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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
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 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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All,
With all the talk about cockpit adjustable propellers I would be interested
in hearing how those of you who are flying behind them in your Kitfox have
them set up, how you fly them and what your reasoning is behind your
decisions. Also what experiences / mishaps you have encountered. The reason
I ask is that I have purchased one from John McBean for my 5 and will one
day be learning to use it.
PS. After reading the info from the last posts about prop adjustments and
the braking effect, is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop set
for max climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff and then
attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way, possibly flattening it
out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air which might explain the
pancake landing observed, and at that point did not have enough time or
altitude to recover? Yes, TOTAL speculation.
Thanks,
Lloyd C
Model 5 912 IVO IFA
Michigan
Checked by AVG.
9:02 AM
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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Lloyd sez:
| Quote: | ...is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop set for max
climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff and then
attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way, possibly
flattening it out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air
which might explain the pancake landing observed, and at that point
did not have enough time or altitude to recover?
|
I can speak only for the Ivo medium prop on my Model IV. As long as
the engine is developing takeoff power you cannot flatten the pitch
enough to produce engine braking (unless, perhaps, you were pointed
nearly straight down). Braking happens when you have the prop in a
flat pitch and pull the throttle back, and can be quite significant.
In the scenario you describe, I'd expect that flattening the prop
further would just cause the RPM to go up, possibly beyond red line,
which would not reduce thrust (unless the engine suddenly became very
unhappy with you).
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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I will put my little information in here. I first flew behind a IVO in March of 1994. Mark from Thunder Gull Fame was at Oceano airport (Pismo Beach C Ca) amd had an IVO on his 2 place ultra light trainer. Got about 20 minutes of dual and played with prop. During those years little was know and got some bad information from a friend in Watsonville C later corrected. I have been flying behind an IVO since my first flight in 1997 C 1400 hours. Have had several changes over the years for different reasons but I love the prop. It was neat when I joined the Desert Fox Squadron in 1998 as most of them were using IVO props. At the present time I have a 72 inch Zero Plus UL on my 912ULS. Have the newer prop pitch assembly C sold the old one one Ebay and it was still working great. Thats the sales pitch.
I fly out of Half Moon Bay C Calif and the air here is thick. Air temp is usually around 55 to 59 degress F. I adjust prop pitch on Take off to 4000 RPM's runup at 23 inches MP and that will yield about 5500 on Take Off. That setting works very well up to about 3000 feet at which the air is thinner and enangine RPM.s start to increase. A couple taps on pitch control and whalla engine speed drops. I fly with 5000 RPM's 24 inches MP below 5000 feet C above that use about 5200 to 5300 with throttle pulled back about and inch. Gives me TAS about 100 Kts with a fuel burn of 4.3 GPH.
The weight of the prop is under 10 lbs and I love it. Have has some issues in past but all problems were resolved C don't want to get into that now C would be willing to talk if you call me. (650) 712-1802 anytime.
One note C on preflight check prop position by running pitch C you can hear the motor unload near zero pitch change. Nice thing about the prop C no matter what happens with motor or whatever C it will bring you home.
Clint Bazzill
N9666T 1400 Hours Model IV with a ton of mods. Non I would remove
> From: 7suds(at)Chartermi.net
| Quote: | To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado
Date: Thu C 27 Nov 2008 11:12:20 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds(at)chartermi.net>
All C
With all the talk about cockpit adjustable propellers I would be interested
in hearing how those of you who are flying behind them in your Kitfox have
them set up C how you fly them and what your reasoning is behind your
decisions. Also what experiences / mishaps you have encountered. The reason
I ask is that I have purchased one from John McBean for my 5 and will one
day be learning to use it.
PS. After reading the info from the last posts about prop adjustments and
the braking effect C is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop set
for max climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff and then
attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way C possibly flattening it
out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air which might explain the
pancake landing observed C and at that point did not have enough time or
altitude to recover? Yes C TOTAL speculation.
Thanks C
Lloyd C
Model 5 912 IVO IFA
Michigan
Checked by AVG.
9:02 AM
=
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[quote][b]
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iworonko(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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I bought a constant speed electronic gizmo for my IFA IVO. Haven't installed it yet. Is anyone using one of those and how do you like it?
Eric N58EW Speedster mod IV
[quote][b]
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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Eric sez:
| Quote: | I bought a constant speed electronic gizmo for my IFA IVO. Haven't
installed it yet. Is anyone using one of those and how do you like
it?
|
I got one for mine, too, but never had a chance to install it. I was
really looking forward to it.
I think some care may be necessary when flying it because the Ivo
pitch motor is relatively slow compared to what you may be used to in
more traditional engine oil-operated constant speed governors. It
may take it quite a few seconds to catch up to anything more than
minor throttle changes.
I still like the idea and I'm likely to add one to my new 'fox.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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I have heard from Jim Chapman that it works to hard.
check with him and he will fill you in.
Clint
| Quote: | Date: Thu C 27 Nov 2008 15:10:17 -0700
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Subject: Re: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>
Eric sez:
>I bought a constant speed electronic gizmo for my IFA IVO. Haven't
>installed it yet. Is anyone using one of those and how do you like
>it?
