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Tight control stick

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bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi all,



We discussed it here before, but I have one of those kits that has a lot of tightness in the control stick when moving it left and right. I've heard various ideas to fix it and only saw some slight improvement with putting a lubricant at the base of the stick.



I was having the plane inspected by the EAA inspector last week and he thought we should try to get to the bottom of it. We loosened the assembly at the base of the stick but it didn't help much. 



Then we loosened the two bolts at the aft end of the control, back where the CS06 bush and CS08 crank bolt to the CS06 bearing. We saw immediate improvement even though we only loosened it a bit.



Obviously there's something binding here and I assume it is the way that the flox pad cured... something wasn't lined up right. 



So, for those of you that have had this problem before, what's the best way to go about fixing it. Keep in mind that my cockpit module is already installed since I bought the kit that way. I can barely get to the bolts much less make any drastic changes to the flox pad. Maybe insert some shims?  I'm just wondering if someone has already figured this one out and could save me some head scratching.



Thanks in advance,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi! Dan

Way back I had such a tightness in my control sticks when the control

assembly's were connected up but I found it before the cockpit Module

was installed. However I also had made provision for aerosol can

lubrication "later in life" with holes drilled into the tuffnol bearings

to receive the aerosol tube, in fact the rearmost bearings have

permanent lubrication tubes through the bases of the seat backs.  So I

injected " BRASSO" or copper polish solution and sat for about two hours

oscillating the control sticks back and forth. I then flushed out the

Brasso solution with harmless solvent/spirit until it ran clean, then

injected some light oil........problem solved. In my case it was useful

with the cockpit module in the "diving mode" since it allowed the

solvent to wash through any black abrasive polishings.

This at the time caused lots of amusement but it turned out  to be an

effective fix. In fact someone developed a mechanical or electric

motor/drill crank to drive the assembly......Have fun!

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa Trike Kit 337.



--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi Dan



We purchased A-265 with accelerated cockpit module. In 2004 it had loose

aileron movement. Then when it came time to bond in CPM, it began to get a

bit stiff. Ends up that it was assembled with some grease that expanded

the tufnel. Since CPM was out of plane, was able to beat out aft bushings

and used a flap wheel to enlarge. The front bushing was binding as well.

It was not only the shaft to bushing fit as far as up and down goes, but

front and back as well (thrust) was binding. We purchased some pig oil

(lard cutting fluid, handy stuff for hacksaw and drilling and other

cutting operations) and some abrasive compound from McMaster Carr

www.mcmaster.com



The compound is pretty amazing stuff, it begins as a cutting compound,

then turns to a polish, then it disappears. They say it is even safe to

use in an engine, it will not keep on cutting.



Problem with many lapping compounds is they will embed into something soft

and cut away forever.



Be prepared for a yellow slimy mess though!



Ron Parigoris

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: Tight control stick

Thanks guys for the replies. I guess what has me scratching my head is that if loosening the rear bushing helped, then it isn't necessarily swelling of the hole that's causing the problem. It seems like it would be either misalignment or a swelling in the thickness of the rear tufnol block. 



What do you think of putting shims in place, front and back, that would keep the bushing from making contact with the blocks altogether? There's just no way I can get in to the aft bushings with grinding compound. Shims also may be varied in thickness that correct any alignment problems. 



Thanks,

Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Tight control stick

Good Day Ron,

  

 I was wondering which abrasive compound you were referring to when you  describe it as one that cuts, then polishes, and disappears? I could not find  anything of this nature at McMaster Carr. It sounds too good to be true and  I think would be a God send in certain areas. So could you be more  specific?

  

 Thanks in advance.

  

 Mike Duane





You Rock! One month of free movies delivered by mail from blockbuster.com

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Tight control stick

On Sunday, November 16, 2008, at 06:55  AM, danbish wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What do you think of putting shims in place, front and back, that 

 would keep the bushing from making contact with the blocks altogether?


	


Dan...I'm unclear as to where or how you might place the shims you 

speak of on the assumption that your tufno bearing blocks are already 

securely bonded in place.



I do recall my experience when setting the tufnol blocks and fine 

tuning their alignment using the AN3 bolts...I found that the alignment 

was extremely sensitive to pressure exerted as the bolts were 

tightened.  The sensitivity was expressed by variance in the ease of 

side to side movement of the control sticks.



Fred

A194

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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi Mike



"I was wondering which abrasive compound you were referring to when you  

 	  Quote: 	
		   describe it as one that cuts, then polishes, and disappears? I could not find  

 anything of this nature at McMaster Carr. It sounds too good to be true and  I 

 think would be a God send in certain areas. So could you be more  specific?"


	


Here ya go:

Timesaving Lapping and Polishing Powders 

 

   These hardworking powders function first as an abrasive and then as a

polish. Plus, they're guaranteed not to embed in any metal surface.

Perfect for fitting and smoothing the bearing or contact surfaces of

rotating, oscillating, and sliding parts. 

   To use, mix with a thin machine oil (SAE 10 or 20) or heavy gear oil

(see page 2120). Powders do not contain harsh abrasives. 

   Soft-metal grade is for use on brass, bronze, aluminum, copper, tin,

and other soft metals. Hard-metal grade is for use on steel, cast iron,

stainless steel, and other hard metals. 

      Please specify grit: coarse (80 for soft metal and 40 for hard

metal), medium (120 for soft metal and 80 for hard metal), fine (220 for

soft and hard metal), or extra fine (320 for soft and hard metal).  

