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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Witless? Politics touches every facet of your life, particularly communism. That being the case, a politic discussion here has total merit. If we lived in a truly free country than yes, ragging on communist infiltration in our country wouldn't make sense.



 	  eldenej(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Someone (or a number of someones) has been watching too many Dirty Harry movies. There are other forums much better suited to these witless discussions; let's return to building airplanes.

?

Elden J.

xl/3300

--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Cory Emberson <bootless> wrote:



From: Cory Emberson <bootless>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 12:56 AM

Not to mention the fact that criminals prefer unarmed prey.



best,

Cory



Do not archive



ashontz wrote: 

Yeah, the gummint would LOVE everyone disarmed, that way they can more easily shove socialism (communism with patience) down everyone's throats. There's a reason the right to bear arms is allegedly protected by the Constitution, for good reason too. We're sliding down a slippery slope here in the US

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

I forgot they don't do the pledge anymore. You know what, they site the fact that it has the word God in it, but I bet you it has as much to do with the fact that it also has the word Republic in it. How many dumb-assed Americans do you know that think we actually live in a democracy, probably a lot. We don't, we live in a constitutionally limited republic, and for good reason. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. "Democracy" doesn't appear in the Declaration of Independance or the Constitution either.



 	  tigerrick(at)mindspring.c wrote: 	
		  Hi, Bill! The following is a long post, and has nothing to so with Zenith aircraft, only the ability to continue to fly them in the US.



Rather than respond with "what's wrong with socialism," I'd prefer to answer with "what's right with America." I'm old enough to remember having good public schools, where kids with disruptive social problems were not allowed in the classroom, we recited the pledge every morning, and had comprehensive classes on American history that showcased the ideals that created this unique country.



If I recall correctly, America was founded on religious freedom, personal responsibility, and unlimited opportunity. The government was by the people, not a king or dictator. The citizens themselves determined their futures through their representitives, who would leave their own farms or businesses for a few years, serve their constituents, and then return to their homes. Career politicians hadn't been invented yet.



America has long been a burr under the saddle of many communist and socialist countries, attracting immigrants from all over the world who trade everything for a single shot at what our citizens all too often take for granted. America could never be conquered by foreign military force, so there's been a constant undermining of traditional American values and our unique culture over the past 50 years instead.



And every time we've embarked on some new shiny leftist government program that promises to be the solution to our social ills, we've dug ourselves deeper and deeper into debt and social unrest. Be it LBJ's Great Society, Affirmative Action, the American Disabilities Act, Women's Liberation, Gay Liberation, the Community Reinvestment Act, the EPA, the NEA, or even the TSA, we've only succeeded in removing the commonality we once felt as proud Americans and divided Americans into balkanized victim/grievance groups who now view each other with distrust. And our government, who we've traditionally had faith in to be fair and even handed, now views its citizens as mere rabble, whose only value is as a source of income and votes every now and then. Every time I stand in an airport security line, I wonder about the promise of "innocent until proven guilty." Now it's the other way around.



It's sad. The whole point of the civil rights movement in the mid 60s was to make race a non-issue. Instead, we've made race, gender, ethnic or religious backgrounds, sexual orientation, and handicaps bargaining chips for societal handouts. Toss in the hugely divisive Vietnam war, media glorification of thuggery, several generations of kids who've been dumbed down and robbed of their proud heritage in public schools, and we have a country at odds with itself, ripe for the pickin'.



But there's still a few of us left who will not go along quietly. We know that the second amendment is the one that guarantees all the others, we know that the responsibility of personal safety and defense cannot be subcontracted out, and we know that this country belongs to its citizens. It is not a plaything for those who fancy themselves smarter or better that the people they purport to "serve."



Americans are richly blessed to have inherited a legacy of freedom that their forefathers have bled and died for. And it's up to us to protect it, and hand it down to our children and their children.



I'll take an imperfect free America over perfect socialism any day. The sovereignty of the individual Amercian is priceless.



Aim small, miss small.



