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More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

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mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

I have a paper copy of a report from Denmark published in 1991 concerning 2-cycle aircraft engine reliability, including the 503, 532, and 582. The report was a summary of a study done by Denmark’s equivalent of our FAA and contained plain clear facts, not that usual whitewashed stuff we’re used to getting from our FAA. The study was initiated because of the high number of 2-cycle-related U/L accidents in Denmark. In the next few days, I’ll scan it. Anyone wishing a copy of this report can request an electronic copy by sending an email to flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com) .   

Mike Perkins  

      [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

I'll take a copy please Mike,  and thanks for doing this. Presumably there have been mods to the 582 since the  report was published and the models in question pre-dated 1991 by several years,  so we should take the results in light of any improvements(?) It should be an  interesting read regardless. 

  Bob Brennan - N717GB 

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Perkins,  Mike

Sent: 14 November 2008 10:25 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: More on 2-cyle  reliability - - Performance mods for 582

 

  

I have a paper copy  of a report from Denmark published in 1991 concerning  2-cycle aircraft engine reliability, including the 503, 532, and 582. The report  was a summary of a study done by Denmark’s equivalent of our FAA and  contained plain clear facts, not that usual whitewashed stuff we’re used to  getting from our FAA. The study was initiated because of the high number of  2-cycle-related U/L accidents in Denmark. In the next few days, I’ll  scan it. Anyone wishing a copy of this report can request an electronic copy by  sending an email to flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com) .   

Mike  Perkins

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

[b]

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

When you take a look at the report, you may be able to judge for yourself if Rotax addressed any of the issue.  A person might determine that many of the accidents and incidents could be traced to engine installation, engine maintenance, and engine/pilot procedures. In my mind, there is an interesting correlation between the high stoppage/accident rates and fact that Rotax manuals didn't specify engine use procedures, i.e. warm-up requirements, and they didn't specify explicit maintenance procedures, i.e. mandatory engine tear-down and inspection after an engine seizure for any reason. There was also a Finnish report in 1992 (of significantly less depth than the Danish report) and there was some reporting also done by Kitplanes in 1991-2. Notice that the two countries that produced reports have rather chilly climates throughout their entire countries, if that's any sort of a clue. As a technical counselor I've given presentations to EAA groups about Rotax engines. So of course I've drawn my own conclusions (based on the reported data and other sources), but I'd like to hear your conclusions after you read the report. - Mike

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

I would like to see the report also.



I would have to say that you are not entirely accurate on the manufacture not giving specific instructions on tear down or maintenance schedule.  If a person does not have the intellect to determine that the jug needs to be pulled when they squeak a piston, then they do not have the required decision making skill necessary to keep them alive in the cockpit.  I say those need to be weeded out and given a Darwin award...



The rotax installation, maintenance, operation and rebuild manuals give you all the information you need to keep it alive and happy.  Should you choose not to read the manuals, or perform required maintenance or checks then a Darwin award in probably in your near future.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

Leonard, 

It sounds like you are already be an expert in caring for a 2-cycle. But I imagine there may be a number of people who aren't. A pilot of a type-certificated aircraft can get engine help and advice at nearly any FBO. But the same isn't true of aircraft with 2-cycle engines. Please feel free to hand out Darwin awards if you wish. In the meantime, I'm interested in helping others who wish to learn more about their engines. 

Mike

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

The same can be said of the 912 and to some extent the Jabiru. While it 

would be silly to argue the succes of the 912, most FBO's do not regard it 

as a mainline aircraft engine and cannot offer any advice. The 582 has an 

enviable record of reliability when operated properly. It takes a little 

education, but then again so did flying.



I think those who sneer at two strokes need to remember that in the eyes of 

the general aviation community, Kitfoxes are mere toys, not aircraft. You 

feel that's not true or fair I expect. So perhaps for those flying 912's it 

might be better to accept that the 582 is just another engine and lay off.



do not archive

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm



Here you will find dang near everything you need to know about the rotax 2 strokes.



