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Engine idle speed set too low

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EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

In a message dated 12/1/2008 2:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  lightning-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After    turning final, I pulled the throttle off for a nice decent. As it 

turned    out, the idle was too low and the engine died. There was a 

certain amount    of "Pucker Factor" involved at that moment but I was over 

the threshold    and lots of runway ahead, so, I just set it down and 

rolled out. The    transition training I received from Arion was life 

saving. Thanks    guys. 	
  

 Gary, You're not the only one who has had this happen, so perhaps it's  worth some discussion here.

  

  I've cranked up my idle a number of times, but it still tends to  happen. I've also learned to watch the rpm on final so it doesn't happen.  Having the engine quit as you cross the R/W threshold is disconcerting. My  reaction when this happened was/is to add a little throttle and hit the starter.  The springy gear legs on a lightning are prone to bounce (in spite of what Buz  says) and I don't want to have the beginning of a bounce-oscillation and not be  able to add power to stabilize the airplane or to go around if necessary. Hence  my SOP to restart.

  

 Incidentally, if you let someone else have a landing, I suggest that you  brief them on this possibility.

 Let's see what the rest of the crowd has to say.

  

 Earl Ferguson

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 	
 

  



Life should be easier. So olcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

staufferm

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 34

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

To the group,  

   

I don’t know if this will solve the problem but I thought I’d throw it out there because it’s helped us here in Shelbyville. What we’ve started doing here at the shop is add a second cable swivel stop to the throttle cable.  

   

What happens is with the throttle extension installed (standard with the kit) the longer moment arm makes it much easier to pull back on the throttle and bend the idle stop tab to a point that you can pull the throttle back to a point where the engine quits. We’ve had this happen many times, especially with transition training when pilots (myself included) pull too hard back on the throttle trying to reduce RPM.  

   

What we do now is add this additional swivel stop to the cable between the throttle arm and the end of the cable sheath. We warm up the engine and then set the throttle to a good idle speed. Turn off the engine (don’t move the throttle!)  and then slide the second swivel stop up against the sheath of the cable and tighten it down. This provides a good mechanical stop that should prevent you from bending the idle stop tab.  

   

Hope this helps!  

   

Mark  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EAFerguson(at)aol.com

 Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:23 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Engine idle speed set too low  

  

  

     

In a message dated 12/1/2008 2:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lightning-list(at)matronics.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

After turning final, I pulled the throttle off for a nice decent. As it 

 turned out, the idle was too low and the engine died. There was a 

 certain amount of "Pucker Factor" involved at that moment but I was over 

 the threshold and lots of runway ahead, so, I just set it down and 

 rolled out. The transition training I received from Arion was life 

 saving. Thanks guys.  	
    

   

    

Gary, You're not the only one who has had this happen, so perhaps it's worth some discussion here.  

    

   

    

 I've cranked up my idle a number of times, but it still tends to happen. I've also learned to watch the rpm on final so it doesn't happen. Having the engine quit as you cross the R/W threshold is disconcerting. My reaction when this happened was/is to add a little throttle and hit the starter. The springy gear legs on a lightning are prone to bounce (in spite of what Buz says) and I don't want to have the beginning of a bounce-oscillation and not be able to add power to stabilize the airplane or to go around if necessary. Hence my SOP to restart.  

    

   

    

Incidentally, if you let someone else have a landing, I suggest that you brief them on this possibility.  

    

Let's see what the rest of the crowd has to say.  

    

   

    

Earl Ferguson  

   	  Quote: 	
		    



    	
    

   

  



 

         

  

Life should be easier. So olcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.  

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ritchie(at)wave.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Hi guys,

  I don't often join into these discussions but this topic is close to home

for me. I have had this problem on a more or less chronic basis along with

another fellow who flies TDT for me. I have tried adjusting the idle up and

back down again with no luck at correcting the problem. With the help of

some technically skilled engineers we have localized the problem to the

throttle connection on the bing carb. It's pretty basic with no substance

when back pressure is applied. I was told I would have to learn to fly the

plane with this minor design issue. As I am one of those pilots that tends

to keep back pressure on the throttle during touch down I of course keep

shutting the engine down. I decided to bite the bullet and have a go at

changing the carb to the far less complicated and far more robust Aero Vee.

