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wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

To extract maximum take off performance without the constant speed

feature I sometimes found it necessary or desirable to pitch the prop

flatter for maximum RPM and manifold pressure. Once on the roll, usually

just a few hundred feet off the ground, forward speed has increased to

the point the prop unloads and RPMs increase beyond what is wanted. One

must then either reduce power or pitch the prop more course. In a normal

take off scenario it really is not necessary to have to make a major

adjustment immediately after lift off. It was nice thought to be able to

go from a great climb prop to a great cruise prop at the touch of a

toggle. 

On a subject not addressed, but one that was really nice, is the short

field  landing or emergency short stop requirement. By putting the prop

in beta, reverse you could do some really cool approaches and short

stops. Not that one would do this on a regular basis when a good side

slip will do. Oh and should you ever need to slow down really fast in

the air, there is nothing more exciting than going beta for a few

seconds at full power. Only did that once with plenty of altitude. What

a rush being pulled forward in your harness. Only once. That was enough

for me. 



Rick



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

I was just watching the "House" marathon on TBS, and they mentioned  

the word "beta", but I didn't see or hear anything about  

propellors....seriously though, what does "beta" mean in the world of  

propellors? All I know about Beta is that is was a superior video  

tape format that the stupid masses voted down in favor of the longer  

running-time VHS.

I really am serious about the question, though....what does beta mean  

in respect to props? (the dictionary exp. doesn't give me a clue)  

(Maybe if I got the additional 20 hours of flight training, I'd know  

this but I didn't and I don't.) : )



Lynn Matteson (educationally challenged Sport Pilot)

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:56 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



(snip)



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 That prop has built in interlocks so that it cannot go into beta  

 above a certain rpm.  I think it's about 1200 prop rpm to be exact,  

 but I'd have to check.

 Deke Morisse


	





<paul(at)eucleides.com>

(snip)



There is no danger of putting in reverse Beta in a constant speed prop.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Lynn asks:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...what does beta mean in respect to props?


	


Beta means the prop pitch can be reversed.  Very handy for float 

planes that need to maneuver to and from a dock without the pilot 

having to get out and use a paddle.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Thanks, Mike....now as a person who needs to know how words came  

about, I just have to know how do I tie the word "beta" into prop  

pitch reversing? The dictionary says (for one example) "the second  

item in a series of classification", so I guess the first is going  

forward, and the second is "beta" or reversing, eh? Sorry to be a  

pain in the butt, but "I gots to know!"

I just can't stand it when they throw a word at something without a  

reasonable explanation for it.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>



 Lynn asks:



> ...what does beta mean in respect to props?



 Beta means the prop pitch can be reversed.  Very handy for float  

 planes that need to maneuver to and from a dock without the pilot  

 having to get out and use a paddle.



 Mike G.

 N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Lynn,



Here's a simple definition of Beta as provided by Hatrzell.  I figure they may know a little about props.

(I through in the feathering definition at no extra charge.)

What is beta? What does feathering mean? 



Beta Range/Reverse

Some constant speed propellers are equipped for beta/reverse operation. Beta Range is any blade angle below flight idle (Hydraulic low pitch stop). Reverse is any blade angle less than zero degrees. This blade angle produces thrust in a direction opposite to that of normal thrust. Such propellers are typically installed on aircraft with turbine engines and are used for to reduce landing roll.

Feathering

Some constant speed propellers, primarily installed on twin engine aircraft, are equipped to reposition the blades until they are nearly aligned with the relative wind. This position, termed feathering, is used to minimize drag, thus increasing single engine performance



 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Nov 27, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



Thanks, Mike....now as a person who needs to know how words came about, I just have to know how do I tie the word "beta" into prop pitch reversing? The dictionary says (for one example) "the second item in a series of classification", so I guess the first is going forward, and the second is "beta" or reversing, eh? Sorry to be a pain in the butt, but "I gots to know!"

I just can't stand it when they throw a word at something without a reasonable explanation for it.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net (MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net)>



Lynn asks:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...what does beta mean in respect to props?

