Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Dead stick practice
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

I have lately begun to think that all this talk of dead stick  

practice (6 months ago or so) may have some merit after all, so today  

after installing my new (same size) prop, I went for a flight. My  

hangar mate and his wife were out flying, and after meeting them for  

a late lunch, we took off again...me to log some more time, and he to  

return to the hangar. I told him I'd hang nearby in case he needed  

help putting it away. Feeling the need for something out of the  

ordinary, I hung around over our strip at about 6,000' MSL  

(5,000'AGL), and when he landed, I radioed him to see if he could see  

me. He reported that I stuck out like a sore thumb. I told him I was  

going to cut the engine and bring it in. I had to point it up to  

actually get the prop to stop, and it was nice and quiet for awhile.  

Then I heard a radio call that someone was east of Napoleon (3NP),  

inbound for a landing on 27. I made my presence known, telling the  

guy that I was at 5,700' and dead stick. He replied that he would be  

on the lookout for me, and added "Good luck."  I thanked him, but  

assured him that this was a voluntary dead stick, and I'd be heading  

for a strip 2 miles SE of Napoleon. I didn't get a reply...he was  

probably thinking "dumb sh--, probably another Jabiru driver, and  

needs the practice."  Of course he was right. So I'm bringing it  

home, circling the field, losing it a couple of times along the way,  

finding it on the GPS, then in "person", and at about 3000' started  

to get serious about paying attention to where I was. It all went  

beautifully, and I made another 360° turn at about 1000' AGL, then,  

flaps at half-mast, I slipped it down to what felt right, and it  

seemed like I was a bit short, so I pointed it down, got some speed  

up and made the field with plenty to spare, landing about 1/3 of the  

way down the 1700' field. As soon as I was basically stopped, just  

rolling, I refired the engine, which didn't act as if it knew it had  

been stopped, and taxied to the hangar. My friend asked if I  

chickened out on the dead stick, and I said no way, and his wife told  

him she saw the prop stopped for as long as she could see the plane,  

almost. (His eyes must be as bad as my hearing) That was a lot of  

fun, and I plan on doing more, now that I know that the engine will  

start so easily.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 I had to point it up to actually get the prop to stop


	


Hum, my prop always stops when I switch out the magnetos, Lynn. With the Rans I was trained on, and a Rotax 912, I needed a bit of nose-up but not with the Jabiru. Perhaps that's because I fly slower than you and ... do my dead stick only on long final, knowing that I have enough altitude to make the runway.

On the other hand, I always land smoother when without engine. Not sure why. Could be that I am more concentrated ... white knuckles  ... beads of sweat on my forehead 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as a PAX



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Maybe it's my superb engine-building talents, Michel. : )  that makes  

the engine so free that it free-wheels. Either that or the freakin'  

rings are worn out already! On the other hand, I've yet to point it  

anywhere near straight down to try to restart the engine. Maybe I'll  

try that one of these days....

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

On Dec 11, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> I had to point it up to actually get the prop to stop

 Hum, my prop always stops when I switch out the magnetos, Lynn.  

 With the Rans I was trained on, and a Rotax 912, I needed a bit of  

 nose-up but not with the Jabiru. Perhaps that's because I fly  

 slower than you and ... do my dead stick only on long final,  

 knowing that I have enough altitude to make the runway.

 On the other hand, I always land smoother when without engine. Not  

 sure why. Could be that I am more concentrated ... white  

 knuckles  ... beads of sweat on my forehead 

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as a PAX

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hi Lynn C  Just curious C how did the plane fly/glide with the engine off C as compared to a 1000 RPM or so descent.  Thanks C  Jim Chuk



[quote] From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Dead stick practice

 Date: Fri C 12 Dec 2008 11:17:00 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 Maybe it's my superb engine-building talents C Michel. : ) that makes 

 the engine so free that it free-wheels. Either that or the freakin' 

 rings are worn out already! On the other hand C I've yet to point it 

 anywhere near straight down to try to restart the engine. Maybe I'll 

 try that one of these days...

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 595+ hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 

 

 

 

 On Dec 11 C 2008 C at 5:35 PM C Michel Verheughe wrote:

 

 >> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 >> I had to point it up to actually get the prop to stop

 >

 > Hum C my prop always stops when I switch out the magnetos C Lynn. 

 > With the Rans I was trained on C and a Rotax 912 C I needed a bit of 

 > nose-up but not with the Jabiru. Perhaps that's because I fly 

 > slower than you and ... do my dead stick only on long final C 

 > knowing that I have enough altitude to make the runway.