I have solved this problem as well as picked up some serious horse power by

way of an increase in static RPM. The CHT's and EGT's immediately fell into

line and they are easily managed. The added advantage of cockpit fuel

management with mixture control is a bonus. I am in the early stages of

documenting this and some other mods and will get it to Buz for the

newsletter when I am comfortable with the results.

One of those down under fellas,



Ron Ritchie TDT 

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:22:53 EST, EAFerguson(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 12/1/2008 2:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

 lightning-list(at)matronics.com writes:

 

 After  turning final, I pulled the throttle off for a nice decent. As it

 turned  out, the idle was too low and the engine died. There was a

 certain amount  of "Pucker Factor" involved at that moment but I was over

 the threshold  and lots of runway ahead, so, I just set it down and

 rolled out. The  transition training I received from Arion was life

 saving. Thanks  guys.

 

 Gary, You're not the only one who has had this happen, so perhaps it's 

 worth

 some discussion here.

 

  I've cranked up my idle a number of times, but it still tends to 

happen.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I've also learned to watch the rpm on final so it doesn't happen.  Having

 the

 engine quit as you cross the R/W threshold is disconcerting. My  reaction

 when

 this happened was/is to add a little throttle and hit the starter.  The

 springy

 gear legs on a lightning are prone to bounce (in spite of what Buz  says)

 and

 I don't want to have the beginning of a bounce-oscillation and not be 

 able

 to add power to stabilize the airplane or to go around if necessary.

Hence
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    my

 SOP to restart.

 

 Incidentally, if you let someone else have a landing, I suggest that you

 brief them on this possibility.

 Let's see what the rest of the crowd has to say.

 

 Earl Ferguson

 

 

 

 

 

 **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW

 AOL.com.

pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Good morning Earl

  

 Thanks for the recommendations. 

  

 The idle seems to be different on the ground than when on final. Maybe I'm  pulling harder on the cable when in flight. Not sure. Nick advised me to install  a barrel stop on the throttle cable to avoid pulling too hard and bending the  idle stop on the carb. I think it is a good idea, though I just haven't had time  to do it. 

  

 Have a great day Earl

  

 Gary Pennington

 [quote]   ---

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Gary:

  

 i think part of the reason that idle is different in the air is because of the effect of the air wanting to windmill your prop when your aircraft moving.

  

 Keeps the engine idling.  I have had the same experience twiice now with my engine quitting when I was over the numbers, or in the second case, just past.  I was doing touch and goes and cleaned the airplane up, then restarted the engine.  It is a nice thing that the 3300 starts so easily.  We are looking at a resolution to the engine quitting problem as well.

   

 Jim!

 On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 7:18 AM, GARY PENNINGTON <pennington(at)q.com (pennington(at)q.com)> wrote:

 [quote]    Good morning Earl

  

 Thanks for the recommendations. 

  

 The idle seems to be different on the ground than when on final. Maybe I'm pulling harder on the cable when in flight. Not sure. Nick advised me to install a barrel stop on the throttle cable to avoid pulling too hard and bending the idle stop on the carb. I think it is a good idea, though I just haven't had time to do it. 

   

 Have a great day Earl

  

 Gary Pennington

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 	




[b]

EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

In a message dated 12/1/2008 9:51:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

What    we do now is add this additional swivel stop to the cable between the throttle    arm and the end of the cable sheath. We warm up the engine and then set the    throttle to a good idle speed. Turn off the engine (donâ€™t move the throttle!)     and then slide the second swivel stop up against the sheath of the cable    and tighten it down. This provides a good mechanical stop that should prevent    you from bending the idle stop  tab. 	


 

 Mark, would you post some instructions and maybe a pix of this fix?

  

 Thanks.

  

 Earl



Life should be easier. So shcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

mark(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Hi Earl and others!

  

 Attached is a picture of our idle stop set  screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle  arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000  words.

  

 This is not the only way to skin this cat  but rather what works well for us.

  

 Mark

  

  

 [quote]   --

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

You know, I was thinking about using something like a wheel collar that is typically used to hold wheels on  RC airplane axles.  Same concept.

  

 Cool...