  1-lb. Cans  5-lb. Cans  

  Each  Each  

 

Soft-Metal Grade 4781A4 $25.24 

 4781A5 $111.43 

Hard-Metal Grade 4781A6 25.24 

 4781A7 111.43 

8-Can Trial Kit— One 3-oz. can of each soft-metal and hard-metal grit. 

4781A61 Per Kit  $73.10 



http://www.mcmaster.com/

Page 2635

I used the soft metal grade



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Here is non-staining plumbers lard oil:

Cutting and Threading Oil 

 

   Use at full strength in a variety of machining operations. 

   Mobil Mobilmet— 766 and Omega are good for pipe threading applications

and contain sulfur. Omicron, 404, and S122 reduce staining and are

chlorine free and sulfur free. S122 is water soluble.

   Heavy Duty— These sulfur-based oils are designed for use with ferrous

metals; they can stain nonferrous metals. Use alone or blended with other

oils. Good for pipe-threading applications. Light Colored— Allows you to

see your workpiece. Chlorine free. Dark Colored— High-lubricity oil allows

increased speeds and is especially effective for machining tough ferrous

metals. Contains chlorine. 

   Nonstaining— Also known as plumber's lard oil, it provides excellent

lubricity for fine surface finishes and extended tool life. Plus, it makes

a great pipe-threading lubricant. Chlorine free and sulfur free.  

    1 Gallon     

   5 Gallon     

 

      Each    

  Pkg.    Partial Full  

   

  Qty.    Pkg. Pkg. 

 Each  

 

Mobil Mobilmet  

766 6  2507K11  $22.35 $20.32 

 2507K12 $86.32 

 

Omega 6  2507K3    22.70 20.64 

 2507K4 76.02 

 

Omicron 6  2507K5    21.95 19.95 

 2507K6* 79.53 

 

S122 6  2507K7    21.73 19.59 

 2507K8 85.00 

 

Heavy Duty  

Light Colored 6  2307K26    16.30 14.66 

 2307K28 60.28 

 

Dark Colored 6  1011K11    16.48 14.83 

 1011K12 60.91 

 

Nonstaining  

Light Colored 6  1308K4    15.64 14.07 

 1308K2 58.34 

 

* 404. 

 

It's on page 2123



Mix up a bit with lap, works great. You could use other types of oil,

probably pneumatic air tool oil or sewing machine oil would be fine.



Having lard oil around is great. Use on drilling, tapping and sawing all

the time.



Good luck

Ron Parigoris

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi Mike



One more thing, I just checked container, used the Extra Fine.



http://www.mcmaster.com/

Page 2635

I used the soft metal grade

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi! Ron/Dan/All

I notice your recommended product is suitable for METALS and I am

concerned that you are using it one of the surfaces which is  Tufnol

which does tend to absorb your cutting /polishing fluids.( the "grit"

value is specified which is a word I'd be scared of on an aluminium

tube.) You must be sure to wash it out I was well satisfied that my

Brasso did wash out.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi Bob



The beauty of this lap is it does not use abrasives as you know them. It begins as a lap, shortly turns to a polish, then disappears. It disappears not because it is washed out, but breaks down quickly and disolves! the instructions enclosed in the container states it is even safe to use inside an internal combustion engine that is not disassembled and cleaned thorough. It guarentees that it will not continue to cut, it just breaks down quickly and stops cutting completly. That said you need to keep adding fresh lap if you want to continue cutting, you can easily tell when it is  just polishing. The downside is it makes a mess so you need to plan for such. 



We used the extra fine soft compound. Even if it did not remove any Tufnal at all, but lapped off a few thousands of aluminium, thats OK. I am confident that there will be no further cutting. 



I just don't know for sure if Chrome polish or Brasso leaves behind anything that would continue to cut?? 



Lard oil is pretty clear, just flush till things come clear, then we flushed with a little alcohol. Did shoot a tiny little bit of fast drying teflon lubricant after we were done, but not before letting Tufnal live in it for some time to make sure it would not swell again.



Ron P.

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi all,



Thanks for the input. I guess it just seems to me that if loosening the bolts frees up the controls, there must be some misalignment in the control tube causing it to bind. My theory is that the tufnot/tube assembly didn't set up correctly when the flox was applied and allowed to cure.



I had been thinking that if I were to put a shim in one side or the other, between the tufnol and the CS07 rear bush, that could re-align the torque tube assembly and allow me to retighten the nuts against the tufnol without recreating the binding. But now, looking at the diagram further, it looks like that wouldn't accomplish anything.  



I can use the polish on the front near the control stick, but maybe if I try real hard I can apply some on the rear bush and just work it back and forth and hope it improves. 



Ron, which of your recommended materials would be best to use for the CS07 aluminum (I assume) to CS06 tufnol?



Thanks all,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Tight control stick

Dan,

A small point to note.When one is flying the aircraft the amount of travel 

the control stick moves

is restricted by your legs either side of the control stick. Therefore the 

travel is relatively small (side to side).

I had a problem of the control binding slightly at either end of the travel. 

Not a problem as one

never gets to use the control that far. It is so sensitive only small 

movements of the aileron are

necessary. That binding has now gone at the aircraft settles in over 200 

hours flying.

For what is it worth.



Cheers,



Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch

NEW ZEALAND

PH 0064 3 3515166

MOB 021 0640221

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Tight control stick

Hi Dan



"Ron, which of your recommended materials would be best to use for the

CS07 aluminum (I assume) to CS06 tufnol?"



Here is the thread with McMaster info (including part number and type), it

was the Soft and Extra Fine I used. It takes a while, if the aft one is

hard to get at you may want some Fine.



http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?t=6032



Ron P.

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