. 



2. If Zenith does specify a quantity people will jump on them because 

they ordered short or long on their quantity which in turn costs the 

builder money (didn't order enough and incurred additional shipping 

costs or has to order too much and extra material they don't want/need).



I do agree there should be a list of materials with approximate 

quantities with the stipulation that "your mileage may GREATLY vary."





Art Olechowski wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Randall,

 You absolutely correct, and I'm aware of them but they don't 

 (currently) work for scratching the 750, only the 701.  Ideally, 

 Zenith should include a list of raw materials as part of the plans 

 since they know exact quantities, of course you would have to add in 

 waste and rework percentages of your own.  Just seems weird that they 

 don't list quantities since its already a known for them.

 Art



 --- On *Sun, 10/19/08, Randall J. Hebert

/<randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>/* 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   wrote:



     From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>

     Subject: RE: Kit or Scratch?

     To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

     Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 11:06 AM



     Art and Bob



     CH701.com under Builders Resources has a couple of good

     spreadsheets listing all or maybe 99.99% of the materials



     It is user supplied.



      



     Randall J Hebert



      



     Do Not Archive



      



     Bob,

     No, disappointingly the plans do not include material quantites,

     this is left up to the builder to determine. 

       



       **



      



     *

     *




	






	
	


         [quote][b]

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