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karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: Warning.

Dear Europaphiles,

 During the month of october I received a lettre  from the Belgian Federal Police notifying me that for the exit or entrance in  the Shengen Countries we need to use one of the six recognised aerports in  Belgium: Brussels, Antwerp, Liège, Charleroi, Ostend and Kortrijk. Offenders  shall be fined....etc.

 Last time I was in England I coasted in at Lydd.  There was nobody in the office nor police nor customs. The other times before I  never saw the customs in Popham, Dunkeswell or Welshpool even when I asked  for, several hours in advance with the adequate form. 

 I never refuse a control from whatever authority,  if they ask me. But why have I to pay and tell them what I will do with my small  aircraft? Is this European freedom? Why were we upset in Arad (Roumania) or  Forli (Italia) with this officialdom?

 To avoid the cost for 4 extra landings (Lydd 15£  and Kortrijk 23 Euro) or approximately 92 Euro for a one day trip to England, I  suggested that they could attach an electronic stamp to my ankle like is done  for prisonners in conditional liberty. They said that is only for light  criminals! (Joke)

 Best regards,

 Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL

  

   [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Warning.

Hi! Karel.   

This “smacks” of the imposition of a “Terminal Navigation Charge” which the Tempelhof  “zeigheil”  are just demanding from me! Unless there is something you really want to do (like demonstrate outside the European Parliament!) or see in Belgium I guess the way round it is NOT to visit the damn place! But if you are based there I guess you are “between a rock and a hard place”!   

 In the meantime wake up to the real world of undemocratic European Union Militia State Dictatorship Population   

Control like the rest of the public need to get used to! Then start to do something about it.(NO JOKE!)  

Best Regards   

Bob Harrison G-PTAG  

   

--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Warning.

Robert C Harrison wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hi! Karel.



  In the meantime wake up to the real world of undemocratic European 

 Union Militia State Dictatorship Population



 Control like the rest of the public need to get used to! Then start to 

 do something about it.(NO JOKE!)



 Best Regards



 Bob Harrison G-PTAG



Bob
	


OTH it might be better than the government run police state we are 

rapidly approaching. Our MPs are little more than apologists for 

permanent professional politicians who never did anything useful in the 

real world. I struggle to see which is the lesser evil!

Graham.

tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Warning.

... I struggle to see which is the lesser evil!



Graham,



This might help you. The one on the right is the lesser of two weevils

 

Tony

weevils-big-small.jpg

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John Heykoop

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: Warning.

Hi Bob

  

 Karel's problems have nothing to do with European Union regulations. They  are due entirely to the fact that, unlike nearly all the other EU  countires, the UK has not signed up to the Schengen agreement, which eliminates  passport control between participating countries. Belgian regulations therefore  require Karel to depart from an airfield with passport control when he wants to  go to the UK.

  

 If you could concentrate your considerable political energies on persuading  the UK government to sign up to the Schengen deal then Karel could fly from any  airfield in Belgium to any airfield in the UK by just filing a flight  plan. UK based pilots would enjoy similar benefits in that they would no  longer have to land at an airfield with customs when flying to mainland  Europe. 

  

 Best regards

  

 John Heykoop

    

 In a message dated 04/12/2008 23:18:08 GMT Standard Time,  ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

Hi! Karel.       

This â€œsmacksâ€ of the    imposition of a â€œTerminal Navigation Chargeâ€ which the Tempelhof  â€œzeigheilâ€  are    just demanding from me! Unless there is something you really want to do (like    demonstrate outside the European Parliament!) or see in    Belgium I guess the way    round it is NOT to visit the damn place! But if you are based there I guess    you are â€œbetween a rock and a hard placeâ€!    

 In the meantime wake up to the real    world of undemocratic European Union Militia State Dictatorship Population       

Control like the rest    of the public need to get used to! Then start to do something about it.(NO JOKE!)   

Best Regards       

Bob Harrison    G-PTAG   

    

-----Original    Message-----

From:    owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]    On Behalf Of    karelvranken

Sent: 04 December 2008 22:01

To: Europa    List

Subject:    Europa-List:    Warning.   

       

Dear    Europaphiles,

      

During the month of october I    received a lettre from the Belgian Federal Police notifying me that for the    exit or entrance in the Shengen Countries we need to use one of the six    recognised aerports in Belgium: Brussels, Antwerp, LiÃ¨ge, Charleroi, Ostend    and Kortrijk. Offenders shall be    fined....etc.