	


Beta means the prop pitch can be reversed.  Very handy for float planes that need to maneuver to and from a dock without the pilot having to get out and use a paddle.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ



http://www.matronics.p;                     -Matt Dralle, List Adminsp;         - MATRONICS WEB FOR========================





	


=  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Thanks, Rick....the feathering I knew about, and the description of  

beta I will accept, but the choice of that particular word for that  

particular function still leaves me scratching my head, but I'll drop  

the line of questioning at that.

And regarding Hartzell...yeah, I figure they know a LOT about props,  

as a friend of mine and I stopped by there on the way home from  

Dayton, Ohio, early one morning, and were taken on about hour's tour  

of the place....we saw everything from the raw stock, to balancing,  

to finished props ready for shipping...really nice folks there.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 27, 2008, at 6:58 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,



 Here's a simple definition of Beta as provided by Hatrzell.  I  

 figure they may know a little about props.

 (I through in the feathering definition at no extra charge.)



 What is beta? What does feathering mean?

 Beta Range/Reverse

 Some constant speed propellers are equipped for beta/reverse  

 operation. Beta Range is any blade angle below flight idle  

 (Hydraulic low pitch stop). Reverse is any blade angle less than  

 zero degrees. This blade angle produces thrust in a direction  

 opposite to that of normal thrust. Such propellers are typically  

 installed on aircraft with turbine engines and are used for to  

 reduce landing roll.



 Feathering

 Some constant speed propellers, primarily installed on twin engine  

 aircraft, are equipped to reposition the blades until they are  

 nearly aligned with the relative wind. This position, termed  

 feathering, is used to minimize drag, thus increasing single engine  

 performance



 Rick Weiss

 N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

 SkyStar S/N 1

 Port Orange, FL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Just curious, Rick.  My NSI prop has mechanical interlocks to keep it from 

going into beta with anything more than 1200 prop rpm.  Did you remove your 

interlocks?  If not, how were you able to do it?

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

On Thu, November 27, 2008 2:08 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I really am serious about the question, though....what does beta mean

 in respect to props? (the dictionary exp. doesn't give me a clue)

 (Maybe if I got the additional 20 hours of flight training, I'd know

 this but I didn't and I don't.) : )


	


Propeller pitch can be specified in two different, but equivalent, ways. The first is

the blade angle, and the second is the pitch. The two are related as follows:



        beta = atan( pitch / (2*pi*0.75*d/2) )



where beta is the blade angle, pi is 3.14159, and d is the propeller diameter. Note

that the pitch and diameter must be specified in the same units.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

On Thu, November 27, 2008 2:51 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks, Mike....now as a person who needs to know how words came

 about, I just have to know how do I tie the word "beta" into prop

 pitch reversing? The dictionary says (for one example) "the second

 item in a series of classification", so I guess the first is going

 forward, and the second is "beta" or reversing, eh?


	


Well, that is not true. Beta is the angle of the propeller at 3/4 radius. A negative

Beta would result in reverse thrust.



Propeller pitch can be specified in two different, but equivalent, ways. The first is

the blade angle, and the second is the pitch. The two are related as follows:



beta = atan( pitch / (2*pi*0.75*d/2) )



where beta is the blade angle, pi is 3.14159, and d is the propeller diameter. Note

that the pitch and diameter must be specified in the same units.



Colloquial usage might be somewhat confusing the facts. Beta, in itself does not imply

reverse thrust. A negative Beta (negative propeller angle measured at the 3/4 radius)

would imply reverse thrust.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

I've flowen with an Ivo IFA for the past three years...  I'd recommend it to

anyone especially anyone who flies on floats.  I'd blip my 582 from 6400 up

to 6800 just for take off. When I had around 200 ft under my feet then I'd

pick up the pitch to reduce rpm back to 6400 for the climb.  When I got to

altitude I'd pick up the pitch again adn slow things down to around 6200

before pulling the throttle and setting a cruise rpm of around 5600 to 5800

rpm.  Before landing I'd go into a climb and reset my prop for 6400 to be

ready for a go around.



I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the water

carrying floats a lot faster.  I never let myself get into a situation where

I could not climb immediately at 400 ft/min. And I always cut my throttle

back to idle to descend.  When I first started flying floats I would use

some throttle to level the plane out on landing but I was never really happy

with doing that so I continually tried to use less and less throttle on

landing,  It got to the point that I haven't used throttle to land in a long

time...  Then again last summer my plane spent it's holiday sans engine in

the shop.  



