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Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

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AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

I put in a bunch of work perfecting my windshield's fit and finish including 220 sanding the edges to perfection. 



Today with the assistance of my friend Jae who is also building an RV10 we did the install with Weld-on. Having heard the stories about cracks and crazing I took a supreme amount of caution to not over-clamp the plastic.

I USED ONLY ENOUGH PRESSURE TO HOLD THE PLASTIC DWN.



We used 6 clamps - 3 on each side with quite light pressure. When the clamps were removed, I was appalled to see 6 sets of crazed patterns emanating from the site where the clamps were. I am still dumbfounded, but it is obvious that even the slightest clamping force causes the cracks.

I would strongly urge against Weld-on. I had some crazing before on a rear window, but thought that it might have been my fault. WRONG



As far as I can see - ANY CLAMPING WITH WELD ON IS TOO MUCH CLAMPING.



Dave Saylor has another system. I urge you to look it up and use it.



This Weld-On stuff does something to the plastic and screws it up,



Appreciate any other comments on Crack-on adhesive

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

Mike -



I am feeling your pain tonight.  Photographers with a Polarizing lens

(one that rotates perpendicular to the lines of illumination) can rotate

the lens and read the stress induced lines that are introduced into the

plexi. It's a Mr. Wizard or Nye the Science Guy kind of thing.

Polarizing sunglasses with discrete use and placement of the light

(illumination) source will do the same thing.  It is amazing the stress

that is applied when clamping plexi.  Weld On chemically alters the

plexi to affect the adhesion properties of the product. Solvents present

in Weld-On do their chemistry by magic.



In A&P school I "stop drilled" a developing crack using a 1/8" (Plexi)

drill bit.  Then I inserted a 1/8" rod stock into the hole with solvent.

I thought it would be nice to fill the stop drill hole to impress my

instructor.  The next day I found those 1,000 points of light from the

swollen rod stock.  Learned a valuable lesson.  Know your chemistry.

Read the plexi.  Use smaller rod stock. Try a sample.



Like all composite work.  Use two coupons of similar material (one of

plexi the other of fiberglass) and test your chemistry before investing

the final product to production.  Your recommendation of Dave Saylor's

work is wise advise.  Hope others learn by your efforts.  Remember to

work with warm not cold Plexi.



Removal of scratches or keeping a polished final finish is another

subject, for later.



John Cox

40600



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

I AM GETTING READY TO DO THE FRONT WINDSCREEN AND SOMEONE MENTIONED USING HYSOL C WHAT WAS THE HYSOL #?

  

 THANKS C

  

 JOHN GONZALEZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

 From: Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net

 Date: Sun C 19 Oct 2008 22:00:44 -0700

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

 

 I put in a bunch of work perfecting my windshield's fit and finish including 220 sanding the edges to perfection. 

 

 Today with the assistance of my friend Jae who is also building an RV10 we did the install with Weld-on. Having heard the stories about cracks and crazing I took a supreme amount of caution to not over-clamp the plastic.

 I USED ONLY ENOUGH PRESSURE TO HOLD THE PLASTIC DWN.

 

 We used 6 clamps - 3 on each side with quite light pressure. When the clamps were removed C I was appalled to see 6 sets of crazed patterns emanating from the site where the clamps were. I am still dumbfounded C but it is obvious that even the slightest clamping force causes the cracks.

 I would strongly urge against Weld-on. I had some crazing before on a rear window C but thought that it might have been my fault. WRONG

 

 As far as I can see - ANY CLAMPING WITH WELD ON IS TOO MUCH CLAMPING.

 

 Dave Saylor has another system. I urge you to look it up and use it.