      

Last time I was in England I    coasted in at Lydd. There was nobody in the office nor police nor customs. The    other times before I never saw the customs in Popham, Dunkeswell or Welshpool    even when I asked for, several hours in advance with the adequate form.    

      

I never refuse a control from    whatever authority, if they ask me. But why have I to pay and tell them what I    will do with my small aircraft? Is this European freedom? Why were we upset in    Arad (Roumania) or Forli (Italia) with this    officialdom?

      

To avoid the cost for 4 extra    landings (Lydd 15Â£ and Kortrijk 23 Euro) or approximately 92 Euro for a one    day trip to England, I suggested that they could attach an electronic stamp to    my ankle like is done for prisonners in conditional liberty. They said that is    only for light criminals! (Joke)

      

Best    regards,

      

Karel Vranken, #447    F-PKRL

      

 

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Warning.

Just to add to the confusion: On my last trip, shortly after crossing the Polish border i was redirected to Gdansk. For customs...That while i had an approved fflightplan to a small airport close to Warschow. And the flight was from Letland to Poland, both Schengen countries. 

But then flying into any aiport in Norway from any Schengen country is fine as long as the flightplan s enered 4 hours in advance. Norway is not EU, but is Schengen too.



Regards,



Jos

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

hansjd(at)online.no
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Warning.

Very well pointed out, John!

  

 Let's keep these pages free from political randering. To Bob and others: Eu  is a success - for the mere fact that it has made war impossible in Europe! As a  "european" in Norway - I'm just sorry we're not a member. (But, believe it or  not - we ARE a member of  Shengen, through the EÃ˜S agreement).

  

   This forum was not meant to be a "soape box" stand for one's  political anger - let's consentrate on Europa-business!

  

 Hans, LN-HJD/#334

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Warning.

Bob,

 Can you ask the British Government to join Shengen  and use our currency ?

 That would be an enormous progress.

 Regards,

 Karel Vranken, # 447  F-PKRL

 [quote]   ---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Warning.

Bob,

  

 at the same time it is better to ask also right hand  traffic and SI-units.

 One big bomb is better than...

 You built Europa - that must be easy for you.  

 If they wonder your mind say "those continent Europa boys  push me...".

 Good luck.

  

 Raimo

 Europa owner from Finland

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Warning.

Tony Krzyzewski wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   .... I struggle to see which is the lesser evil!



 Graham,



 This might help you. The one on the right is the lesser of two weevils

  

 Tony

True  , can't remember the question now, hope you are both well
	


Graham

H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Warning.

This  is already for years. I remember a couple of years ago flying in France that I  had to make a stop at Le Touget because I could not make the  Netherlands anymore before sun set. It was 19.50 and the airport close  at 20.00. I got approval to divert and to land. Airtraffic controler gave me 5  extra minutes so I made it. There was nobody anymore on the airport only one the  firer figther who helpo by parking and closed the gate.

  

 Next  morning I was surprised to meet the police and I had to follow him to his  office. Together with an English pilot I was his guest and he informd us that we  got a ticket for a landing without customs declaration.

  

  I could prove that I came from a airport in France so I was lucky  but the  English pilot got a penalty of euro 700. Direct  to pay  and cash. So I can tell yuo he was not to happy.

  

 There  was no customs open that night before, there was no police and their was no  airport authorities available. No excuse, he had to pay.

  

 Be  carefull

  

 Hans

 [quote]   -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

Van:    owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens    karelvranken

Verzonden: donderdag 4 december 2008    23:01

Aan: Europa List

Onderwerp: Europa-List:    Warning.

   Dear Europaphiles,

   During the month of october I received a lettre    from the Belgian Federal Police notifying me that for the exit or entrance in    the Shengen Countries we need to use one of the six recognised aerports in    Belgium: Brussels, Antwerp, Liège, Charleroi, Ostend and Kortrijk. Offenders    shall be fined....etc.

   Last time I was in England I coasted in at Lydd.    There was nobody in the office nor police nor customs. The other times before    I never saw the customs in Popham, Dunkeswell or Welshpool even when I    asked for, several hours in advance with the adequate form. 

   I never refuse a control from whatever authority,    if they ask me. But why have I to pay and tell them what I will do with my    small aircraft? Is this European freedom? Why were we upset in Arad (Roumania)    or Forli (Italia) with this officialdom?

