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HDPE fuel tanks
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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

I there any pros or cons to having HDPE tanks made, instead of the AL ones.



Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

jgswartout(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Don't get me started.  I installed the aluminum tanks but they were a TIGHT fit.  In fact I had to put some tapered strips of aluminum on top of the rib flanges, about .050 thick at the critical point adjacent to the rear edge of the tanks, because the tanks were taller at the aft end than the depth of the ribs at that point.  If I'd wanted to devote more time to it I might have looked into plastic tanks like those beautiful tanks that come with RANS kits.  The other problems with aluminum is there is certain to be oil canning, which may cause the aluminum to fatigue over time.  If they ever leak, for any reason, you have to take the wing apart to get them out, a real shortcoming.  Maule's have a screw-on cover in the top wing skin for fuel tank access, and excellent idea.

   

 Just my humble $0.02.

  

 John

 On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:31 PM, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>

 

I there any pros or cons to having HDPE tanks made, instead of the AL ones?



Keivn



--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

 



Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14018#214018]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14018#214018[/url]



  [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

So make the ribs and measure them before I give the guy the dimensions? As I was going to have them made to print, just out of HDPE, well I was going to make them slightly larger along the wing cord, but just a little.

I like the screw on cover idea,anyone hear of this being done on a 701 or should I ask Zenith?

jgswartout(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Oh, I didn't know you were scratch-building.  I believe I would measure after the ribs are done.  I don't know how the screws are secured on the Maule--maybe they just use Tinnerman clips.

 Where can you have HDPE tanks made to order?

 On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:34 PM, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>

 

So make the ribs and measure them before I give the guy the dimensions? As I was going to have them made to print, just out of HDPE, well I was going to make them slightly larger along the wing cord, but just a little.

 I like the screw on cover idea,anyone hear of this being done on a 701 or should I ask Zenith?



--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

 



Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14046#214046]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14046#214046[/url]



  [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

I stumbled across a guy who does this as part of his regular business. I have not gotten a quot  yet, I'm still asking questions.  He claims they will be less expensive then the ones from Zenith? I don't want to outright post his contact info yet, because as of yet I have no proof of his product. Though he claims to have made them for Avids and such. We will see, I posted this to see if anyone with more experience in this type of thing had objections. It sounds as though he makes it out of sheet stock and thermal/hot air welds them together.  Says he can help with windshield too, though the one from Zenith is kinda nice.



Kevin

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Yes, I had the same problem.  I put 4 tanks in  mine, 2 on each wing.  I put a sheet of thin cork on the bottom of the wing  bay, then tried a tank for fit.  I got it in and the it wouldn't come  out!  No matter what I did!  I couldn't believe it, but four of my  fellow experienced EAA'rs couldn't budge the thing either!  Fortunately it  was in the proper place with all the fittings attatched so I just left it  there!   But I live in fear of it ever starting to leak!   I  think if that ever happens I'll just use the other tank in the wing and seal off  the leaking one.   

 I had put in two tanks per wing, but would not do  that again as I doubt I'd ever have to haul that much gas, but the other tank  could save me having to tear my hair out (and the wing apart) to replace a  leaking tank! 

 Do not archinve.

 [quote]   ---

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

I was going to put screw on covers but abandoned the idea when I saw I 

couldn't get the darned things out anyway, and I had a "spare" in each wing.

Do not archinve.

---

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Kevin, I'll be the first to admit that the Zenith welded tanks are not exactly cheap.  They are however very nicely welded and are extremely light.  I have mine installed in my scratch built wings and they fit perfectly as per the plans.



I am not familiar with HDPE as a material so I cannot comment as to it's suitability for use as a fuel tank.  Are there any issues realted to auto fuel campatability?  Also, one advantage to a metal fuel tank is the ability to ground it during fueling. I would also expect that the plastic material would be heavier than the 025 aluminum that the factory tanks are made from. As I mentioned above, the factory tanks are extremely light.



Not trying to throw water on your idea, just wanted to add a couple of things to think about.  I personally felt that the purchased fuel tanks were well worth what I paid for them.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



--- On Fri, 11/14/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

 Subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 7:27 AM

 

 "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

 

 I stumbled across a guy who does this as part of his

 regular business. I have not gotten a quot  yet, I'm

 still asking questions.  He claims they will be less

 expensive then the ones from Zenith? I don't want to

 outright post his contact info yet, because as of yet I have

 no proof of his product. Though he claims to have made them

 for Avids and such. We will see, I posted this to see if

 anyone with more experience in this type of thing had

 objections. It sounds as though he makes it out of sheet

 stock and thermal/hot air welds them together.  Says he can

 help with windshield too, though the one from Zenith is

 kinda nice.

 

 Kevin

kenryan(at)alaska.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

On a recent tour of the factory, I had the opportunity to pick up and hold a 

completed 701 wing tank. I was amazed at how light it is. It weighs almost 

nothing at all.