In the interest of being safe I'll get a few hours with an instructor again

before taking the plane up again.  Things do get rusty.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Lynn:  

   

Beta, â, is the second letter of the Greek alphabet.  Alpha, á, is the first letter.  As props are primarily designed to pull or push a plane through the air I’d assume that that would be the primary, #1 or Alpha job.  Anything else is a second job or Beta.  

   

As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be considered to be in beta operation...  reverse thrust is usually known as “Full Beta”  all turbo prop engines require full beta operation.  Even on floats a Twin Otter will use full beta on landing to shorten the landing run out.  On takeoff beta allows the turbine to spool up without load to deliver the torque required to spin the prop.  

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C9514D.958D0AF0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

912 almost installed  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

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Description:

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Lynn:  

   

 I neglected to say in my last post that the origin of the Beta and Full Beta terms were pure speculation.  They do however make it easier to remember exactly what they do.  

   

Noel  

       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Yup, it sounds like the use of "beta" is to designate the second  

function of the prop. That's the conclusion that I came up with,  

finally.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:06 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn:



 Beta, Î², is the second letter of the Greek alphabet.  Alpha, Î±, is  

 the first letter.  As props are primarily designed to pull or push  

 a plane through the air Iâ€™d assume that that would be the primary,  

 #1 or Alpha job.  Anything else is a second job or Beta.



 As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be  

 considered to be in beta operation...  reverse thrust is usually  

 known as â€œFull Betaâ€  all turbo prop engines require full beta  

 operation.  Even on floats a Twin Otter will use full beta on  

 landing to shorten the landing run out.  On takeoff beta allows the  

 turbine to spool up without load to deliver the torque required to  

 spin the prop.



 Noel Loveys

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Sounds like a good assumption, Noel..certainly works for me. And  

thank God I don't have to do all that setting, resetting and stuff  

when I fly...just look out the window for minutes on end, and  

occasionally glance at the gauges..or is it the other way around? : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, 593hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Lynn:



  I neglected to say in my last post that the origin of the Beta and  

 Full Beta terms were pure speculation.  They do however make it  

 easier to remember exactly what they do.



 Noel



 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Well, that is not true. Beta is the angle of the propeller at 3/4 radius. A negative Beta would result in reverse thrust.



Propeller pitch can be specified in two different, but equivalent, ways. The first is the blade angle, and the second is the pitch. 	


Not quite right, Alpha is the blade Angle of Attack



The term Beta in this usage means the following

On Turboprop aircraft with a constant speed prop, power lever settings between flight idle and maximum power allow the prop governor to select the appropriate blade pitch to maintain a set RPM and this is called the Alpha mode of operation. When the power lever is moved below flight idle the lever directly controls the pitch angle of the blades and this is referred to as Beta mode where the pitch can be changed from the flight idle position to full reverse, also known as Full Beta.



For those interested in propeller aerodynamics



In aerodynamics the Greek letter alpha is commonly used to denote the Angle of Attack of an aerofoil (wing shape), that is the angle between the chord line and the relative airflow. This is also true for propellers as they are really just aerofoils in rotation, in this case the reference Alpha is taken at 75 percent span from the centre of the hub.



Note that this is a completely separate measure to the blade pitch angle which is a geometric angle of the blade relative to the plane of rotation of the prop. Where Angle of Attack (or Alpha) will change with both the airspeed and RPM the pitch angle remains constant,hence the term "fixed pitch". Constant speed props operate differently by continually changing the blade pitch angle to achieve a constant RPM.



As Alpha changes so too do the lift and drag properties, the most efficient use of power is when the blade achieves its best lift to drag ratio. Every blade design will have its own optimum Alpha for best lift to drag which, at a given pitch angle, is dependent on relative airspeed and RPM. Thus a fixed pitch prop is only operating at its most efficient at a given RPM and airspeed. One can choose the best operating regime by setting the blade pitch angle to give max efficiency at that speed and power setting. Ground adjustable props make this a once per flight deal but In-flight adjustable (or variable pitch) props allow the pilot to select the best pitch angle, and in doing so optimize Alpha for the conditions. 



