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[Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

Rick,

It seems likely that changes to satisfy the lesser design loads included the center spar and caps, material and dimensions

nearest the wing attachment. That's a 25-percent reduction in carrying capacity. Likely, the differences were cost factors,

otherwise the changes would not have been made. If this is a pessimistic view so be it, but there shouldn't be a difference

in the way the 601XL is built in the US or overseas by contractor or one person. 



(The maximum take-off mass of this aircraft in the U.S. is 595 kg. 

To meet the criteria for European "Micro Light Airplane" (MLA) in the Czech Republic  a number of modifications where made to the model to the meet the requirement of a maximum take-off mass of 450 kg.)



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com





Rick Lindstrom wrote:

[quote] 



 If I didn't misread the translated accident report, it states that the accident aircraft "is a Czech Republic model."



 I'm wondering how the construction differed to allow adequate useful load with the 450 kg weight limitation, especially  in the area of the rear spar fuselage attachment.



 Rick



 --

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

You don't need to modify an aircraft at all to lower the maximum gross weight.  You just lower the max weight on the certificate. It's done all the time with LSA or with experimentals that the builder wants to fly using the LSA rules.  Do you think the all of these LSA's on the market just happen to have a max gross of exactly 1320 lbs, the maximum allowable? They lower it when they need to to meet the rules.  Don't assume that the lower gross weight airframe necessarily has less structure. (Although it could since it's all about G's.)  



From what I understand and have read is that the European XL uses the much lighter composite landing gear to reduce airframe weight to achieve a reasonable useful load under the lower gross weight limit.  Others from Europe have posted that the aircraft is identical other than that. (Britain has an elevator trim spring connected to the flaps as a required mod too)

Also, I believe, the Netherlands allows registration under the Microlight rules or the homebuilt rules. Not sure if they have the same weight limit.

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

 	  Quote: 	
		  It seems likely that changes to satisfy the lesser design loads included the center spar and caps, material and dimensions

nearest the wing attachment. 	




I am currently comparing both ZAC and CZAW plans of the XL: There is no change in dimensions and material for center spar and caps or wing sheet thickness on the european CZAW version of the XL. The design of the wing structure seems to be equal.



Martin

CH601XL CZAW QBK

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: XL wing fold in flight

Just because there aren't any differences in the plans doesn't mean that CZAW didn't build the planes differently. Remember that we are talking about a company that has pretty much gone under due to financial problems.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

tiethoff

Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

Dear Larry, you must be very clever to know all these things ! Kindest 

regards, Eric Tiethoff, Holland.



--------------------------------------------------

From: "LarryMcFarland" <larry(at)macsmachine.com>

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 AM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight



[quote] 

 <larry(at)macsmachine.com>



 Rick,

 It seems likely that changes to satisfy the lesser design loads included 

 the center spar and caps, material and dimensions

 nearest the wing attachment. That's a 25-percent reduction in carrying 

 capacity. Likely, the differences were cost factors,

 otherwise the changes would not have been made. If this is a pessimistic 

 view so be it, but there shouldn't be a difference

 in the way the 601XL is built in the US or overseas by contractor or one 

 person.

 (The maximum take-off mass of this aircraft in the U.S. is 595 kg. To meet 

 the criteria for European "Micro Light Airplane" (MLA) in the Czech 

 Republic  a number of modifications where made to the model to the meet 

 the requirement of a maximum take-off mass of 450 kg.)



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com





 Rick Lindstrom wrote:

> 

> <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

>

> If I didn't misread the translated accident report, it states that the 

> accident aircraft "is a Czech Republic model."

>

> I'm wondering how the construction differed to allow adequate useful load 

> with the 450 kg weight limitation, especially  in the area of the rear 

> spar fuselage attachment.

>

> Rick

>

> --

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

You’re exactly right Eric, placing any assumption before the 

investigation is done offers no one a clear view.

My apologies all for commenting to something that’s not yet been 

officially determined.  I'll try to refrain from

such folly in the future.  

Best regards,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Do not archive



Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <j.e.tiethoff(at)hccnet.nl>



 Dear Larry, you must be very clever to know all these things ! Kindest 

 regards, Eric Tiethoff, Holland.

willemdelange

Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Posts: 4

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

You are right that the lower MTOW is only because of the UL regulations in Europe.

The CZAW XL version has exactly the same wing and fuselage design and uses the same materials.  

Only the main landing gear has been changed to a lighter composite one and the wheels are lighter. This is because under the German UL rules the empty weight must be around 290 kg.



Other small changes can be found in finishing details of the canopy, instrument panel, center console and firewall forward parts.



I expect zenair will dive in to the problem because it also affects the 650



Willem,

The Netherlands

_________________
Willem de Lange
CH601XL owner

countzero

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

Willem, 



I don't think it can be "exactly" the same, the Euro version has a different wing rigging angle to the US XL. When this rigging angle was used for the new 650; zenithair modified the rear spar attachment to reinforce it.



So I assume the CZAW XL has a beefed up rear spar attach just like the 650 or maybe it doesn't need it with the lower gross weight.



Why was the rigging angle changed anyway?



Rob



 	  Quote: 	
		  The CZAW XL version has exactly the same wing and fuselage design

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: Re: XL wing fold in flight

In the video that was included in the most recent addition of the newsletter it is clearly stated that one of the reason for the 650 is to combine the attributes of the different versions of the 601XL specifically named are the AMD LSA, the US Kit and the European versions.



This tells me that there are differences and wing angle might not be the only one.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

pavel569

Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 77

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Re: [Probable Spam] RE: Re: XL wing fold in flight

I just wonder who can fly these (if there is no other modification) - max gross weight for UL in Europe=992lbs, empty weight (with Rotax 912S installed)=690lbs, 24gal=92l of fuel=144lbs. Then you'll get useful load of 158lbs. I could fly it only at the morning before the breakfast and after bathroom use. I don't know how much weight you can save on the gear but i doubt it will be more than 20-30lbs.

_________________
Pavel
CA
Zodiac 601XL
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings, fuselage, canopy done ...
"do not archive"

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