   To avoid the cost for 4 extra landings (Lydd 15£    and Kortrijk 23 Euro) or approximately 92 Euro for a one day trip to England,    I suggested that they could attach an electronic stamp to my ankle like is    done for prisonners in conditional liberty. They said that is only for light    criminals! (Joke)

   Best regards,

   Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
[b]

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Warning.

If you look what is brewing in the United States in regard to no-fly-list-requirements etc, it’s perhaps time to get back into Model Planes again. There is a nice 1/4/ size EUROPA XS kit available...  

Christoph Both  

Full size #223 not yet flying...  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hans Siedsma

 Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:51 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Warning.  

  

  

     

This is already for years. I remember a couple of years ago flying in France that I had to make a stop at Le Touget because I could not make the Netherlands anymore before sun set. It was 19.50 and the airport close at 20.00. I got approval to divert and to land. Airtraffic controler gave me 5 extra minutes so I made it. There was nobody anymore on the airport only one the firer figther who helpo by parking and closed the gate.  

    

   

    

Next morning I was surprised to meet the police and I had to follow him to his office. Together with an English pilot I was his guest and he informd us that we got a ticket for a landing without customs declaration.  

    

   

    

 I could prove that I came from a airport in France so I was lucky but the  English pilot got a penalty of euro 700. Direct  to pay and cash. So I can tell yuo he was not to happy.  

    

   

    

There was no customs open that night before, there was no police and their was no airport authorities available. No excuse, he had to pay.  

    

   

    

Be carefull  

    

   

    

Hans  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

 Van: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com]Namens karelvranken

 Verzonden: donderdag 4 december 2008 23:01

 Aan: Europa List

 Onderwerp: Warning.    

Dear Europaphiles,  

    

During the month of october I received a lettre from the Belgian Federal Police notifying me that for the exit or entrance in the Shengen Countries we need to use one of the six recognised aerports in Belgium: Brussels, Antwerp, Liège, Charleroi, Ostend and Kortrijk. Offenders shall be fined....etc.  

    

Last time I was in England I coasted in at Lydd. There was nobody in the office nor police nor customs. The other times before I never saw the customs in Popham, Dunkeswell or Welshpool even when I asked for, several hours in advance with the adequate form.   

    

I never refuse a control from whatever authority, if they ask me. But why have I to pay and tell them what I will do with my small aircraft? Is this European freedom? Why were we upset in Arad (Roumania) or Forli (Italia) with this officialdom?  

    

To avoid the cost for 4 extra landings (Lydd 15£ and Kortrijk 23 Euro) or approximately 92 Euro for a one day trip to England, I suggested that they could attach an electronic stamp to my ankle like is done for prisonners in conditional liberty. They said that is only for light criminals! (Joke)  

    

Best regards,  

    

Karel Vranken, #447 F-PKRL  

    

   

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      [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Warning.

Hi! Karel, Hans and many more.  

 I have no wish to apologize for my political leanings and agree that the Europa forum is not a soap box.However our Europa aircraft allow us to transgress all borders and so the way we accomplish that it is relevant to this forum IMHO. The UK is suffering massive influxes of migrants due to our immigration controls being decimated by the EU. We have suffered terrorism for many years and it is right that our Government should be implicated in keeping a watchful eye on all parties entering and leaving, like WE have to report and get authority to travel to Channel  Islands and the Isle of Man. It is just a damn shame more isn’t done about how migrants can traverse the rest of Europe and so finish up here inflicting undue pressure on our community services infrastructure and getting free hand outs because of a failure of many other European Country’s (Sorry STATES!) for not picking up their fair share of so called asylum seekers.  

Concerning the claim that the EU is a success and has prevented any further wars I don’t recall that the British have ever perpetrated the start of hostilities in Europe in the entire 19th and 20th centuries, so IMHO the absence of hostilities isn’t down to the EU being success, less still the 14 years of unacceptable accounts audits. The fact remains that it is NOT democratic but bureaucratic in the extreme and has expanded by stealth without the consent of the people as proven by the French, Dutch, and recently Irish votes.  

I hadn’t realized that Karel’s “beef” was to do with Shengen but thought he was bemoaning European Officialdom.  

What is left of OUR controls is plainly our business. Yes I have enjoyed the convenience of entering Shengen states but it should be remembered that the British Isles are FULL for permanent residency purposes.  

