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exhaust in cabin

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cookflys(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Finished building and statred flying this summer a mod ll. With the weather turning cooler I flew with the doors closed a couple of days ago and I am getting an exhaust smell. Could this be comming from the bungee access area? 

 Charles Cook

 Mod ll 582  Atl 



         [quote][b]

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Could be. Or from around cowling/firewall seal. Get a CO detector if you don't have one already. Cheap insurance.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Mon, 10/27/08, charles cook <cookflys(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: charles cook <cookflys(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: exhaust in cabin

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 9:29 PM



      Finished building and statred flying this summer a mod ll. With the weather turning cooler I flew with the doors closed a couple of days ago and I am getting an exhaust smell. Could this be comming from the bungee access area? 

 Charles Cook

 Mod ll 582  Atl 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


         [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

At 06:29 PM 10/27/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Could this be comming from the bungee access area?


	


I would think so. I have mine sealed.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Re: exhaust in cabin

[quote="cookflys(at)yahoo.com"]Finished building and statred flying this summer a mod ll. With the weather turning cooler I flew with the doors closed a couple of days ago and I am getting an exhaust smell. Could this be comming from the bungee access area? 

 Charles Cook

 Mod ll 582  Atl 



          	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




On my first flight I had no sealing around the buggees and had exhaust smell in the cabin.  I stuffed foam rubber in the openging and that stopped the smell.  Carbon monoxide is oder less so I have a CO detector too.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: exhaust in cabin

Tom,



  I have the same problem.  I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I have a grove gear, and it didn't help.  I then extended the exhaust pipe.  You can go as long as you want  - post muffler.  That reduced it, but this is now about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this.  We had been opening the door on a regular basis to get fresh air.  We are not very well sealed either Cabin air wise.  I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to baffle the part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector.  If that doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube extending to at least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths.

  I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy.



larry

kitfoxnick

Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Maryland

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Re: exhaust in cabin

I had the same problem in my IV with a 912 ul.  I first extended the tail piece.  While this was a little better it didn't solve the problem in fact it created another problem.  After a few hours the muffler developed a crack from the added unsupported weight.  I cut the stock exhaust pipe parrellel with the fuselage and since then I have no CO issues.

Nick W.

P.s. My bungee holes are not sealed.

_________________
Nick Weiskopf
Norrisville, MD
kitfox !V-1200
Rotax 912ul

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Have a look at a Piper Aztec.  Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalk

and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders.

Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaust

pipe.  That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe

projects a few inches into the tube.  The idea is the exhaust, CO and noise

is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure.  They

say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around  the extruders may

be the reason.



The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is

a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working!

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 

Aerocet 1100 floats



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

I always love the topic of "unsupported tailpipes" because it gives  

me a chance to display what did, and imagine what could have, happen  

(ed) if you leave your pipes unsupported, especially if you extend  

them to any degree. I was dumb enough to do both, and got lucky when  

it didn't progress any further than what is pictured. You can see  

that the (then) open exhaust licked at the firesleeve-covered fuel  

line and the motormount, and got behind the flange of the battery  

box...the black item at the left of the picture. Three weeks later,  

the battery gave out, and I investigated and found the battery had  

melted from the heat. Here's a shameless plug for Odyssey  

batteries...took a lickin' and kept on tickin'



The last picture is of a stainless steel heat deflector that I built,  

just in case the problem should ever occur again, and it also shows  

how I supported the tail pipes.



This is a Jabiru installation, but a similar deflector/support method  

could be used on other engines.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs +

Sensenich 62x46

flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system



On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:33 PM, nick4853 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I had the same problem in my IV with a 912 ul.  I first extended  

 the tail piece.  While this was a little better it didn't solve the  

 problem in fact it created another problem.  After a few hours the  

 muffler developed a crack from the added unsupported weight.  I cut  

 the stock exhaust pipe parrellel with the fuselage and since then I  

 have no CO issues.

 Nick W.

 P.s. My bungee holes are not sealed.



 --------

 kitfox !V-1200

 Rotax 912ul



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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Unsupported long tailpipes can indeed be a problem. Mine has extra springs,

safety wired just in case, and it is *always* part of my pre-flight to grab

my extra-long tailpipe and give it a good shake.  



Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

My flight instructor has similar devices on his Widgeon, and he calls  

them "augmenters."



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs +

Sensenich 62x46

flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system



On Oct 28, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Have a look at a Piper Aztec.  Yes I know it's a bit like comparing  

 chalk

 and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called  

 extruders.

 Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the  

 exhaust

 pipe.  That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe

 projects a few inches into the tube.  The idea is the exhaust, CO  

 and noise

 is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back  

 pressure.  They

 say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around  the  

 extruders may

 be the reason.



 The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise  

 but it is

 a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working!

 Noel Loveys

 AME Intern, RPP

 Kitfox III-A,

 Aerocet 1100 floats



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Sounds like a good plan, Bob.



Just for the record, I saw an even better method of supporting a  

tailpipe when I was at Oshkosh this past summer. This idea came from  

an award-winning (I believe) Hatz biplane.