 > On the other hand C I always land smoother when without engine. Not 

 > sure why. Could be that I am more concentrated ... white 

 > knuckles ... beads of sweat on my forehead 

 >

 > Cheers C

 > Michel Verheughe

 > Norway

 > Kitfox 3 - Ja==============

 

 

 

Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that.  Get your Hotmail® account now.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hi Jim-

It flew really well...I wished I had noted the time it took to get it  

down. I wasn't in any hurry to get down, so I just let it glide in a  

large spiral that was pretty flat. Next time I'll spend some time  

looking at numbers and jotting stuff down. I've got to go and re- 

torque the prop now, and not sure if the weather will hold for  

another shot at it, but if I do go up, I'll get some numbers.  

Yesterday was just a spur of the moment thing, and I never thought  

about recording some info.

My hunch is that it would glide further with engine off, as they say  

an idling engine is a drag...no pun intended.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 12, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Lynn,  Just curious, how did the plane fly/glide with the engine  

 off, as compared to a 1000 RPM or so descent.  Thanks,  Jim Chuk



 > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 > Subject: Re: RE: Dead stick practice

 > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:17:00 -0500

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 >

 > Maybe it's my superb engine-building talents, Michel. : ) that makes

 > the engine so free that it free-wheels. Either that or the freakin'

 > rings are worn out already! On the other hand, I've yet to point it

 > anywhere near straight down to try to restart the engine. Maybe I'll

 > try that one of these days....

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

 > Sensenich 62x46

 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition

 > system;

 > also building a new pair of snow skis

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Dec 11, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 >

 > >> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

 > >> I had to point it up to actually get the prop to stop

 > >

 > > Hum, my prop always stops when I switch out the magnetos, Lynn.

 > > With the Rans I was trained on, and a Rotax 912, I needed a bit of

 > > nose-up but not with the Jabiru. Perhaps that's because I fly

 > > slower than you and ... do my dead stick only on long final,

 > > knowing that I have enough altitude to make the runway.

 > > On the other hand, I always land smoother when without engine. Not

 > > sure why. Could be that I am more concentrated ... white

 > > knuckles ... beads of sweat on my forehead 

 > >

 > > Cheers,

 > > Michel Verheughe

 > > Norway

 > > Kitfox 3 - Ja==============

 >

 >

 >



 Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. Get your Hotmail®  

 account now._- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hey Lynn,

 I don't remember from previous posts, but I reckon you guys have plenty 

of skills flying dead stick and know how to manage altitude and 

airspeed. I'd just like to mention that getting a glider rating was one 

of the best things I think I ever did as a pilot. It was a lot of fun 

and improved my seat of the pants skill significantly. Further benefits 

are it is pretty cheap for getting another rating and takes care of a 

flight review requirement. Highly recommended!



Rex Hefferan

Colorado, Model 2, 582

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

I'm pretty new to dead stick landings, Rex, having only made  

two...yesterday, and the emergency one last fall. I've killed the  

engine at altitude before, but always started it up for landing.  

Would the glider rating also benefit Sport Pilots?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 12, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Rexinator wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Lynn,

 I don't remember from previous posts, but I reckon you guys have  

 plenty of skills flying dead stick and know how to manage altitude  

 and airspeed. I'd just like to mention that getting a glider rating  

 was one of the best things I think I ever did as a pilot. It was a  

 lot of fun and improved my seat of the pants skill significantly.  

 Further benefits are it is pretty cheap for getting another rating  

 and takes care of a flight review requirement. Highly recommended!



 Rex Hefferan

 Colorado, Model 2, 582

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Just my two cents for worth it is worth. Dead stick is good but do not

expect the same sink rate with an engine out, especially if you have a

freewheeling prop with a sprag clutch or similar. Your glide will be

significantly be reduced and a greatly increased sink rate will occur.

If the prop stops or you can stop the prop, then you will be in a better

performance envelope. Just the engine at idle helps more than you might

think. This is from personal experience not something I heard. 

Rick

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

I'm sure it would benefit anyone. When I was learning to fly I would 

read all kinds of stuff and I remember reading about top WW2 European 

fighter pilots had started out in gliders as civilians. It seemed to be 

a common thing that they claimed as a basis to help them achieve their 

skills. I've also read accounts of accomplished pilots who improved 

their skills overall from learning related flying techniques. For 

instance our own Kurt Schrader who for those who don't know was a ex 

Marine jet fighter pilot and retired as a 757 pilot after a 2nd career 

as a professional pilot reported on this list that his demonstrated 

skills handling a certain emergency simulation noticeably improved from 

flying his Kitfox tail dragger. Tail Dragger time was the only 

experience change he had between proficiency checks.