 On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Mark Stauffer <mark(at)flylightning.net (mark(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:

 [quote]  Hi Earl and others!

  

 Attached is a picture of our idle stop set screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000 words.

  

 This is not the only way to skin this cat but rather what works well for us.

  

 Mark

  

  

 [quote] --

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Jim,  

   

I think Linda did just that …it is like a 1/8” collar .  

   

nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley

 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:59 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Engine idle speed set too low  

  

     

You know, I was thinking about using something like a wheel collar that is typically used to hold wheels on  RC airplane axles.  Same concept.  

    

   

    

Cool...  

    

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Mark Stauffer <mark(at)flylightning.net (mark(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:      

Hi Earl and others!  

    

   

    

Attached is a picture of our idle stop set screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000 words.  

    

   

    

This is not the only way to skin this cat but rather what works well for us.  

    

   

    

Mark  

    

   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)]On Behalf Of EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM (EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM)

 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:00 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Engine idle speed set too low      

In a message dated 12/1/2008 9:51:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com (mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com) writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

What we do now is add this additional swivel stop to the cable between the throttle arm and the end of the cable sheath. We warm up the engine and then set the throttle to a good idle speed. Turn off the engine (don't move the throttle!)  and then slide the second swivel stop up against the sheath of the cable and tighten it down. This provides a good mechanical stop that should prevent you from bending the idle stop tab.  	
  

    

Mark, would you post some instructions and maybe a pix of this fix?  

    

   

    

Thanks.  

    

   

    

Earl  

  



 

         

  

Life should be easier. So shcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.  

   	  Quote: 	
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        [quote][b]

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

To everyone, here is what we are talking about.  Just slip it over the cable and tighten the collar as mark described.  Depending on available space, you may be able to use two, (for redundancy)

  

 http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK189&P=ML

  

 Jim!

 On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:22 PM, flylightning <info(at)flylightning.net (info(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:

 [quote]   

Jim, 

  

I think Linda did just that …it is like a 1/8" collar . 

  

nick 

     

 

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Langley

 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:59 AM  

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Engine idle speed set too low

  



  

   

You know, I was thinking about using something like a wheel collar that is typically used to hold wheels on  RC airplane axles.  Same concept. 

  

 

  

Cool...

  

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Mark Stauffer <mark(at)flylightning.net (mark(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:    

Hi Earl and others!

  

 

  

Attached is a picture of our idle stop set screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000 words. 

  

 

  

This is not the only way to skin this cat but rather what works well for us.

  

 

  

Mark

  

 

  

 

 [quote] 

--

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Keep in mind that this doesn't just happen with the Lightning or an experimental aircraft.  I've had this happen with a Cessna several times and you can do it in a Piper as well.  Just depends on how strong armed you are with them.  Brian W.

  From: EAFerguson(at)aol.com

Date: Mon C 1 Dec 2008 21:22:53 -0500

Subject: Engine idle speed set too low

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 In a message dated 12/1/2008 2:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time C lightning-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After turning final C I pulled the throttle off for a nice decent. As it 

turned out C the idle was too low and the engine died. There was a 

certain amount of "Pucker Factor" involved at that moment but I was over 

the threshold and lots of runway ahead C so C I just set it down and 

rolled out. The transition training I received from Arion was life 

saving. Thanks guys. 	

 Gary C You're not the only one who has had this happen C so perhaps it's worth some discussion here.

  I've cranked up my idle a number of times C but it still tends to happen. I've also learned to watch the rpm on final so it doesn't happen. Having the engine quit as you cross the R/W threshold is disconcerting. My reaction when this happened was/is to add a little throttle and hit the starter. The springy gear legs on a lightning are prone to bounce (in spite of what Buz says) and I don't want to have the beginning of a bounce-oscillation and not be able to add power to stabilize the airplane or to go around if necessary. Hence my SOP to restart.

 Incidentally C if you let someone else have a landing C I suggest that you brief them on this possibility.

 Let's see what the rest of the crowd has to say.

 Earl Ferguson

  	  Quote: 	

   Life should be easier. So olcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002">Try the NEW AOL.com.

