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AVN100(at)AOL.COM
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: flap usage |
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This persistent and unsafe reluctance to add flaps in a GA traffic pattern turn stems from anecdotal/isolated incidents, hysterical old wives' tales of unintended snap rolls followed by wing-shucking death spirals, and necessarily ham-fisted military "burner or drag chute" extreme operation. Instead of the previously-recommended dragging a light aircraft around with power to carry full flaps applied on downwind through base and enough of final to see and be seen, the incremental application of flaps throughout an approach both reflects and achieves smoothness and planning in the critical areas of field of vision, speed, trim, and descent angle adjustments. First notch (rather than full) on downwind coincidentally reduces the likelihood of exceeding multiple Vfe/fo limits when they vary with degree of extension. Most convincingly, the total time spent during the turns downwind to base and base to final in a reasonably close-in pattern is far more than the time straight and level on base. To prohibit flap movement during those long banked periods is to impose haste and rigidity in their usage and to reduce options for fine tuning power and descent angle adjustments for newly observed wind, traffic, obstacles, etc. Footnote: wouldn't dumping full flaps mid downwind in a Lightning mean you have slowed to below 75 while clean, meaning you entered downwind at 80 or so, meaning traffic is backing up and S-turning behind you at most airports? Finally, certified production GA aircraft are required and flight-tested to be fully controllable in an asymmetric flap condition encountered either wings level or while turning. If the Lightning is subject to but incapable of safely handling this happenstance with an average pilot at the controls, it (or at least the E/SLSA prototype) urgently needs to be redesigned.
Life tin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.
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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: flap usage |
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Steve,
Apparently you have not had the opportunity to fly a Lightning yet based on your stated concerns. There is no problem with any of the situations or concerns you mention. On the Lightning, when you lower flaps, the aircraft pitch angle decreases so there is no visibility problem when using flaps - visibility over the nose is better. For a normal Lighting landing you use 30 degrees of flaps, not the full 40 degrees. That last 10 degrees is all drag and generally reserved for when you might need a really steep approach. Also, the Lightning flap motor is relatively fast, so there is no lengthy time on down wind if you chose to put the full 30 degrees down before turning base. And finally, if you have a relatively close in pattern, you will not be adding power on base of final. I find that I am pretty much at idle power for the entire time from when I roll off the "perch" on downwind to touch down. (Of course, a "mile wide" down wind and base, and a mile long final is a totally different animal.) Finally, there is no prohibition to the technique of putting some flaps down on down wind, some on base or some on final. Just do what works best for you. Remember, flexibility is the key to air power.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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info(at)flylightning.net
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: flap usage |
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To the unknown and unsigned,
No you would not have to enter the pattern at 80, if you have flown the Lightning or read a little more on it ( since this is where I would assume you are getting your information and not actual interaction) that the full flap speed is 90 and you can even put down 10 (at) 100 if desired. Most GA aircraft I have flown IE Cessna, piper, fly patterns at 90 or below anyways so the likely hood of backing any one up is slim..and remember if your behind someone they have the right away and you must make space so don’t know what the problem is here. That in turn would mean you would have slowed to 100 in the pattern before your first 10 and than 90 on the perch before the descent. Any technique is fine as long as that is what you are used to, weather you like all the flaps at your key position ( I would assume you know what that is) and a nice power off glide all the way around using your distance and timing to adjust instead of power and flaps and PFM. Draggin it in as you would state is most likely not an issue with better than a 18 to 1 glide clean and 15 to 1 dirty, the Lightning has a better glide than most GA aircraft clean, again a more intimate knowledge of the aircraft might be in order. As for the final indication of a redesign for asymmetric flap conditions you know of course that this is highly unlikely. The design does not lend it self to this kind of failure, as does one with cables to operate the flaps( Cessna) or a thru type torque rod with a center split and connection (piper) but a solid one piece torque tube and direct connection to a drive rod buried so deep In the flap that it would be easier to get your real name out than the drive rod ( we know it is not steve). If you wish to dive deeper into the design with out knowing of her and only seeing her from a picture or possible glance across the ramp be my guest , but rest assured I have taken her home and my friend that is the intimate knowledge you will never have.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 1:12 AM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: flap usage
This persistent and unsafe reluctance to add flaps in a GA traffic pattern turn stems from anecdotal/isolated incidents, hysterical old wives' tales of unintended snap rolls followed by wing-shucking death spirals, and necessarily ham-fisted military "burner or drag chute" extreme operation. Instead of the previously-recommended dragging a light aircraft around with power to carry full flaps applied on downwind through base and enough of final to see and be seen, the incremental application of flaps throughout an approach both reflects and achieves smoothness and planning in the critical areas of field of vision, speed, trim, and descent angle adjustments. First notch (rather than full) on downwind coincidentally reduces the likelihood of exceeding multiple Vfe/fo limits when they vary with degree of extension. Most convincingly, the total time spent during the turns downwind to base and base to final in a reasonably close-in pattern is far more than the time straight and level on base. To prohibit flap movement during those long banked periods is to impose haste and rigidity in their usage and to reduce options for fine tuning power and descent angle adjustments for newly observed wind, traffic, obstacles, etc. Footnote: wouldn't dumping full flaps mid downwind in a Lightning mean you have slowed to below 75 while clean, meaning you entered downwind at 80 or so, meaning traffic is backing up and S-turning behind you at most airports? Finally, certified production GA aircraft are required and flight-tested to be fully controllable in an asymmetric flap condition encountered either wings level or while turning. If the Lightning is subject to but incapable of safely handling this happenstance with an average pilot at the controls, it (or at least the E/SLSA prototype) urgently needs to be redesigned.
Life tin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.
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