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP



    --

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

True, there is no pure capitalism. Pure socialism is another matter, requiring a totally dependent society on a dictator,  monarch, or ruling cabal. It's been tried before with disastrous results.



Whether fears about increasing socialism (requiring some loss of freedom) are "irrational" or not depends on your perspective, I guess. You asked why fear socialism, and the reason is that it requires that someone else surrender something (usually against their will). What is freedom, anyway? There can be no freedom without property rights, which includes the right to keep what you've earned through your own industry.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I've seen, every time we embrace some new socialistic program that allows us to feel better about ourselves for some brief period of time, the societal costs are just too high. Our government has no business taking by force from one to give to another outside of what's conceded by the Constitution (and thereby insuring their own political careers). I have no problem with charitable giving and public service programs, but this should be the province of churches and private community service organizations. When you rob from Peter to give to Paul, Paul will for sure vote for you again. Maybe Peter will too, if you convince him that it's for his own good.


	


Socialism is based on the theory that someone else knows better than you do how to manage your affairs and your personal effects. It also assumes that societal power properly resides with those who rule, instead of sparingly granted from the citizenry.



I can't think of two better reasons to reject socialism, and those who would enslave us further with it.



Rick



--

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Well, I get my aluminum foil (tin is too hard to come by these days) from Costco, big industrial rolls for cheap! It works just as well as tin, assuming you keep the shiny side out when you make your hat.



I assume you've read "State of Fear" by the late Michael Crichton?



Absolutely nails the global warming fraud for what it is, he does!



Loading up on incandescents,



Rick



--

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

I'd like to weigh-in on this discussion!



I remember the days of being a kid -- when we took guns to school for show and tell, trade, barter, etc... Now a kid will wind up in jail for mentioning that he/she has a gun.  



The same goes for drinking, a kid can be 18 and put his life on the line for his country, but if he is caught in the vicinity of an open alcoholic beverage -- he/she is punished.



Oh how I miss the days of old!



I think the pendulum has swung to far and it is time for it to come back.



Now I'm stepping off my soap box and going back to flying



I'll recommend that you carry a weapon as part of your survival gear -- especially in the wide open spaces or mountainous areas of the West.  You may need it to supply nourishment! 



Mack 

601XL N990MK

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

But pure socialism is not what this country is moving toward in any shape of form. That will be an irrational fear because it won't happen here in America.



When it comes to European style socialism, most of the fear are based in misconceptions about their system and exaggeration of their disadvantages. 



My point all along have not been that their system is better and we should move to that model. My point is that it does not justify the fear and contempt that some people express. 

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question -  Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 1:59 PM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Lindstrom

<tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



True, there is no pure capitalism. Pure socialism is another matter, requiring

a totally dependent society on a dictator,  monarch, or ruling cabal. It's

been tried before with disastrous results.



Whether fears about increasing socialism (requiring some loss of freedom) are

"irrational" or not depends on your perspective, I guess. You asked

why fear socialism, and the reason is that it requires that someone else

surrender something (usually against their will). What is freedom, anyway? There

can be no freedom without property rights, which includes the right to keep what

you've earned through your own industry.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I've seen, every time we embrace some new socialistic program

that allows us to feel better about  ourselves for some brief period of time, the
	


societal costs are just too high. Our government has no business taking by force

from one to give to another outside of what's conceded by the Constitution

(and thereby insuring their own political careers). I have no problem with

charitable giving and public service programs, but this should be the province

of churches and private community service organizations. When you rob from Peter

to give to Paul, Paul will for sure vote for you again. Maybe Peter will too, if

you convince him that it's for his own good.



Socialism is based on the theory that someone else knows better than you do how

to manage your affairs and your personal effects. It also assumes that societal

power properly resides with those who rule, instead of sparingly granted from

the citizenry.



I can't think of two better reasons to reject socialism, and those who

would enslave us further with  it.



Rick



--

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Forgive the ignorance of another barbaric American, but doesn't  Switzerland, the only European country never to have been invaded, REQUIRE that  all able bodied men own a rifle?  However, fear not--- we Americans, having  done it twice before,  can still remember how to liberate Europe. But the  question is, will we, or will Europe have to free itself next time, armed with a  bag of high quality hash, a bottle of Pilsener, and a pack of  Galoises?  I remember as a kid telling my uncle I was taking French in  school, and he told me he knew all the French an American needed to know: "Ou  sont les Allemagnes?"