My point made above is that the information is out there, rotax has manuals for the motors that take you from installation, to running to maintenance, to re-building and all points in between.  This info is readily available for downloading or for a few bucks you can buy it.  For 500 bucks you can go to the repairmans course and get your hands dirty.  With all these resources available, if a person chooses to ignore them and strike out on his own without learning his motor inside and out, and how to keep it alive, then he or she runs a high risk of earning the not so coveted Darwin award.



You point out that the "typical" driver can get help at any FBO for a "normal" engine.  Your right, but if you are flying something unique like a 2 stoke, it is your duty to know all you can about your engine and not have to rely on others just as it is your duty to know about the airport you are planning to fly into.



Articles written in the late 80's or early 90's or data compiled from that time frame should not be taken as gospel.  Rotax knew they had issues hence the mod 99 582.  Allot of the 2 strokes have gotten a bad wrap from the early pioneers who would make a hardware store run, come home with conduit and bolt something resembling an ultralight together then go find a salvage snowmachine and bolt that POS engine in the nose and hope for the best.  Some were lucky some were not so lucky.



I have seen allot of guys pull partial power and start a long decent.  This is a sure fire way to get the EGTs to shoot through the roof and make slag out of your pistons.  This is also addressed in the Rotax manual.  I see guys asking about jetting... this is addressed in the manual as well.  When do you need to change jets, well look at the temp chart.  check outside temps, cross reference the chart and jet away.  Most places, you can get by with 2 sets of jets due to temps.



It is not my intention to belittle anyone as I am well aware not everyone grew up running 2 strokes, but I see alot of guys giving opinions, not facts about 2 strokes that are not warranted and often lead others to make bad choices.



Just for giggles, how many service bulletins have come out on the 912 from Rotax.  This highly coveted engine is not immune to issues that will also leave you in a tight spot so the direct answer is not to just say 2 strokes are the only engines prone to failure, there for, bolt a 4 stroke in the nose and you will never have to worry about a dead stick again.  I bet Lowell could shed some light on that one......

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

Seems to me that Mr. Perry is a true know-it-all.  But, then again he may be 

a newby to the 582/aircraft use time. I can say 100% that when I got my 582 

in August of 1990, it came with NO manuals, no warnings,   nada!  I had been 

flying for 32 years behind Continentals, Lycombings and Franklins without 

even a burp. So, you have branded me and all the very early Kitfox owners as 

deserving the Darwin Award. How generous of you, Mr. Perry. I have a strong 

feeling that you have passed out many of these awards in your lifetime. When 

one is 100% up to speed on aircraft 4 strokes and then purchases a 582, 

there are things to learn. Back in the 80's & early 90's we learned on our 

own. When I called Rotax in Canada about a problem I was having, I was told 

by them to find a repair guy somewhere in the states and ask them my 

questions.

I suggest that Mr. Perry learn some diplomacy if he wishes to earn any 

respect on this list.



DO NOT ARCHIVE        Sign me "offended"      Ron

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

Sorry to have offended you.  I don't pretend to "know it all" about 2 strokes, but I do know where to look for information.  I have seen countless times people replying to a question with "do a search on the list as this has been hashed over many times" ( and it pi$$es me off as someone was just asking a question).  I simply stated that all this information is out there and is readily available through a simple google search or by using any other search engine,  I even provided a link to help one out) and that if you choose not to learn what is available, then perhaps the light bulb is not burning at full rated intensity.



Rotax now has manuals out, and they can be downloaded from MANY online sites.  I myself should have been handed a darwin award many times, I am not exempt from this dubious catagory.



Again, sorry to have offended anyone without a sense of humor. It was not my intention.



I will keep my mouth shut and fingers off the key board on this subject from now on.

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

---

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

I love my 912. I changed the oil and antifreeze today. It took  me 45 minutes. When I change the oil I always crack the safety off the  gascolator and check for sed... 980 hrs on the hobbs... I had a flat tire last  week, so I bolted that up today also.  Hey guys, 90% of us fly our little  birds with rotax engines... Can't we all play on the same team???   