 	  Quote: 	

ww.matronics.com/contribution

st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

ronics.com

Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that.  Get your Hotmail® account now.  [quote][b]

lbmathias(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Jim,

  

     That is about the same thing  installed on my plane; I had several instances of the engine quitting on short  final or right after landing before I installed this.

  

 Linda

 [quote]   ---

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Yep, it was a little unnerving the first time it happened, but the 3300 starts so quickly, it got used to it.  I’m going to use your wheel collar idea.  

   

Jim!  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS

 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 9:54 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine idle speed set too low  

  

  

     

Jim,  

    

   

    

    That is about the same thing installed on my plane; I had several instances of the engine quitting on short final or right after landing before I installed this.  

    

   

    

Linda  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Jim Langley (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)   

    

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 1:34 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Engine idle speed set too low  

    

   

    

To everyone, here is what we are talking about.  Just slip it over the cable and tighten the collar as mark described.  Depending on available space, you may be able to use two, (for redundancy)  

    

   

    

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK189&P=ML  

    

   

    

Jim!  

    

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:22 PM, flylightning <info(at)flylightning.net (info(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:      

Jim,  

   

I think Linda did just that …it is like a 1/8" collar .  

   

nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Langley

 Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:59 AM     



 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Engine idle speed set too low  

  

    

     

You know, I was thinking about using something like a wheel collar that is typically used to hold wheels on  RC airplane axles.  Same concept.  

    

   

    

Cool...  

    

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Mark Stauffer <mark(at)flylightning.net (mark(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:      

Hi Earl and others!  

    

   

    

Attached is a picture of our idle stop set screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000 words.  

    

   

    

This is not the only way to skin this cat but rather what works well for us.  

    

   

    

Mark  

    

   

    

   

  [quote]  

--

EAFerguson(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

In a message dated 12/2/2008 12:41:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark(at)flylightning.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Attached is a picture of our idle stop set    screw. It's the same set screw (AKA swivel stop) that we use in the throttle    arm. Hopefully a picture is better than me trying to type a 1000    words.

	


 

 Mark,

  

 Good pix, thanks. But give me a little more guidance on what this swivel  stop device is and where to get one.

  

 Also, it looks like the throttle cable has to be disconnected for the  installation. Is that correct? Or does this clip on?

  

 Earl



Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place.  Try it now.

  [quote][b]

mark(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

Hi Earl,

  

 The swivel stop device is the exact same  thing that you should have on your throttle now. I can mail one out to you if  you'd like. Or, if you have a local hobby store that sells models you can get a  collar with a set screw like the one in the link Jim sent. That would  probably be cheaper and quicker.

  

 No, it does not clip on. You'll have to  loosen the set screw in the swivel stop on the throttle arm and pull the  throttle cable back. Slide the collar or swivel stop onto your cable and then  slide the throttle cable back through the swivel stop on the throttle arm. At  this point we're talking about two swivel stops - one on the cable and one in  the throttle arm.

  

 Hope this helps!

  

 Mark

  

 [quote]   --

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Engine idle speed set too low

The wheel collar that you can pick up from just about any local hobby shop should be for a 1/8” axle.  Nick told me that this is what Linda used very successfully.  If you are a bit of a gorilla, (like me), you could put two collars on to assure that you do not pull the collars loose.  Also, they tighten down on the cable with a small hex set screw.  I would recommend that you use a little red loctite on the set screw to keep it from coming out and taking a ling dive while you’re flying.  This is what we do for RC.  Very easy to get it back out with a little heat.  

   

Jim!  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer

 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:33 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Engine idle speed set too low  

  

  

     

Hi Earl,  

    

   

    

The swivel stop device is the exact same thing that you should have on your throttle now. I can mail one out to you if you'd like. Or, if you have a local hobby store that sells models you can get a collar with a set screw like the one in the link Jim sent. That would probably be cheaper and quicker.  

    

   

    

No, it does not clip on. You'll have to loosen the set screw in the swivel stop on the throttle arm and pull the throttle cable back. Slide the collar or swivel stop onto your cable and then slide the throttle cable back through the swivel stop on the throttle arm. At this point we're talking about two swivel stops - one on the cable and one in the throttle arm.  

    

   

    

Hope this helps!  

    

   

    

Mark  

    

   

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