  

 OK. let the flames (flambeaux) begin! On second thought, let me add a  little gasoline--The only people ever brought to this country against their will  were the Africans. So how come there's more Europeans here than black  people?

  

 And now, back to the original question. I wouldn't bother with a handgun  among the survival supplies. You can get a very nifty collapsible .22 - .410  over-and-under survival rifle (Remington, I think) for a couple of hundred  bucks, which weighs very little, and is good out to 100 yards.

  

 OK, prepare to flame,-----wait for it,-------FLAME!

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Rick,

  

 I have read regularly your emails over the period I have been on the list (two plus years), as well as the building articles in Kitplanes, nearly all of which have been interesting and, on occasion, constructively helpful. You are someone who seems to know airplanes generally, the 601 more particularly; it is that competence which I respect. But your most-recent posts illustrate my earlier suggestion that we take discussions such as this to some other forum. Someone has observed that while we are certainly entitled to our individual opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts. Your earlier description of America's past contains much that seems simply in error while leaving out whatever does not easily fit. And here, citing Crichton as an authority on atmospheric warming, you repeat the difficulty.

  

 I look forward to further discussion regarding issues about which you seem well-informed; soicialism and economic history, however, are not among them.

  

 Elden J.



--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 [quote]From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 3:06 AM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>  Well, I get my aluminum foil (tin is too hard to come by these days) from Costco, big industrial rolls for cheap! It works just as well as tin, assuming you keep the shiny side out when you make your hat.  I assume you've read "State of Fear" by the late Michael Crichton?  Absolutely nails the global warming fraud for what it is, he does!  Loading up on incandescents,  Rick  --

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

See you missed some classes history, there were people Scotland and Ireland  sold in Georgia, believed they were POWs but not sure.  Jerry of GA   DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 12/8/2008 3:37:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  paulrod36(at)msn.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  OK.    let the flames (flambeaux) begin! On second thought, let me add a little    gasoline--The only people ever brought to this country against their will were    the Africans. So how come there's more Europeans here than black  people? 	




Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM, Bebo, Facebook, and MySpace pa=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000012">The NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

BobCollins

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Sunnyvale CA USA

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Ricks description of socialism is excellent. Please read and reread 

until it sinks in.



Bob Collins

750 Plans

Rick Lindstrom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



   

<snip>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Socialism is based on the theory that someone else knows better than you do how to manage your affairs and your personal effects. It also assumes that societal power properly resides with those who rule, instead of sparingly granted from the citizenry.



 I can't think of two better reasons to reject socialism, and those who would enslave us further with it.



 Rick

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

How long did it take to free the people that were being held on that  train 

in that safe country of holland , a few years back??, and how many were 

killed in the process of getting freeded?? Guns dont kill people, People 

kill people . N101HD      do not archive

---

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Rick,you hit the nail on the head!!! Joe N101HD

---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Hi Paul,



I'm trying to keep out of the Socialism discussion, but I can't 

resist comment on your notion of survival gear.



I'm afraid most folks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a 

gun such as the one you described.  If they need to hit a small 

animal to eat they would probably go hungry.  A PLB would be a lot 

more useful for survival from an off airport landing.  It would allow 

direct communication with search and rescue folks from just about 

anywhere.  It even tells them exactly where you are calling from.



I do like the idea of keeping a small pistol handy, but there are two 

differences in this idea from your survival gun.  1)  I am a highly 

trained marksman with a pistol.  2)  It is intended for use against 

malicious people rather than defenseless small animals.



Paul

Camas, WA

do not archive



At 12:36 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  And now, back to the original question. I wouldn't bother with a 

handgun among the survival supplies. You can get a very nifty 

collapsible .22 - .410 over-and-under survival rifle (Remington, I 

think) for a couple of hundred bucks, which weighs very little, and 

is good out to 100 yards.