On 14 Nov 2008 at 7:11, MacDonald Doug wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Kevin, I'll be the first to admit that the Zenith welded tanks are not exactly cheap.  They are however very nicely welded and are extremely light.  I have mine installed in my scratch built wings and they fit perfectly as per the plans.

 I am not familiar with HDPE as a material so I cannot comment as to it's suitability for use as a fuel tank.  Are there any issues realted to auto fuel campatability?  Also, one advantage to a metal fuel tank is the ability to ground it during fueling. I would also expect that the plastic material would be heavier than the 025 aluminum that the factory tanks are made from. As I mentioned above, the factory tanks are extremely light.

 Not trying to throw water on your idea, just wanted to add a couple of things to think about.  I personally felt that the purchased fuel tanks were well worth what I paid for them.

 Doug MacDonald

 CH-701 Scratch Builder

 NW Ontario, Canada

 Do Not Archive

 --- On Fri, 11/14/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:

 > From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

 > Subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

 > To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 7:27 AM

 > 

 > "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

 > 

 > I stumbled across a guy who does this as part of his

 > regular business. I have not gotten a quot  yet, I'm

 > still asking questions.  He claims they will be less

 > expensive then the ones from Zenith? I don't want to

 > outright post his contact info yet, because as of yet I have

 > no proof of his product. Though he claims to have made them

 > for Avids and such. We will see, I posted this to see if

 > anyone with more experience in this type of thing had

 > objections. It sounds as though he makes it out of sheet

 > stock and thermal/hot air welds them together.  Says he can

 > help with windshield too, though the one from Zenith is

 > kinda nice.

 > 

 > Kevin

 >

jgswartout(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Hmm...  I don't know anything about that type of tank.  The ones from Rans appear to be injection molded translucent white plastic, kind of like a flat jerry can, but I don't know the type of plastic.  I haven't actually heard of any Zenith tanks failing, after 10 years of lurking around these lists, but I haven't done an archive search on the subject either.

 

 On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:27 AM, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>

 

I stumbled across a guy who does this as part of his regular business. I have not gotten a quot  yet, I'm still asking questions.  He claims they will be less expensive then the ones from Zenith? I don't want to outright post his contact info yet, because as of yet I have no proof of his product. Though he claims to have made them for Avids and such. We will see, I posted this to see if anyone with more experience in this type of thing had objections. It sounds as though he makes it out of sheet stock and thermal/hot air welds them together.  Says he can help with windshield too, though the one from Zenith is kinda nice.

 

Kevin



--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

 



Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14160#214160]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 14160#214160[/url]



  [quote][b]

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Yes, they are really lightweight, and despite the trouble of shoehoring them 

in, I haven't had a bit of trouble with them!  Be sure to get the whole wing 

bay ready in case you can't get them out like I did.  Your first fitting may 

be your last! Hah!

---

gburdett

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 13

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

Rotationally molded cross linked PE is widely used in fuel and other storage tanks. HD linear PE  that is fabbed from sheets and thermo -welded may be a little iffy.  You can get a lot of good info by simply checking out PE FuelTanks. A 1/4 inch wall manufactured tank might be available from regular sources of after market auto products. They do have a temperature limit which may not be a consideration for your use. I'm not sure the PE would be lighter than aluminum though.



DO NOT ARCHIVE

Last edited by gburdett on Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Two other options that might be useful pop up in my feeble mind.



For the scratch builders it would be a simple matter to trace out the main 

rib form block on a piece of paper and remove 1/8" (or whatever you feel 

comfortable with), make a couple of ribs for the ends and sheet over with 

025, sealing everything up with proseal.  My RV3 tanks have lasted 30 plus 

yrs and 2000 hrs with only one leak.



Another thought , I'm giving SERIOUS thought to this , is just making that 

wing bay wet by sealing up the ribs, spar, skins, I will put the opening on 

the bottom to keep the top lifting surface as clean as possible. Top and 

bottom skins will be 025 in this area.  Advantages are , lighter, cheaper, 

easier to build and will carry more fuel for the space used.  Haven't passed 

it by my aero engineer buddies yet but considering the fuel was there anyway 

I don't THINK there will be much to change,   BUT I'm wrong a lot so we'll 

see.



