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ByronMFox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Gentlemen:

 

  We flew a missing man yesterday for a friend. During the brief, there a was a discussion about how #3 should leave the formation.  Assume the flight is flying north to south. Should #3 pull up and west over #4, calling for a fingertip strong right? Or, should #3 pull up and west over #1 and #2, calling for a fingertip strong left? What say you?  Thanks, Blitz

**************

Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters,200812037/aol?redir=http://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

3 pulls up and climbs “until out of sight.” Then 3 turns in whatever direction is needed to solve the angles for a rejoin past the view of the bereaved on the ground. With  a YAK or CJ that may be hard to do. Me personally, I try to climb at least 1000-1500 ft on a line with the flight but at 50-60 degrees of pitch (ie climb straight ahead) until adequate altitude separation is obtained. Since the flight is flying level and you are climbing at an acute angle, you have easy nose tail separation with the flight.   

With adequate smash from the flight prior to the pull of 3, I can see 2000-2500 feet altitude change before starting the turn to set up a rejoin. That is with the YAK 50 now. You  are not going to see that with the CJ or a YAK-52.  

Doc  

                          

Missing   Man Formation

   Spads Fly Over College Station

   

   Pilots from Air Force Reserve Command’s 301st FW in Fort Worth flew a   missing-man formation last November over Kyle Field in College Station,   Texas, before the start of the Texas A&M vs. University of Texas football   game. The flyover followed an invocation and a period of silence to honor the   eleven students and one A&M graduate killed during the construction of   the annual Texas A&M bonfire. Four A&M graduates flew the mission in   F-16s from the wing’s 457th FS.                      

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rbwxx

Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Isle of Palms, SC

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

I think you are making it more complicated than it is.  When I flew as missing man in the military, we flew standard fingertip either right or left.  At the break, 3 went straight up, perhaps a 35 to 40 degree climb, and when well clear of the flight, exited 90 degrees away.  No attempt to turn until well clear -- perhaps 500 or 1000 feet --  vertically.  

Dick Watson, Isle of Palms (Charleston), SC, 843-886-4533      [quote][b]

_________________
Dick Watson

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

On Nov 16, 2008, at 11:59 PM, Yak-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

We flew a missing man yesterday for a friend. During the brief, there a was 



 

a discussion about how #3 should leave the formation.- Assume the flight i 

s  

flying north to south. Should #3 pull up and west over #4, calling for a  

fingertip strong right? Or, should #3 pull up and west over #1 and #2, calli 

ng for a  

fingertip strong left? What say you?- Thanks, Blitz 	




Blitz,



It's always such an honor to participate in the aviator's farewell.  The missing man departs into the setting sun, which you got.  I don't know if there is a protocol for which side of the formation it happens from.  Thinking aloud here...from a shear safety standpoint it doesn't seem it would matter.  If you go towrads #1&2  you are behind 1 and abeam 2 to start with, which means you'll never fly over an aircraft in the process.  Which is the same for 4, because your pull will put you well clear both vertically and laterally as a result of the angles.  The important thing is that #3 pull from your cruise speed (maybe 130 KIAS in the CJ) to Vy and then start the turn and hold Vy.  This looks the best, in my opinion.   Also, go give #3 a little added smash for the pull, lead can head a little down hill on the run in to give you a little extra E for the pull.  It's a subtlety the observers won't notice.



I'm sure others have other ideas, but in all the MM formations I've done, this seems to work best.



Regards,



Barry



R



 [quote][b]

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

byronmfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the subject:

Blitz,



I looked into it at work today and this is what I found.  I know you guys fly using a lot of Navy formation stuff, so it may be a little different.  I'm afraid I can only speak from an Air Force reg perspective.  The standard Air Force 4-ship formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the right.  Therefore for in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 will split west over #4.  The only other thing I could find was that missing man formations are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremony permitting) with #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and #2.



It must have been a moving experience to be a part of.  I wish I could have seen you guys executing it.  Hope all is well!



Brent



--



Byron M. FoxTDA Investment Group

1214 Donnelly Avenue

Burlingame, CA 94010

650-343-6333

650-343-0858 Fax



  [quote][b]

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Man Formation

Gentlemen, 



I did a missing man this weekend twice where the EAA B-17 was on display in Colorado for the veterans day event.  I did a moderate pull from three and a slow turn away from the formation and left the smoke on until I had gained 1500 and was a mile away. Bobby with the EAA's B-17 said there was not a dry eye in the crowd ( I'm not taking the credit ). Seems to me it didn't matter which way or how, just the fact that someone cared enough to do it. 



I Credit my fellow Colorado Yak Pack flier's for a job well done.