I got one for mine C too C but never had a chance to install it. I was
really looking forward to it.
I think some care may be necessary when flying it because the Ivo
pitch motor is relatively slow compared to what you may be used to in
more traditional engine oil-operated constant speed governors. It
may take it quite a few seconds to catch up to anything more than
minor throttle changes.
I still like the idea and I'm likely to add one to my new 'fox.
Mike G.
N728KF C Kitfox IV-1200 Sp============
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[quote][b]
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gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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Hi Loyd,
As I said previously I had IVO IFA Props on my previous plane (582) so here's what I found.
Initially I had the 3 blade ultralight IVO prop. I found that due to harmonic vibrations between the C Box and the three bladed prop the electric motor and gearbox would fail after about 50 Hrs. I persevered for about 150 hrs and then with recommendations from Ron at IVO I switched to a 2 bladed Medium. (IVO gave me a full credit on the Ultralight prop against the purchase of the medium prop.)
Basically the system is very simple to operate and with the Fuel flow meter I had you were able to dial up the very best performance and fuel consumption for a given cruise speed.
I could also dial up max RPM for take off on floats and then readjust for optimum cruise RPM. The difference between 6800 rpm and 6300 rpm on floats is pretty amazing and most of my buddies had to compromise with a 6200 to 6300 max static to prevent over revving and high EGT's in cruise.
Only problem I found with IVO system is that it requires a fairly high rate of maintenance on the electric motor and gear box (100Hrs) but the again even if it stopped working (as it did a few times) as long as you stayed within the recommended parameters you were always able to continue on as a fixed pitch system.
With the Jabiru engines IFA props are not allowed - if they were, I would have one again in a heartbeat!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab2200
New Prop - cruise at 108mph!
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"Cudnohufsky's" <7suds(at)Chartermi.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
28/11/2008 03:49 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com To
<kitfox-list(at)matronics.com> cc
Subject
CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds(at)chartermi.net>
All,
With all the talk about cockpit adjustable propellers I would be interested
in hearing how those of you who are flying behind them in your Kitfox have
them set up, how you fly them and what your reasoning is behind your
decisions. Also what experiences / mishaps you have encountered. The reason
I ask is that I have purchased one from John McBean for my 5 and will one
day be learning to use it.
PS. After reading the info from the last posts about prop adjustments and
the braking effect, is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop set
for max climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff and then
attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way, possibly flattening it
out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air which might explain the
pancake landing observed, and at that point did not have enough time or
altitude to recover? Yes, TOTAL speculation.
Thanks,
Lloyd C
Model 5 912 IVO IFA
Michigan
Checked by AVG.
9:02 AM
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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[quote][b]
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
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> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds(at)chartermi.net (7suds(at)chartermi.net)>
| Quote: |
All,
With all the talk about cockpit adjustable propellers I would be interested
in hearing how those of you who are flying behind them in your Kitfox have
them set up, how you fly them and what your reasoning is behind your
decisions. Also what experiences / mishaps you have encountered. The reason
I ask is that I have purchased one from John McBean for my 5 and will one
day be learning to use it.
|
I have eight years and over 400 hours on my NSI CAP with no problems with it other than one time one of the brushes was stuck in the holder and it wouldn't change pitch. However that happened on the ground so it was no problem. Had it happened in the air it still wouldn't have been a problem as I just wouldn't be able to change pitch. It has complete pitch authority right into reverse pitch that enables one to back up the airplane if wanted.
The good thing about any cockpit adjustable prop (CAP) is that you get maximum performance at all phases of flight. As with any CAP one doesn't need to compromise with a pitch angle as is with a ground adjustable prop. The learning curve is very shallow and easily overcome. Simply pitch for max HP on takeoff, add pitch during enroute climb, then add more pitch when leveling off for cruise. Very similar to going into overdrive. I use a combination of engine rpm, manifold pressure, and fuel flow to set mine for cruise.
There are several CAPs out there, including the IVO units, GSC, Airmaster, and others. All have had some teething problems, but eventually most were sorted out. NSI CAPs are no longer being produced.
The Airmaster is a very nice unit that is an actual constant speed prop, but with electrical activation rather than hydruaulics. I met a guy at Oshkosh who gave good reviews on his, but I don't know how many hours he had on it nor how many others are out there performing. It appeared very nicely built though. He said it was designed for the 912x engines.
My advice to you Lloyd is mount that prop and go fly. You'll never go back to an engine without one.
As for what happened to the guy in Colorado, it's futile and pointless to speculate on it. Eventually the NTSB report will spell it all out.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
[quote]
PS. After reading the info from the last posts about prop adjustments and
the braking effect, is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop set
for max climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff and then
attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way, possibly flattening it
out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air which might explain the
pancake landing observed, and at that point did not have enough time or
altitude to recover? Yes, TOTAL speculation.
Thanks,
Lloyd C
Model 5 912 IVO IFA
Michigan
Checked by AVG.
9:02 AM
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