LO&SLO    John

---

Curt.Thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Attached is a picture of one of the two tanks I made.  I'm scratch building

and made form blocks a little shorter than the wing form blocks.  I put a

baffle in the middle to keep the full tank from bulging.  I was going to

make the tank deeper but decided I didn't want to mess with the CG.  The cap

is an ACS flush mount model.  There is an aluminum block in the corner where

the fuel outlet is and the drain plug is also in that area.  The vent line

will run up from the bottom in the corner where the cap is (I riveted a 1/4"

aluminum plate and threaded in for an 1/8" NPT fitting).  The fuel sender is

the normal one and I got it from an off-road-vehicle supply house.  I made a

new ring with threaded holes for the sender to bolt onto and Pro-Sealed it

to the inside of the tank; this was so I could have a larger area for the

sender gasket to seal.  There is also a fitting next to the sender for the

fuel return if I go that route (hot fuel system?).  Used "closed end"

rivets.  I pressure tested it for several days using the balloon method.

The tank is completely enclosed in the wing (not a wet tank system).  I put

cork strips between the tank and the skin.  I just finished riveting the

wings yesterday (anyone have a cure for hand cramping?).



BTW, I found out that you can clean up Proseal with lacquer thinner.



Curt

Redmond, WA, USA

Scratch building CH701

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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

Thanks for all the replies, I know it would be heavier then the AL ones, but I don't what to learn to weld  AL just for these tanks and I don't want to pay Zenith the asking price for them. I had not considered the grounding issue. What do they do in this case?



I do like the idea of two "Ribs" with pro-seal though, as one of the reasons for looking for something else, was to get about 24 gallons total. 30 years John, thats good enough for me!



Curt,

 I really like that tank, what are closed ended rivets? I assume they are not solid rivets, because you would not be able to set the second side. I also assume that you used pro-seal on the joints?



Thanks

Again

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

In plastic fuel cans  there is a brass pad on the bottom similar to a  rivet that is in contact with the fuel and terra firma when you are filling it.  (At least when the govt. buys them.) I would surmise that a similar installation  with bonding it to the airframe would work. Only surmising here, your mileage  may vary. I would also want to think that the ground to the airframe would be a  text book example. And not really knowing, maybe being enclosed in the wing  would diminish all of the difference in potential.

  

 Joe Motis

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 11/14/2008 2:47:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  kmccune(at)somtel.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I had    not considered the grounding issue. What do they do in this  case? 	




Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more!

  [quote][b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Greetings,



    Has anyone considered making the tanks out of stainless steel or some 

other material besides aluminum?  I have seen corrosion problems in boats 

with aluminum fuel tanks that make me seriously search for alternatives.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."



do not archive

---

Curt.Thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

I got the Closed End Blind Rivets from here:

http://www.hansonrivet.com/w22.htm



The part number is: PASD401H ($58.54 / 1000)



I also got some PASD403H ($13.22 / 100) to attach the flanges.



I think ACS sells something like this too.



Curt



--

infow(at)mts.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: HDPE fuel tanks

Hey Curt



Nice tank... good job, I'm scratch building mine also.  My tanks will look 

just like yours... except for the stub ends.  Its nice to see what mine 

will look like when I'm done.   I'm using 5052 H32 aluminum 0.032  for 

tanks... and will also have a baffle.  Both tanks will use one 4 x 6 sheet 

which is only about $44 at ACS.  Since I am making the tanks myself I 

decided to make them with the same profile as the wing.



Van's Aircraft... is a good place to get the various flanges(for rivets) 

and closed end rivets needed at really good prices.  I acquired  the 

drain(cav-110) flange - VA-112($7.80) with the rivet holes already drilled, 

and the closed end rivets AD-41H(1/16" grip) and AD-42H(1/8" grip) 

$0.06/per.  ACS have the same rivets for $0.18/per... which is nuts.  Van's 

flanges are already drilled for rivets so it makes it easier to work with, 

and are the only place where I could find them.  That also goes for the 

 finger screen flange. I used AN(-4)  bulkhead fittings for the vent lines 

and return lines. 



I was looking at the same ACS flush mounted caps... but not sure how they 

can be installed as of yet, have not had time to think about it.

The fuel sender  I have is the standard VDO...  they wanted $20 for the 

install ring and screws... so I made mine out of 1/8 aluminum, very easy to 

do.



Again nice tank!  If you more photos it would be nice to see the rest of 

the tank!



R.D.(Ron) Leclerc

CH701 Plans(Scrap)  Builder #7-6699

infow(at)mts.net

11/15/2008 10:45:59 PM

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: Re: HDPE fuel tanks

Well I think I've been convinced to build a rivet tank. I was not aware of the blind rivets and I had doubts about the longevity of proseal. So I have decided to build a riveted tank. It allows me to construct it and I can still add a couple of gallons to the total. 



I also contacted the guys who I was speaking about and got his permission to post his contact info. Again I have only traded emails buthe seems honest and straight up. Said he could help with the wind shield as well. Not sure if that means formed or what? Anyway, replace the (at) with an (at) and the email will work... "Keith Cardin"kcardin55(at)yahoo.com



Now I just have to build more flanging dies for the wing ribs, hope it doesn't take as long as it did the first time  ;^)



Thanks again



Kevin

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