 Steve Bennett classic4/1200  NC    do  not archive

  

  In a message dated 11/14/2008 7:40:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca writes:

 [quote]-->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G"    <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

---

jtayloraaf(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

come on, guys; dont stop over a lil disagreement. i've read many posts from both of u & have found u to be very, experienced, knowledgeable, & passionate about aviating in these homebuilts. for me, who still has to make a decision on an engine for my avid+ (airdale), ur posts are invaluable. thanks for taking the time & effort to share with us. lookin forward to more from u all, john bowman, prairieville, la.  

   From: Dave G <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 6:38:39 PM

Subject: Re: Re: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G" <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca (occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca)>

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

And if you can't get along with fellow Rotax drivers, come on over to  

the Jabiru camp. We don't have the numbers...yet...but we've got all  

4-strokes, so no gripes in that department.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 587hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system

do not archive

On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I love my 912. I changed the oil and antifreeze today. It took me  

 45 minutes. When I change the oil I always crack the safety off the  

 gascolator and check for sed... 980 hrs on the hobbs... I had a  

 flat tire last week, so I bolted that up today also.  Hey guys, 90%  

 of us fly our little birds with rotax engines... Can't we all play  

 on the same team???

 Steve Bennett classic4/1200  NC    do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

Come on Lynn... I remember a forced landing and rebuild just a  couple months back so don't let us rotax guys aim our guns at you...     Steve Bennett

   Do not archive 

  

  In a message dated 11/14/2008 9:35:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson    <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>



And if you can't get along with fellow Rotax    drivers, come on over to  

the Jabiru camp. We don't have the    numbers...yet...but we've got all  

4-strokes, so no gripes in that    department.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru    2200, 587hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new    Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system

do not    archive

On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Sbennett3(at)aol.com    wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I love my 912. I changed the oil and antifreeze today. It    took me  

 45 minutes. When I change the oil I always crack the    safety off the  

 gascolator and check for sed... 980 hrs on the    hobbs... I had a  

 flat tire last week, so I bolted that up today    also.  Hey guys, 90%  

 of us fly our little birds with rotax    engines... Can't we all play  

 on the same team???

 Steve    Bennett classic4/1200  NC    do not  sp;             (And Get Some AWESOME FREE   find  you for                          -Matt Dralle,    List  he  es  y                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  =========================


	


	




Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more!

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: More on 2-cyle reliability - - Performance mods for 582

I'm not saying that didn't happen....just that honestly prevails (at  

least in my section of the camp), and it seems like when we are  

sticking up for "our brand" sometimes we overlook the failures and  

brag about the victories. Hell, for several weeks there, after the  

"engine out", you couldn't get me to mention my brand, let alone brag  

about it. But failures do happen, and if we're gonna fly, we'd better  

learn to live with that fact. Now if I have a second outage, I may  

have to rethink my choice, but it will never be a 2-stroke, and never  

be a high-revving engine. I just don't like the high revs.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 587hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system

do not archive

On Nov 14, 2008, at 9:51 PM, Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Come on Lynn... I remember a forced landing and rebuild just a  

 couple months back so don't let us rotax guys aim our guns at  

 you...    Steve Bennett

   Do not archive



 In a message dated 11/14/2008 9:35:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

 lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:

 



 And if you can't get along with fellow Rotax drivers, come on over to

 the Jabiru camp. We don't have the numbers...yet...but we've got all

 4-strokes, so no gripes in that department.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, 587hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition

 system

 do not archive

 On Nov 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Sbennett3(at)aol.com wrote:



 > I love my 912. I changed the oil and antifreeze today. It took me

 > 45 minutes. When I change the oil I always crack the safety off the

 > gascolator and check for sed... 980 hrs on the hobbs... I had a

 > flat tire last week, so I bolted that up today also.  Hey guys, 90%

 > of us fly our little birds with rotax engines... Can't we all play

 > on the same team???

 > Steve Bennett classic4/1200  NC    do not sp;          (And Get  

 Some AWESOME FREE find you for                     -Matt Dralle,  

 List he es y              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  

 =========================

 Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more!

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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