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tjmxer

Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? Like carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability.

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Sure. The best performance mod you can do to the 582 is to remove the

engine, and bolt a 912 up in its place.



Couldn't resist,

Bradley



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

tjmxer

Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Performance mods for 582.

Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better?

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

I've flown both and for climb performance it's reasonably close - the 582 is down on power but makes up for it in reduced weight. 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"tjmxer" <tjmxer(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

14/11/2008 11:24 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Performance mods for 582. 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "tjmxer" <tjmxer(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14021#214021

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 -

 

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

The two motors aren't even in the same class, reliability-wise.



The 582 is fine, IF you're willing to throw enough money at it often enough.



Interestingly enough, I had a recent miscommunication with a friend of mine.

He traded a boat for a LSA plane on the "other" coast. I piped up that I'd

be happy to fly it across for him. Well, when he first told me about it, he

said it had a 912. I thought, "Ok, no problem. I'd fly that engine across."



Well, come to find out, it had a 582 on it, with dubious time. There was no

way in H**L I was going to be caught in no-man's land with a dead

two-stroke. I didn't take the trip. Incidentally, that was supposed to be

this week.



Seems when I tell this story to people, they all agree that flying the 582

that far was not a smart decision. We all trust the 912 to an extent. I

don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing around,

but I wouldn't go anywhere with it.



Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do. 

My .02

Bradley



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Ill do the trip.....



)

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Bradley, you should preface your remarks with "In my opinion".  There are 

many 582 drivers on this list who would not agree with you.

Deke

 	  Quote: 	
		   The two motors aren't even in the same class, reliability-wise.



 The 582 is fine, IF you're willing to throw enough money at it often 

 enough.



 Interestingly enough, I had a recent miscommunication with a friend of 

 mine.

 He traded a boat for a LSA plane on the "other" coast. I piped up that I'd

 be happy to fly it across for him. Well, when he first told me about it, 

 he

 said it had a 912. I thought, "Ok, no problem. I'd fly that engine 

 across."



 Well, come to find out, it had a 582 on it, with dubious time. There was 

 no

 way in H**L I was going to be caught in no-man's land with a dead

 two-stroke. I didn't take the trip. Incidentally, that was supposed to be

 this week.



 Seems when I tell this story to people, they all agree that flying the 582

 that far was not a smart decision. We all trust the 912 to an extent. I

 don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing 

 around,

 but I wouldn't go anywhere with it.



 Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do.

 My .02

 Bradley

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

And so will others, I'm quite sure. But not me.



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

On an internet forum, it's all IMO.



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

YES YES YES IN THAT ORDER



CLINT



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Performance mods for 582.

 From: tjmxer(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Thu C 13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "tjmxer" <tjmxer(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021

 

&gt==================
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Bradley, I agree with all you have said, It's not even that  big of a debate, The two engines are in two different categories. Two stroke and  reliability doesn't belong in the same sentence.  Steve Bennett 4  1200  912 uls. 

  

  In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:10:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  YES YES    YES IN THAT ORDER



CLINT



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re:    Performance mods for 582.

 From: tjmxer(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Thu,    13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

    

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "tjmxer"    <tjmxer(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Come on. Is the 582 really that    bad? Is the 912 that much better?

 

 

 

 

    Read this topic online here:

 

    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021

    

==================

 

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  
	




://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

	
	




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  [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Clint and Bradley 

 

just a couple off silly questions -  

 

1 Have you both owned/operated 582 Rotax engines  

2 Do you have mechanical backgrounds 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way - I just think that it's important when giving advice that the recipient understands the qualifications behind the advice. 

as just owning something doesn't always make someone an authority. 

 

I still think the 582 is a great engine as is the 503 and the 912. Evidently Rotax agree as given the state of todays litigation attitude I'm sure they wouldn't continue selling a suspect product. I fly behind a Jabiru but I have owned and operated both the 503 and 582. 

 

Regards 

 

Gary

 Classic 4 jabiru2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

14/11/2008 12:56 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 Kitfox list <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: Re: Performance mods for 582. 

     

 

 

 

YES YES YES IN THAT ORDER

 

 CLINT

 

 > Subject: Re: Performance mods for 582.

 > From: tjmxer(at)hotmail.com

 > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "tjmxer" <tjmxer(at)hotmail.com>

 > 

 > Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better?

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Read this topic online here:

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14021#214021

 > 

 >==================

 > 

 > 

 >  



 

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 -

  

 [quote][b]

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Are there any statistic reports for 582 failures?

  

 Cecil

  

  

 On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Bradley Webb <bmwebb(at)cox.net (bmwebb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net (bmwebb(at)cox.net)>

 

Sure. The best performance mod you can do to the 582 is to remove the

engine, and bolt a 912 up in its place.



Couldn't resist,

Bradley



--

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Performance mods for 582.

