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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Nobody seems to have mentioned the Kitfox that crash-landed in  

Boulder, Colorado. I got the alert from Google a couple of days ago.  

They said it was an engine problem that caused the pilot to put it  

down...he wasn't hurt. Anybody near there know what kind of engine  

problem, and what kind of engine?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

"The propeller went in reverse, and he realized he couldn't stop the plane

before it went beyond the boundaries of the airport," Hauser said.



From

http://www.coloradodaily.com/news/2008/nov/24/plane-crash-reported-boulder-m

unicipal-airport/ 



Propeller went in reverse?? Maybe he used a car engine with 4-on-the-floor

and shifted wrong... [kidding of course]



Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 

--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Well, being that nobody was hurt, and we can have a little fun (with  

this poor guy's mishap), I've already come to the conclusion that it  

must've been a Rotax because none of you guys are mentioning it. : )  

Hell, if it had been a "J" engine, you guys would be all over it. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 26, 2008, at 11:29 AM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 "The propeller went in reverse, and he realized he couldn't stop  

 the plane

 before it went beyond the boundaries of the airport," Hauser said.



 From

 http://www.coloradodaily.com/news/2008/nov/24/plane-crash-reported- 

 boulder-m

 unicipal-airport/



 Propeller went in reverse?? Maybe he used a car engine with 4-on- 

 the-floor

 and shifted wrong... [kidding of course]



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Not that I have nothing better to do... But I like doing research in cases

like this. The best I can tell is that the pilot is from Guatamala, had just

bought the airplane and was flying it for the first time to another airport

where he was going to put it on a trailer and take it home. So no info as to

the registered owner or N number. There was only one Classic IV Kitfox

registered in that county and it is listed as Engine Type: reciprocating,

Make and Model: Rotax(all), whatever that means! Also apparently the pilot

left the scene very quickly with no comment, refusing treatment.



Again, no offense to the poor guy and his mishap, but I'm guessing it had

nothing to do with the airplane or the engine. Just my opinion[smirk] on a

day when I should be doing something more productive...[smirk again]



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

NSI with a CAP 140



--

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

..or a soobie  



D



do not archive



---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Bob Brennan [matronics(at)bob.brennan.name]

 Propeller went in reverse??


	


When I got my heart attack in July and lost my pilot license, I was preparing my big annual trip to Belgium planned for the 6th of Sept. Then a Finnish friend told me he would come and pick me up with his homebuilt Europa plane. As September can close and I didn't hear from him; knowing  he was already on an European tour, the news came in:

His propeller went into reverse as he took off from an Austrian airfield and crashed at the end of the runway. His plane bursted in flames and he made it but ... suffered severe third degree burns and lost an eye.

So yes, apparently those things can happen with in-flight pitch adjustable props.

.. and no, Lynn, it was surely not a Jabiru engine; we can't have variable pitch props.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 - flying sometimes as a PAX



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

CAP stands for "Cockpit Adjustable Propeller" for those like me who have to

look it up.



Sounds like the first-time pilot may have adjusted the prop too flat for

takeoff? Can those props be feathered?



Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Good thing us "minorities" have thick skins, eh, D? : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 26, 2008, at 2:25 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 ...or a soobie  



 D



 do not archive



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Of all the repots that were posted in all the newspapers, there was  

no mention of engines (other than "it failed") or of propellors...in- 

flight adjustable or otherwise. Sounds like JD probably has the best  

answer, as I would bet that the press has kept his phone busy trying  

to find out all the "dirty laundry" on this incident, although all  

the reports that Google came up with sound like a rehash of the same  

old, same old....



Speaking of adjustable propellors....maybe the FAA made a good  

decision barring us Sport Pilots from adjusting props, at least while  

in the air, or even allowing us to have "automatic shift" props.   I  

can just hear their arguments: "Give 'em a twisted piece of wood, and  

that's all they get! Those low-hour trainees will have all they can  

do to wiggle the stick."



Wait a minute, Michel.....Sensenich now makes a ground-adjustable  

prop for the Jabiru AND the Rotax. It's been out for a couple of  

years now, so Sensenich tells me, although their website says (as of  

August 2008) that this new prop is "in flight testing."  I pointed  

this out to a guy at their booth at Oshkosh, and he was slightly  

chagrined at this news....he's in charge of the website. It  

apparently uses composite blades that are centrifugally cast, if I  

recall the blurb correctly.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Nov 26, 2008, at 3:01 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Bob Brennan [matronics(at)bob.brennan.name]

> Propeller went in reverse??



 When I got my heart attack in July and lost my pilot license, I was  

 preparing my big annual trip to Belgium planned for the 6th of  

 Sept. Then a Finnish friend told me he would come and pick me up  

 with his homebuilt Europa plane. As September can close and I  

 didn't hear from him; knowing  he was already on an European tour,  

 the news came in:

 His propeller went into reverse as he took off from an Austrian  

 airfield and crashed at the end of the runway. His plane bursted in  

 flames and he made it but ... suffered severe third degree burns  

 and lost an eye.