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Elden, Obviously you've never read Crichton's book.   It's loaded with factual data confirming what he's written, but liberals like  yourself never let the facts get in the way of or own beliefs or  agenda.

  

 Randy

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Elden:



Thanks for the kind words regarding my KP contributions over the years, I'm pleased you found them worth reading.



I didn't realize that you and I were having a personal discussion about guns, socialism, and the like. Bill D. posed a question and I gave my opinion. Which is all it is, heartfelt as it may be. I have never claimed to "own" facts, but my observations are based on my personal experience over the last half century.



I never claimed Crichton to be an expert, either, but I do know that his devotion to scientific method exceeded someone like, say, Al Gore (who has masterfully picked and chosen his data points carefully to bolster his politically charged theories).



I won't be offended in the slightest if you completely dismiss anything I write outside of aviation subjects. But I have been living and observing twice as long as I've been flying, so forgive me if the reality of my experiences don't neatly overlay with your own.



Best,



Rick



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

OK, my three cents:   Its a fact that A4 rivets have a spacing of 20mm in 

most cases.  The A5 has a 40 mm spacing however.

Im still waiting if any of yous can help me with my fuel tank problem.



SW

---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Have you ever tried to fly a GA airplane in Europe?



[quote]

 --

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Yes, Randy, I have; I teach this stuff. Your response helps explain why I am not interested in anything (on this forum) beyond building my xl.

  

 Elden



--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Randy <rpf(at)wi.rr.com> wrote:



 [quote]From: Randy <rpf(at)wi.rr.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 6:17 AM



    Elden, Obviously you've never read Crichton's book.  It's loaded with factual data confirming what he's written, but liberals like yourself never let the facts get in the way of or own beliefs or agenda.

  

 Randy

  

 Do not archive

 [quote] ---

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Rick,

 

Your reply (rather unlike your earlier invocation of Crichton) has the kind of temperate quality that I can respect, if not agree with.

 

I saw your xl in Cloverdale right after Woody Hays delivered it: beautiful!

 

Elden

 

--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 6:18 AM




<tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



Elden:



Thanks for the kind words regarding my KP contributions over the years, I'm

pleased you found them worth reading.



I didn't realize that you and I were having a personal discussion about

guns, socialism, and the like. Bill D. posed a question and I gave my opinion.

Which is all it is, heartfelt as it may be. I have never claimed to

"own" facts, but my observations are based on my personal experience

over the last half century.



I never claimed Crichton to be an expert, either, but I do know that his

devotion to scientific method exceeded someone like, say, Al Gore (who has

masterfully picked and chosen his data points carefully to bolster his

politically charged theories).



I won't be offended in the slightest if you completely dismiss anything I

write outside of aviation subjects. But I have been living and observing twice

as long as I've been flying, so forgive me if the reality of my experiences

don't neatly overlay with your own.



Best,



Rick



--

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Non building related Question - Hand guns

Rick,

 

Your reply (rather unlike your earlier invocation of Crichton) has the kind of temperate quality that I can respect, if not agree with.

 

I saw your xl in Cloverdale right after Woody Hays delivered it: beautiful!

 

Elden

 

--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Non building related Question - Hand guns

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 9, 2008, 6:18 AM




<tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



Elden:



Thanks for the kind words regarding my KP contributions over the years, I'm

pleased you found them worth reading.



I didn't realize that you and I were having a personal discussion about

guns, socialism, and the like. Bill D. posed a question and I gave my opinion.

Which is all it is, heartfelt as it may be. I have never claimed to

"own" facts, but my observations are based on my personal experience

over the last half century.



I never claimed Crichton to be an expert, either, but I do know that his

devotion to scientific method exceeded someone like, say, Al Gore (who has

masterfully picked and chosen his data points carefully to bolster his

politically charged theories).



I won't be offended in the slightest if you completely dismiss anything I

write outside of aviation subjects. But I have been living and observing twice

as long as I've been flying, so forgive me if the reality of my experiences

don't neatly overlay with your own.



Best,



Rick



--

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