Dale

KingCJ6(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Yesterday, I talked to Maj. Tim Decker, former F-117 pilot and a current  U-2 Squad Commander at Beale AFB.  His input: 

  

 "After a healthy vertical pull up, #3 turns towards the briefed join-up  area, rather that away because - 

 1) this expedites the join-up and 

 2) there is less chance of loosing visual on the main flight, thus it's  safer"

  

 Dave

  

  

  In a message dated 11/17/2008 12:19:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  byronmfox(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Here's what a USAF active-duty F-15E pilot has to say on the    subject:

   



   Blitz,



I looked into it at work    today and this is what I found.  I know you guys fly using a lot of Navy    formation stuff, so it may be a little different.  I'm afraid I can only    speak from an Air Force reg perspective.  The standard Air Force 4-ship    formation has #2 on the left with #3 and #4 on the right.  Therefore for    in the Air Force missing man North to South run, #3 will split west over    #4.  The only other thing I could find was that missing man formations    are flown South to North if able (Weather, terrain, ceremony permitting) with    #3 executing either the vertical pull or west-ward break over #1 and    #2.



It must have been a moving experience to be a part of.  I wish    I could have seen you guys executing it.  Hope all is    well!



Brent



      --



Byron M. Fox    TDA Investment Group

   1214 Donnelly Avenue

   Burlingame, CA 94010

   650-343-6333

   650-343-0858 Fax

   



   



   

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

	
	




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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

I thought we all agreed to drop this subject? 



Mark Bitterlich 

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Dale, 



Various members of the YAK list have made formal complaints to the List

Owner Matt Dralle about the whole subject of missing man formations

being discussed on the YAK List.  That said, can you please take the

discussion of this topic elsewhere please?  



Thank you for your consideration. 



Mark Bitterlich

  

--

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Missing Man Formation

Interesting Mark.



I don't see how this is related to rock and roll , who the hell is running for president, my mother or what beer I drink. It looked to me like formation flying and I was in a Yak. I take exception to your statement as not being a related subject. Have a nice Veterans Day!!   By the way I noticed you are a guest and not a member?  Is there a reason I should be a guest and not a member?  



By the way I'm through posting on this site, you like it you police it.



Dale

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Good for you Floyd. Mark send a list of the complainers so that we may

apologize. This was yak stuff - FUN STUFF- YOU REMEMBER flying??? That Is on

subject.



--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

We are discussing technique, not if it is appropriate. Complainers need a

life.



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

I never said any such thing.  



End of discussion. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Bill, let's you and I meet someplace.  I live in New Bern North

Carolina.  Is it possible that you and I could fly to a common location

and have lunch? 



Mark

   



 



--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Dale,



I've read his stuff. My time in the military doesn't count unless I here

bullets zipping by my ears. 



I still will talk about flying, I still will tell and listen to anything

about flying and Yaks, and I would still fly when and where I choose. Mark

gave me that freedom. I don't lose sleep over any of this.



Bill



Have you flown the TW yet?



--

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Please stop. It has been enough.



Jan



--

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Missing Man Formation

BUT...Do you put MMO in the oil tank before or after you fly the MM formation?  And, oh, do you wear flight suits when flying the MM or not?

KingCJ6(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Missing Man Formation

OK, suppose I just filled up with MoGas, and even though I wiped my  MMO-soaked hand on my flight suit during TO roll as lead, the throttle  momentarily slipped out of my hand, causing -2 to lift off slightly before me  during a Missing Man flight for a deceased non-military pilot. Should I have  been wearing a helmet?

  

 Dave

  

  In a message dated 11/21/2008 5:54:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  capav8r(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Winkelmann"    <capav8r(at)gmail.com>



BUT...Do you put MMO in the oil tank before    or after you fly the MM formation?  And, oh, do you wear flight suits    when flying the MM or not? [Rolling Eyes]





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215618#215618

	




One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today![/b]

  [quote][b]

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Missing Man Formation

 	  Quote: 	
		  OK, suppose I just filled up with MoGas, and even though I wiped my  MMO-soaked hand on my flight suit during TO roll as lead, the throttle  momentarily slipped out of my hand, causing -2 to lift off slightly before me  during a Missing Man flight for a deceased non-military pilot. Should I have  been wearing a helmet?

  

 Dave 	




Yes, if you're flying a CJ, not required if in a Yak!



LOL, Dave, thanks!



Cheers,

Steve

yakpilot(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Missing Man Formation

Would somebody give me the link to the photo so I  can see what the commotion is about?

  

 Alan

 yakpilot(at)bellsouth.net

   [quote][b]

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