There are two of these hangers on each pipe...you can just barely see  

the mounting bracket for the second one. His is way better than the  

"rubber strap" hangar like I used on mine, and someday I'll change  

them out for this type of hanger....completely fireproof. It's just a  

length of SS cable, a nicopress sleeve, a hose clamp, and a short  

length of SS tubing...simplicity itself! I just got to thinking that  

you could even leave off the SS tubing, and use another nicopress  

sleeve for the two loops of SS cable to run through, and clamp that  

to the pipe. That would bring the two hangers a bit closer together,  

but it might work in some circumstances.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system



On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Unsupported long tailpipes can indeed be a problem. Mine has extra  

 springs,

 safety wired just in case, and it is *always* part of my pre-flight  

 to grab

 my extra-long tailpipe and give it a good shake. 



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Gents 

 

be careful when modifying the 582 exhaust (especially with extractor type extensions) as they are a timed exhaust system which relies on pressure pulses to assist in charging the cylinders with fresh fuel/air mix. If you reduce the pressure on the outlet I'm sure that will have an effect on performance. This is not a problem with 4 stroke engines. 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

29/10/2008 08:23 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: Re: exhaust in cabin 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 

 Have a look at a Piper Aztec.  Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalk

 and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders.

 Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaust

 pipe.  That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe

 projects a few inches into the tube.  The idea is the exhaust, CO and noise

 is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure.  They

 say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around  the extruders may

 be the reason.

 

 The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is

 a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working!

 

 

 Noel Loveys

 AME Intern, RPP

 Kitfox III-A, 

 Aerocet 1100 floats

 

 

 

 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Regardless what they are called (I may have been wrong...again ) it is my

experience they work well without increasing back pressure.  They are light,

simple to construct and will take care of the CO entering the cabin I'm not

sure if they will also help reduce staining on the bottom of the plane.



The Widgeon is a beautiful plane especially for this neck of the woods.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: exhaust in cabin

Would the tube C as described C have extractor properties. Seems there wouldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length C thus not creating a venturi effect.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 

   

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: exhaust in cabin

From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

Date: Wed C 29 Oct 2008 11:18:02 +0930

Gents 



be careful when modifying the 582 exhaust (especially with extractor type extensions) as they are a timed exhaust system which relies on pressure pulses to assist in charging the cylinders with fresh fuel/air mix. If you reduce the pressure on the outlet I'm sure that will have an effect on performance. This is not a problem with 4 stroke engines. 



Gary



Gary Algate

SMC C Exploration

Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review C dissemination C distribution C or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error C kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 





    



"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>  Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

29/10/2008 08:23 AM 

Please respond to

kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 

      To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>    cc

    Subject

 RE: Re: exhaust in cabin

     



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



Have a look at a Piper Aztec.  Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalk

and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders.

Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaust

pipe.  That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe

projects a few inches into the tube.  The idea is the exhaust C CO and noise

is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure.  They

say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around  the extruders may

be the reason.



The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is

a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working!

Noel Loveys

AME Intern C RPP

Kitfox III-A C 

Aerocet 1100 floats



--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: exhaust in cabin

At 07:59 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Would the tube, as described, have extractor properties. Seems there wouldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length, thus not creating a venturi effect. 	


         The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two purposes: 1) to decrease noise; and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the cowl and encourage it's exhaust, thus increasing the delta-p across the cylinders and thereby increasing cooling, or reducing inlet size requirements and thereby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.)



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

After thinking about it C the large pipe opening is obstructed be the smaller exhaust pipe so the exhaust end of the large pipe would be significantly bigger than the opening. Would this create a venturi effect C act as an extractor and reduce back pressure enough to detrimentally affect cylinder loading? Anybody try it yet with the 582 C because the concept sounds good to me to reduce noise and possible exhaust gas entry to cabin.

  

 Pat Reilly 

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 



   

 Date: Wed C 29 Oct 2008 09:03:21 -0700

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

From: bnn(at)nethere.com

Subject: RE: Re: exhaust in cabin



At 07:59 AM 10/29/2008 C you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Would the tube C as described C have extractor properties. Seems there wouldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length C thus not creating a venturi effect. 	


        The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two purposes: 1) to decrease noise; and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the cowl and encourage it's exhaust C thus increasing the delta-p across the cylinders and thereby increasing cooling C or reducing inlet size requirements and thereby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.)



 Guy Buchanan

San Diego C CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]



 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: exhaust in cabin

my exaust leeks at the joint it was cut to fit the cowling (582)  I put  little trim piece under the cowling to help draw the  fumes out by low pressure vacuum  is works very well.    is there anyone there that can re cut and weld a new elbow for  me?? 



--- On Wed, 10/29/08, patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

[quote]From: patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com>

Subject: RE: Re: exhaust in cabin

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 9:55 PM



   #yiv1487376370 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1487376370 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}  After thinking about it, the large pipe opening is obstructed be the smaller exhaust pipe so the exhaust end of the large pipe would be significantly bigger than the opening. Would this create a venturi effect, act as an extractor and reduce back pressure enough to detrimentally affect cylinder loading? Anybody try it yet with the 582, because the concept sounds good to me to reduce noise and possible exhaust gas entry to cabin.

  

 Pat Reilly 

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL 



   

 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:03:21 -0700

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

From: bnn(at)nethere.com

Subject: RE: Re: exhaust in cabin



At 07:59 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Would the tube, as described, have extractor properties. Seems there wouldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length, thus not creating a venturi effect. 	


        The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two purposes: 1) to decrease noise; and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the cowl and encourage it's exhaust, thus increasing the delta-p across the cylinders and thereby increasing cooling, or reducing inlet size requirements and thereby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.)



 Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote] target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listttp://forums.matronics.com=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution[b]

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