 

 This Weld-On stuff does something to the plastic and screws it up C

 

 Appreciate any other comments on Crack-on adhesive

 

 --------

 OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in &quot;09

 Q/B Kit - wiring and FWF

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=209428#209428

 

 

 Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C
	


&gt=====================

 	  Quote: 	
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  [quote][b]

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

I think the Hysol number was 4360, but I would suggest you search the archives. Turned out that Hysol did not work well for at least one builder. I think it was Rob Hickman that had the problems. I was going to use Hysol, but changed back to Weld-On when I heard about poor adhesion issues. No problems with the Weld-On.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

Just a bit of info on the subject of alternatives to Weld-on,  I had planned 

on using Scotch Weld 2216 which was recommend to me by a 3M rep at OSH.  I 

bought a small amount and did some experimenting with it recently on a scrap 

of window and canopy.  After sanding and prepping both parts properly, the 

bond did not hold up as I would have hoped.  I put one part in a vice and 

pulled as to apply peal pressure to the bond.  After a week of curing at 

around 70 deg, the bond popped apart rather easily.  I performed this test 

several times and the bond always failed on the lexan side, releasing almost 

completely with very little trace of epoxy left on the window scrap.  I now 

plan to use Weld-on but have concerns about crazing.



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA (Reserved)

Muskego, WI



---

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

IMHO Vans has not thought out the design of the window install very well.

Other designs capture the window in between two lips of fiberglass.  Then

you don't need to worry about how good the adhesion of the acrylic is.



Acrylic is very susceptible to chemical crazing.  Thus you can avoid it by

capturing it between fiberglass and not worrying about the bond.  The method

has been described here several times and Glasair, Glastar, Lancair all use

this method.  Some have the capture on the inside and some on the outside.



Gary

40274 Flying



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

That's the method I was referring to Phoenix Composites. After the initial

bond two fiberglass Eglass strips are bonded around the exterior edge. For

clamping use the bent aluminum fingers and clecoes.



Do not archive 



--

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

Dave,



  Be careful throwing around trade names.  If you went to the 3M guys and said you wanted to bond Lexan and fiberglass you would be wrong which could have led to your problem.  Lexan is polycarbonate which is not what we have.  We have acrylic windows which also goes by the trade name Plexiglass.  Might not have made a difference but I have no idea.



Michael



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

Depending on Trade name, it is important to specific the correct

substrates.  It is also great practice to take a sample of each and use

the properly glued product to judge the result before committing a

several hundred dollar plexi windscreen to the canopy.  Lexan(tm) brings

a whole new set of problems into the final equation.



Dave's effort at a sample coupon sacrificed for the cause, is a great

step.  I would bet he actually used plexi cut from the original screen.

Proper preparation of the surfaces can make all the difference in the

adhesion.  Crazing is a chemistry and stress matter.  Those coupons can

be used to show the effects of various window cleaner chemicals as well.



LP Plastics - George  and

AP Plastics - Jeff can both give you a great baseline of data.  LP has

offered to provide thicker and tinted versions of the RV-10 product

line.  That is another story.



It sounds like Dave was sold by the 3M rep, which is the salesman's job.



John Cox

Do not Archive



--

RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

I tried the following from Lancair:  

9360 Hysol  is a two-component toughened paste adhesive, which combines high peel strength  at room temperature with tensile lap shear strength at 225°F to 250°F (107°C to  121°C). 

  

My front  windshield is still in with this along with two layers of fiberglass over the  top.  I installed the side windows with WeldOn 10 and had absolutely no  problems with it.    In all the testing I did after the  windows fell out the first time showed that the Hysol does not make a very  strong bond and the WeldOn does. 

Before you  do anything you should test your procedures and the product on a test  piece. 

Rob  Hickman 

RV-10  N402RH (Stuck in Cylinder recall Hell) 

 



New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

What bonding agent failed on the windows the first time? Which windows failed? 

  

 I will be putting fiberglass over the edges of all windows C but the front windscreen will need more than two layers to hold it in place if the underlying bond fails. 

  

 John G.

   

 From: RobHickman(at)aol.com

Date: Tue C 21 Oct 2008 14:28:19 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

  I tried the following from Lancair:  

9360 Hysol is a two-component toughened paste adhesive C which combines high peel strength at room temperature with tensile lap shear strength at 225°F to 250°F (107°C to 121°C). 

  

My front windshield is still in with this along with two layers of fiberglass over the top.  I installed the side windows with WeldOn 10 and had absolutely no problems with it.    In all the testing I did after the windows fell out the first time showed that the Hysol does not make a very strong bond and the WeldOn does. 