Call me crazy, I fly a 2 stroke through some of the most remote, hazardous, inhospitable unforgiving terrain you can think of.  I dont think think twice about it.  I put close to 300 hrs on a 582 in the last 2 years.  Not one burble or complaint.  2 strokes get their bad reputation from guys who dont take the time to learn to "tune" or jet a 2 stroke or who dont take the time to learn what makes a 2 stoke quit.  Do you have to fly a 2 stroke differently than a 4 stroke or say a lycoming ? sure you do, but they are not dangerous or "unsafe".  I have had an 0320 quit on take off that gave me one option as I was hanging a pacer on the prop to clear trees.  That option was to hang on a go for a ride as I found myself missing a few things, such as RPM, airspeed and altitude all at the same time....it was a quick ride straight down with nothing I could do.  So far I have not had a 2 stroke let me down, but then again, I have ridden snow machines my entire life and know 2 strokes inside and out.



If you dont want a 582 feel free to ship it to me, I will pay the shipping and fly behind it all day long winter, summer, spring and fall.



to say that a 582 leaves nothing on the table in terms of more performance (without sacrificing reliability) is a very un-educated statement.



Just my .02

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

At 10:06 AM 11/13/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? 

Like carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability.


	


         OK. Well. It looks like someone will have to weigh in on 

behalf of the poor old 582. I've been running one for the past 312 

hours, with little problem. I've been on numerous cross country 

trips, including Oregon and Texas from SoCal. I personally think that 

given a good installation, regular maintenance, and a good EGT 

monitor it offers good service. I'll lay out some pro's and con's, 

but for a really good analysis get the CPS catalogue. In there is an 

excellent life-cycle cost breakdown.



Pro



1. It's cheap to buy. (About $7k these days.)

2. It has a very good power/weight ratio. It has very good thrust, 

especially with the higher ratio gearboxes.

3. It's quiet. (At least mine is.)

4. It's simple to operate. (Particularly with the RK400 clutch.) It's 

much like flying with a snowmobile. Starting and stopping are so 

trivial that if I'm asked to hold short, I shut down.

5. It's simple to maintain. You can even do the rebuilds yourself. 

Parts are readily available and not outrageously priced. (The engine 

is so light you can lift it off the engine mounts yourself.)

6. Mine seems to be at least as reliable as all the 912's at the 

field. The old days of ruined rotary shaft seals, melted pistons, 

stuck rings, broken cranks, and leaky seals seem to be in the past. 

One nice thing about having a motor that's been around for a while - 

all the bugs have been worked out.



Con



1. It's TBO is so low that its life-cycle cost exceeds that of the 

912. (300 hours.) (See the CPS catalogue for verification.)

2. You have to feed it oil, and not just any oil. This means that for 

long cross countries you have to carry a lot of oil with you, pretty 

seriously degrading the otherwise excellent power/weight ratio.

3. It uses more fuel that a four stroke would; about the same as a 912s.

4. The torque band is not that wide, so you must watch your RPM. Low 

RPM = low power.

5. You MUST watch your EGTs. It's still true that you can turn your 

2-stroke into a lump of slag if you're not careful. However the new 

instrumentation, and the HACman manual mixture controls make this 

much less likely.

6. It doesn't like high temperatures. With a maximum water temp of 

180F you have troubles when the air temp gets into the 100s.

7. It's actually a pretty big engine, by the time you stuff in the 

air cleaner and exhaust system.



         Now as to your question on mods. The sky is quite literally 

the limit, if you've got the cojones. These engines are radically 

modified in the snowmobile and watersports world and many of the mods 

could easily be adapted to the 582. I have only found one "aircraft" 

modification and that is the exhausts offered by 

http://www.paraflite.net/muffler.htm. These pipes prove to be quite 

simple: the more fuel you throw at the engine, and the narrower you 

make the power-band, (see Con #4, above,) the more horsepower you 

get. His 80hp comes at something like 10gph! The BSFC is almost 

identical to the stock engine.

         Two other non-performance related accessories are the HACman 

manual mixture control and RK400 clutch. The mixture control helps 

keep the EGTs in line, making jetting much less critical. The RK400 

clutch disengages the prop below 2600 rpm, making starting, stopping, 

and idling a breeze. (No more floaty landings, too.)



That's probably enough for now. There's still a few of us here 

happily running 582s.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

I know this guy, Marcelo Matocq who flew, back in 1998, a 582 powered, single seater Flighstar from Argentina to Oskosh.  He stayed at my home in Puerto Rico during his trip.  That historic trip appeared in Ultralight Flying magazine and EAA Experimeter.  He had no problem with the engine during the trip.  Seems to me like flying "out of the pattern" with a 582 is definitely an option.

  

 About modifying the 582 for performance, I absolutely agree with Bradley, that's the last thing I'd want to do.  You will sacrify reliability for performance.

  

 Jose

 Ex KF II/582 (never had a problem with the engine in 10 years)



 

   From: Bradley Webb bmwebb(at)cox.net (bmwebb(at)cox.net)

 I don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing around,

but I wouldn't go anywhere with it.



Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do. 

My .02

Bradley



--

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Performance mods for 582.

When is the last time you saw any engine go beyond its TBO without work done to it?  The 582 has a low TBO in part due to the anticipated low usage and associated problems resulting from that.  I know of a guy on the Avid group list who has over 600 hrs on each of his 582s.  They were both running fine when he tore them down for a look.  He did find some main bearing cage wear, and and now recommends that perhaps between 300 and 600 would be prudent.  Even Rotax admits that the 300hr TBO is conservative. (someone mentioned liability earlier).  How many certified engines go over 500 hrs with no cylinder work, etc?  Talk to the guys who fly their 582's, and know them.  For the performance/price/reliability factors  I plan to replace mine with another if/when that time comes.  IMO the problems with the 582 are mostly related to operator or lack of operation.  When I first got my airplane, engine replacement is what was on my mind for the 1st yr.  This was all due to my prejudiced thoughts of poor reliability.  Six years latter I have the same engine with very little work (no failures) done/needed.  (You realize that I've just doomed myself!) 



larry

Avid -582

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

I'll jump in for a little doom myself, and hopefully add to the list of real

facts rather than just opinions.



My KFII has been flying since 1991 with the same 582, with over 800

accumulated hours. I am the 5th owner and have flown it for nearly 100 hours

myself, with nearly 2 years of "down time" due to problems importing it from

the UK and the FAA. The 582 had a complete rebuild at a little under 600

hours and had 125 hours on it when I bought it. The logbooks do not have a

single instance of repair needed since new (other than maintenance items of

course), and the Brits are pretty strict about recording anything and

everything.



I have recently obtained my LSA Repairman's Certificate and between that new

knowledge and this list I am checking into everything I can on both the

engine and airframe, both for safety sake and with my new certificate

because I *can*, legally 



I have found/repaired very little other than brakes, door lifter tubes,

crazed Lexan windscreen, and some paintwork that the FAA insisted on; all

fixed with the amazing help of the Kitfoxers on this list. Nothing to do

with the 582 as yet other than concerns over ethanol in the mogas I use.



Not to be long-winded (too late!), my opinion and facts, my 2 pence - my 582

is reliable and efficient and if anything a bit over-powered for my very

light model II. But hey, you can't have too much money, or sex, or thrust

right?



Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

Gary and Leonard

   Thank you for the info on the 582's. I thought both you guys did a great job on the pro's and cons. I have a great interest in engines and had a two stroke in my 1962 SAAB a while back(a long while !) I loved that car and stupid me I traded it for a Renault Dauphine (which I soon got rid of ) I added a quart of oil at each gas fill to the SAAB.Super car and I sure would like to have another one

   I have a 912UL in my Fox 4 and it runs great and I think I have the minor bugs worked out but I still do not like flying over any water with it ! (ie: Mobile Bay last weekend) Would I fly it to my cabin in NC about 450 miles away -no. I guess it is just a gut feeling (after three engine failures in other aircraft-one going straight up at 200ft agl) Any way ,I digress.

  I have toyed with another project but have always disregarded the two strokes as unreliable. Now I am not so sure. Lockwood has a good two stroke school . Maybe I will go just to learn more about them. Thanks guys!

                         

                                                         Dick Maddux

                                                         Fox 4-1200

                                                         Pensacola,Fl 



Get movies delivered to your mailbox. One month free from blockbuster.com

  [quote][b]

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Performance mods for 582.

I have never owned a 582, but the group I flew with for five years had one 

582 in the flight of 6.  These flights were to the back country of Idaho 

with incursions into Montana to the east and Washingrton west and once into 

Canada - oops.  In other words there was nothing off limits.  The goal was 

to land at as many remote airstrips as possible over the years.



These are my observations:  Every fuel stop the cowl was off.  Presumably to 

check the oil level.  When possible, we flew along highways and the 582 guy 

didn't cut the corners as we sometimes did.  Often we were over extremely 

rugged terrain and the 912 guys could outclimb the 582 and we would often 

watch him catch the ridge lifts and guide him as he climbed through the 

canyons.  Coyote Creek, Moos Creek, Fish Lake, Smiley Creek (7100 ft.), 

Stanley, Dixie Town, Sulfur Creek, Elk River, Cavanaugh Bay, Sullivan Lake, 

Westfork, and ten more and this was the 2002 trip.  The 582 performed 

flawlessly.  In my opinion, it is a fine engine.  My understanding is that 

it takes a bit more care and attention, but if a person is willing to do 

that, I don't see a problem.



I have good friends who won't fly in light planes, a family member that 

won't fly in any airplane, Period - she won't cook with a microwave oven 

either. There is something scary about both, so someone who won't fly behind 

a 582 is not unusual in my experience.  To each his own, I guess.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Build

Currently focusing on the Left Wing, Rudder Gap Seal Cuffs and Landing Gear 

Fairing



---

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