.If European controls wish to make entry into specific Airfields then so be it, that’s not our problem but from where I’m standing I guess it “takes two to tango!” We have an advance notice of arrival system so I guess you really need the same rather than having specific airfields imposed. Though I do recall of a couple of “bombastic jerks” at Deuville being a damn nuisance over our late arrival once, when we were given clearance to land by their ATC who made no reminding comments about the field being shut even though we were from LaRochelle where a Customs squad almost dismantled our a/c making us late anyway, having at the same time allowed about 200 passengers from another a/c to pass without inspection!  

Now to raise the common currency question is  a political matter but I get the impression that you wouldn’t welcome me raising it on this forum however I do get “vibes” that many STATES would dearly like to return to their original currency anyway!  

Regards  

Bob Harrison  G-PTAG  

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: Warning.

Karel, We have always had to fly into a customs airfield as our first 

landing anywhere in Schengen, but it's worse than that as far as Belgium 

goes, as pretty much alone in central European countries it still insists on 

us seeking prior permission to land a permit aircraft there, which is a real 

pain! So although I have several times flown along the whole length of the 

Belgian coast I have studiously avoided landing there. Not of course that I 

have anything against Belgian pilots!

Regards, David

---

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: Warning.

Karel and David



The Belgium issue is rather worse than you suggest. A friend checked 

with the Belgium authorities prior to planning a visit to a Belgium 

Fly-in. He was advised that they did have a reciprocal agreement with 

the UK regarding accepting the UK permits. and that they would issue him 

with a Belgium permit based on his UK permit to allow him to visit the 

Fly-in. Would he please send them 80 Euro's for the Belgium permit ! ! ! 

. My friend decided that in these circumstances he would  not make the 

visit  and advised the Belgium Authorities of that decision, all was Ok 

until some weeks later he received an invoice for the Permit that was 

never issued. He is still trying to unravel this blunder, and is very 

reluctant to plan a flight any where near just in case.

Be very wary of contact with these organisations ! !.  I like David have 

travelled to Holland or France rather than make a stop in Belgium. If I 

had to make an unplanned stop for any reason I would studiously avoid 

any mention of a Permit and try and pretend that the Europa is a little 

known version of a two seat PA28.



Having said all that I have had good service from Oostende approach in 

passing through their airspace.



regards



Tim H



David Joyce wrote:

[quote] 

 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>



 Karel, We have always had to fly into a customs airfield as our first 

 landing anywhere in Schengen, but it's worse than that as far as 

 Belgium goes, as pretty much alone in central European countries it 

 still insists on us seeking prior permission to land a permit aircraft 

 there, which is a real pain! So although I have several times flown 

 along the whole length of the Belgian coast I have studiously avoided 

 landing there. Not of course that I have anything against Belgian pilots!

 Regards, David

 ---

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Warning.

80EUR for BE for an overflight permit... that's still payable!



I paid 360EUR to get an overflight permit for DK last summer. That was a trip from DK to Ukraine going through German and Poland.



The best service was from PL: 15 minutes to receive an answering e-mail with an OK. The worst was from Ukraine, but that's a different story!



Jacques.

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Warning.

David,

In the lettre, they insisted that this had nothing to do with customs. They 

are Federal Police and they insisted that you have to present you during 

their opening hours (not communicated).

Regards,

Karel Vranken

---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Warning.

Jacques,

Overflying the Belgian country with a foreign airplane and the permit of 82 

Euro is another story. The permit is valid for 30 separated days during the 

year. But than each january you have to make up a list of the past years 

flying in order to renew the permit.

Best regards and greatings to Kiew.

Karel Vranken.

---

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Warning.

Bob,



Wow !

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Though I do recall of a couple of “bombastic jerks” at Deuville being 

 a damn nuisance over our late arrival once, when we were given 

 clearance to land by their ATC who made no reminding comments about 

 the field being shut




	


Do I clearly understand that Deauville airfield was reported shut or 

closed ?

If this is the case I'm surprised, as most French airfields have no open 

or closed hours. At Deauville, as long as you comply with your 

particular rules, VFR for instance, you may land or take of f whenever 

you wish. If ATC is not available, then you must communicate in French only.

Of course there may be special occasions when an airfield has to be 

closed, but then a particular NOTAM is issued in advance.



Or maybe you were referring to Customs and immigration offices opening 

hours ?



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

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