Before you do anything you should test your procedures and the product on a test piece. 

Rob Hickman 

RV-10 N402RH (Stuck in Cylinder recall Hell) 

 



   New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining C Movies C Events C News & more. Try it out! 

[quote]



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

Match:      #6        Message:      #17373            From:      RobHickman(at)aol.com            Date:      Jun 30, 2008            Subject:      Hysol 9360 Test and Window    Install

  

             Match:      #10        Message:      #17334            From:      RobHickman(at)aol.com            Date:      Jun 27, 2008            Subject:      Hysol 9360 Window install    update

  

 Read these in the archives.

  

 Rob Hickman

 N402RH RV-10

  



New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & m2/aol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002">Try it out! 

  [quote][b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

It appears that the issue here is about clamping force/compression distribution and both products have their drawbacks but that Hysol is not being used in the same way on the 10 as on the Lancairs. 

  

 Better distribute the force with the Weld on. Again C I had no problems on the rear windows C but they didn't need to bend to get them to fit.

  

 John G.

   

 From: RobHickman(at)aol.com

Date: Tue C 21 Oct 2008 16:41:55 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

      Match:  #6  Message:  #17373    From:  RobHickman(at)aol.com    Date:  Jun 30 C 2008    Subject:  Hysol 9360 Test and Window Install

  

     Match:  #10  Message:  #17334    From:  RobHickman(at)aol.com    Date:  Jun 27 C 2008    Subject:  Hysol 9360 Window install update

  

 Read these in the archives.

  

 Rob Hickman

 N402RH RV-10

  



   New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining C Movies C Events C News & m2/aol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002">Try it out! 

[quote]



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

The Lancair window flange is also about 2" wide and the windows are  installed from the inside of the plane.

  

 Rob Hickman

 N402RH RV-10



New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events,1200669822/aol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002">Try it out! 

  [quote][b]

capsteve(at)iflyrv10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

After the last post about the relatively light clamping  pressure and the appearance of cracks, leads me to believe that perhaps the weld  on product may create some exothermic heat during cure. Isn't it possible  that the clamps may not be cracking the plexi from pressure but from the  concentration of heat. or the lack of even temps during cure? Now I don't have  any experience with weld on adhesive, but I'd be curious to here if anyone  thinks this is possible.

 Steve DiNieri

 iflyrv10.com

 40208

  

  



  From: John Gonzalez (indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:00 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst  (Crazing)

 



It appears that the issue here is about clamping  force/compression distribution and both products have their drawbacks but that  Hysol is not being used in the same way on the 10 as on the Lancairs.  

 

Better distribute the force with the Weld on. Again, I had no  problems on the rear windows, but they didn't need to bend to get them to  fit.

 

John G.

[quote] [b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)

To measure exothermic, just mix a batch in a cup and then use an IR pistol thermometer from Harbor Freight to measure any temperature rise over the pot life.  Temperatures beyond the product range can create adverse results.  

   

The IR gun will be invaluable at tracking sparkplug fowling, hot axle bearings and when not to insert your arm into the lower cowl near the exhaust stacks which have not cooled enough.  

   

John C.  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DiNieri

 Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 2:30 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)  

  

  

     

After the last post about the relatively light clamping pressure and the appearance of cracks, leads me to believe that perhaps the weld on product may create some exothermic heat during cure. Isn't it possible that the clamps may not be cracking the plexi from pressure but from the concentration of heat. or the lack of even temps during cure? Now I don't have any experience with weld on adhesive, but I'd be curious to here if anyone thinks this is possible.  

    

Steve DiNieri  

    

iflyrv10.com  

    

40208  

    

   

      

   

      

From: John Gonzalez (indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:00 PM  

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Subject: RE: Re: Windows and Weld-on angst (Crazing)  

  

  

    

   

  

It appears that the issue here is about clamping force/compression distribution and both products have their drawbacks but that Hysol is not being used in the same way on the 10 as on the Lancairs. 

  

 Better distribute the force with the Weld on. Again, I had no problems on the rear windows, but they didn't need to bend to get them to fit.

  

 John G.

 

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