What may surprise people is that a negative blade AoA can occur at positive blade pitch angles because it is relative to the airflow and not the aircraft. At zero airspeed a nearly flat pitch angle would be required to get negative Alpha but as airspeed increases it can be achieved at coarser angles because as forward airspeed increases at a given RPM the AoA of the blade decreases. Hence at higher airspeeds the pilot will require a coarser blade pitch to keep the prop working at its most efficient Alpha. Also because higher forward airspeeds decrease AoA, if you take your in-flight adjustable prop in cruise flight and send it to fully fine too quickly there is a good chance that it will achieve negative thrust and provide a rather effective airbrake until the airspeed reduces sufficiently and equilibrium is once again reached. This might not be too good for your engine though.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Here's the webpages featuring the Kitfox that crashed, full details and

pictures. It was purchased by a missionary to fly from village to village in

Guatamala. They are currently looking for another similar plane to replace

it.

http://www.pattonministries.org/kitFox/kitFox-Main.php



More details about the crash:

http://www.albertleatribune.com/news/2008/nov/28/pilot-speaks-about-survivin

g-airplane-crash/



Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Boy C that is one obese Model IV. Even without Grove gear.  What is this 10% increase in weight?

  

 Clint



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

 Date: Wed C 3 Dec 2008 10:00:39 -0500

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 Here's the webpages featuring the Kitfox that crashed C full details and

 pictures. It was purchased by a missionary to fly from village to village in

 Guatamala. They are currently looking for another similar plane to replace

 it.

 http://www.pattonministries.org/kitFox/kitFox-Main.php

 

 More details about the crash:

 http://www.albertleatribune.com/news/2008/nov/28/pilot-speaks-about-survivin

 g-airplane-crash/

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB 

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

 --

aviateer

Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

How is it that the gross weight was increased by 10%? I asked about this several years ago when I wanted to place my C IV on floats, and received mixed answers.

  

  

  

 Thanks,

  

  

 Kirk

 On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com (clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Boy, that is one obese Model IV. Even without Grove gear.  What is this 10% increase in weight?

 

Clint



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name (matronics(at)bob.brennan.name)

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: RE: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:00:39 -0500

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name (matronics(at)bob.brennan.name)>

 > 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Here's the webpages featuring the Kitfox that crashed, full details and

 pictures. It was purchased by a missionary to fly from village to village in

 Guatamala. They are currently looking for another similar plane to replace

 > it.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.pattonministries.org/kitFox/kitFox-Main.php

 

 More details about the crash:

 http://www.albertleatribune.com/news/2008/nov/28/pilot-speaks-about-survivin

 > g-airplane-crash/
	


[quote] 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB 

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

Some, not all aircraft are certified to carry either 10% or more commonly 100lb more if they are on floats.  The thinking here is at cruise speed the floats passing through the air fly themselves removing the excess weight from the plane’s structure.  I’m not saying this is the case but I can say for sure my ‘Fox on Aerocet 1100s  doesn’t slip very well.  I think that specification has to be made when the plane is first registered.  

BTW the extra pork on that plane hasn’t gone unnoticed...  I had a reference to it offlist.  

Noel  

  

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kitfoxkirk

 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 2:37 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado  

  

How is it that the gross weight was increased by 10%? I asked about this several years ago when I wanted to place my C IV on floats, and received mixed answers.  

   

   

   

Thanks,  

   

   

====================     [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Kitfox mishap in Colorado

On Wed, December 3, 2008 9:33 am, Clint Bazzill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Boy, that is one obese Model IV. Even without Grove gear.


	


Did you see the details of the plane on his web page? the thing was loaded! Fancy

panel and some other heavy stuff like a huge oil tank which I haven't seen before.

That was a pretty nice airplane. Not final paint. For the money he paid for the engine

and prop at the time, I think another engine choice such as the 912 would have made

more sense since the useful load is a little limiting.



As to the 10%, I think that is speculation that the plane can be over gross by that

amount in smooth air. Probably nothing official and definitely not recommended.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

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