 So yes, apparently those things can happen with in-flight pitch  

 adjustable props.

 ... and no, Lynn, it was surely not a Jabiru engine; we can't have  

 variable pitch props.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 - flying sometimes as a PAX



 Do not archive



 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">



 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Maybe I should elaborate a little.. 



Talked with the FAA yesterday.. It was a NSI with a CAP 140 IFA (In Flight

Adjustable) Prop.



--

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

In-Flight adjustable props are really no big deal, but it is one more 

control function that is added to the normal mix of things that have to paid 

attention to during critical phases of flight, especially during takeoff. 

Take an inexperienced pilot, in an unfamiliar airplane, at an unfamiliar 

airport, possibly having never used a cockpit adj prop before, you have a 

recipe for a situation that can quickly get out of control.   But, not 

having all the facts in this case, we're just speculating and arm chair 

quarter backing.  The fortunate thing here is that he walked away from it 

and there was no property or people damage, nor much left of that airplane!

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop  

during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then  

change it to cruise when you get there....no?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis



On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:04 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 In-Flight adjustable props are really no big deal, but it is one  

 more control function that is added to the normal mix of things  

 that have to paid attention to during critical phases of flight,  

 especially during takeoff. Take an inexperienced pilot, in an  

 unfamiliar airplane, at an unfamiliar airport, possibly having  

 never used a cockpit adj prop before, you have a recipe for a  

 situation that can quickly get out of control.   But, not having  

 all the facts in this case, we're just speculating and arm chair  

 quarter backing.  The fortunate thing here is that he walked away  

 from it and there was no property or people damage, nor much left  

 of that airplane!

 Deke Morisse

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Lynn sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop 

during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then 

change it to cruise when you get there....no?


	


I had a Rotax 912S with an Ivo medium in-flight adjustable prop on my 

model IV, Lynn.  With no prop pitch indication you can't precisely 

set the pitch for best takeoff power beforehand.  If I ran it all the 

way flat then added full power, the RPM would go too high, so I knew 

I had to pull the pitch in a little bit from that point.  After a 

while you could get pretty close with cranking it all the way flat 

then pressing the switch the other way and counting, "One thousand 

one, one thousand two..."



That said, it wasn't unusual for me to be rolling (even though the 

ground roll was very short) and tapping the switch up or down a 

little to get takeoff RPM after fully opening the throttle.  As your 

speed picks up the RPM tends to go up a bit also, so I'd often tap it 

back down to redline after establishing my initial climb.



The Ivo mechanism has stops that limit both the fine and coarse pitch 

settings so it can't reverse or feather.  Even if you had it all the 

way flat or all the way coarse, with full throttle you'd still have a 

significant amount of thrust happening.  The NSI CAP hub had an 

option for full reversing intended to simplify float-plane 

maneuvering on the water.  It had several mechanical and electrical 

interlocks to prevent inadvertent reversing in flight but I suppose 

if you were having a really, really bad day...



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

On Wed, November 26, 2008 4:16 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop

 during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then

 change it to cruise when you get there....no?


	


These props aren't constant speed props that you probably used in your certified

experience. So, you don't control them the same way.



With a cockpit adjustable (not-constant speed) prop, at run-up, you set the prop to

maximum horsepower rpm, WOT. As soon as you begin to roll, you're going to either have

to increase the pitch or pull back the power to control the rpm. Best practice is

normally to keep adding pitch as required until until you reach best angle or best

rate speed. When you reach traffic pattern altitude then you reduce power as you would

in a fixed pitch propeller configuration. At this point you might need to adjust the

pitch again for best economy.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Thanks, Mike and Paul-

The closest I ever got to having to deal with a prop was 3+ hours one  

day in a 180 Cessna, during my catch-as-catch-can flight  

training....good thing too, as what you both describe sounds like it  

*could* ruin your day, and did for the Colorado guy, if that's what  

really happened. Glad I don't have to do anything like adjusting a  

prop on takeoff. Maybe the FAA/EAA were right in excluding this  

operation for Sport Pilots, time will tell.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

On Nov 26, 2008, at 8:33 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 These props aren't constant speed props that you probably used in  

 your certified

 experience. So, you don't control them the same way.

On Nov 26, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 Lynn sez:

> I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop  

> during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then  

> change it to cruise when you get there....no?

 I had a Rotax 912S with an Ivo medium in-flight adjustable prop on  

 my model IV, Lynn.  With no prop pitch indication you can't  

 precisely set the pitch for best takeoff power beforehand.  If I  

 ran it all the way flat then added full power, the RPM would go too  

 high, so I knew I had to pull the pitch in a little bit from that  

 point.  After a while you could get pretty close with cranking it  

 all the way flat then pressing the switch the other way and  

 counting, "One thousand one, one thousand two..."

 That said, it wasn't unusual for me to be rolling (even though the  

 ground roll was very short) and tapping the switch up or down a  

 little to get takeoff RPM after fully opening the throttle.  As  

 your speed picks up the RPM tends to go up a bit also, so I'd often  

 tap it back down to redline after establishing my initial climb.

 The Ivo mechanism has stops that limit both the fine and coarse  

 pitch settings so it can't reverse or feather.  Even if you had it  

 all the way flat or all the way coarse, with full throttle you'd  

 still have a significant amount of thrust happening.  The NSI CAP  

 hub had an option for full reversing intended to simplify float- 

 plane maneuvering on the water.  It had several mechanical and  

 electrical interlocks to prevent inadvertent reversing in flight  

 but I suppose if you were having a really, really bad day...

 Mike G.

 N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

You are right Lynn, 

On my IFA IVO prop I would actually trim for take off when on final approach. Then it was always set for the next take off and also prepared should you have to make a go-around. On take off I would establish the climb  out and then trim for cruise. 

With my 70" two bladed medium prop and a 582 to this basically meant trim for 6500 on take off and approach and then trim for about 6100 WOT for cruise. 

When you become more familiar with it there are plenty of other smaller changes that you can make during the flight envelope ie) Trim for improved EGT / Trim for improved coolant temps / trim for higher rpm take offs with floats etc. 

Gary

 Gary Algate

 Kitfox Classic / Jab 2200

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

27/11/2008 10:53 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop  

 during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then  

 change it to cruise when you get there....no?

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 On Nov 26, 2008, at 5:04 PM, fox5flyer wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer"  

 > <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 >

 > In-Flight adjustable props are really no big deal, but it is one  

 > more control function that is added to the normal mix of things  

 > that have to paid attention to during critical phases of flight,  

 > especially during takeoff. Take an inexperienced pilot, in an  

 > unfamiliar airplane, at an unfamiliar airport, possibly having  

 > never used a cockpit adj prop before, you have a recipe for a  

 > situation that can quickly get out of control.   But, not having  

 > all the facts in this case, we're just speculating and arm chair  

 > quarter backing.  The fortunate thing here is that he walked away  

 > from it and there was no property or people damage, nor much left  

 > of that airplane!

 > Deke Morisse

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 -

 [quote][b]

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

On Wed, November 26, 2008 8:01 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks, Mike and Paul-



 The closest I ever got to having to deal with a prop was 3+ hours one

 day in a 180 Cessna, during my catch-as-catch-can flight

 training....good thing too, as what you both describe sounds like it

 *could* ruin your day, and did for the Colorado guy, if that's what

 really happened. Glad I don't have to do anything like adjusting a

 prop on takeoff. Maybe the FAA/EAA were right in excluding this

 operation for Sport Pilots, time will tell.


	


Most of my flying time has been in aircraft with fold up feet and a constant speed

prop so I feel really short changed with a cockpit adjustable.



There is no danger of putting in reverse Beta in a constant speed prop. You just set

it to the rpm you want. On take-off you set it at 2700 and the engine won't go any

faster than that. And it'll only go slower if you've set part throttle. The only

danger you have is lugging the engine if you pull the prop back before you reduce

power or the converse, say you're cruising at 2250 rpm at say 23" Hg manifold pressure

then you need to advance the rpm before you add power. The rule to remember is the

prop control sets rpm and the throttle sets power with a constant speed prop setup.



A constant speed prop is ideal but the governor mechanism is more complex than simple

cockpit adjustable and hence more expensive.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 Wait a minute, Michel.....Sensenich now makes a ground-adjustable  

 prop for the Jabiru AND the Rotax.


	


Yes Lynn, but I still prefer my Jabiru propeller, made in one piece from the finest Australian wood, hand-carved by a master Aboriginal boomerang craftsman. ... what? They are made out of wooden banana crates, by Chinese children in a sweatshop of Kuala Lumpur? ... Man! No wonder now why mine attracts so many insects! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 --- flying as PAX



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Good question, Lynn.  You're correct, but unless the prop has a pitch 

indicator--most NSI units don't-- one sets it by a simple process prior to 

takeoff, but sometimes it needs a bit of a tweak during the takeoff process 

to get the correct takeoff rpm.  Not a big deal at all, but for someone who 

hadn't used one previously, it could be.  Again, it's just speculation.  I 

have no idea what actually happened.  As for the prop going into reverse, I 

doubt it.  That prop has built in interlocks so that it cannot go into beta 

above a certain rpm.  I think it's about 1200 prop rpm to be exact, but I'd 

have to check.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

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