 I can say from my own experience that I felt more in control when I 

once had a engine out on long final and found myself suddenly flying a 

gliding Cessna. I landed without further incident on the runway. I 

probably would have made the runway anyway, but I know my glider rating 

made it much simpler to do.

Rex

Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I'm pretty new to dead stick landings, Rex, having only made 

 two...yesterday, and the emergency one last fall. I've killed the 

 engine at altitude before, but always started it up for landing. Would 

 the glider rating also benefit Sport Pilots?

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 595+ hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 On Dec 12, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Rexinator wrote:

> 

>

> Hey Lynn,

> I don't remember from previous posts, but I reckon you guys have 

> plenty of skills flying dead stick and know how to manage altitude 

> and airspeed. I'd just like to mention that getting a glider rating 

> was one of the best things I think I ever did as a pilot. It was a 

> lot of fun and improved my seat of the pants skill significantly. 

> Further benefits are it is pretty cheap for getting another rating 

> and takes care of a flight review requirement. Highly recommended!

>

> Rex Hefferan

> Colorado, Model 2, 582

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

That's an important point that's good to know, but it's also good to 

have experienced it under controlled circumstances. So I say get with an 

instructor and learn from you own experience in your own Kitfox. And 

like Lynn plans to do, please report what you find with real numbers 

before and after so the rest of us might get a feel for what differences 

to expect in case we don't get around to doing in our own aircraft. Of 

course everyone must note the vital importance of the differences each 

homebuilt aircraft configuration might have even if they are the same 

model and engine.



Rex

Rick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  Just my two cents for worth it is worth. Dead stick is good but do not

 expect the same sink rate with an engine out, especially if you have a

 freewheeling prop with a sprag clutch or similar. Your glide will be

 significantly be reduced and a greatly increased sink rate will occur.

 If the prop stops or you can stop the prop, then you will be in a better

 performance envelope. Just the engine at idle helps more than you might

 think. This is from personal experience not something I heard. 

 Rick

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Dead sticks?   I  have done many... on purpose ... so far  )



my strip is only 750 feet and it greatly enhances your confidence.

Yes a windmilling prop creates conciderable more  drag..  Something to 

ponder:  Best L/D is around 1.6 vso and min sink around 1.2 vso. and 

for best distance go faster than vso in a headwind and less than vso 

with a tailwind. remember stall speed is weight related and whatever 

speeds you choose leave enough speed for flair.  Our light planes 

decelerate quickly....    start practicing at a long enough runway to 

forgive ur mistakes as you learn  your plane....it takes time and enjoy 

  lastly if you shut down do so with the mindset it won't start.  First 

because it might not and its very distracting trying to crank on short 

final.

Dave  ( just one KFer opinoin!)

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

I am glad gliders were brought up here.  I contend that part of your test

phase should have been to determine best speed for best glide ratio and best

speed for lowest sink rate with the prop stopped.  I did.  



Getting a rating for glider used to be much easier that a power rating.  I

think the minimum age was 14 versus 16 for power rating.  I am not sure that

those are still the right age minimums.  It is much easier when you KNOW you

are going to land.  And the experience is good for your confidence.  



I haven't actually landed dead stick with a passenger, but I do enjoy

shutting down the engine and showing them that the plane doesn't fall from

the sky.  Most really enjoy the quiet once they realize that very little has

changed except the noise level.  I usually get 8 - 10 mins glide time before

I hit the start button.  The engine really starts quick with the wind

helping.  And I always have a "just in case" field pre-selected when I kill

the mags.



Before you do this, consider any shock cooling issues you may have with your

engine.  The air is still going through the cooling paths albeit slower and

your engine may be hot from climbing hard.



Randy

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

For those Canucks out there or others who may remember the "Gimli Glider" occurrence.  An Air Canada 767 was en-route from Ottawa to Edmonton when it ran out of fuel over Manitoba in ??? 1983???    Without going into details, the pilot landed the aircraft on an abandoned airstrip at Gimli Manitoba dead stick.   As it turns out, the pilot did some things with the aircraft (cross control forward slips and such) that Boeing said could not be done.  

He had extensive experience as a glider pilot.  I suspect there is no greater testimonial to spending some time on gliders than this....

Cheers'

Ken

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

hlang(at)bluewin.ch
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hi all  

I did record a glide without running engine and calculatet a ratio of 12. The weight of the aircraft was around 470kg.  

   

Heinz Lang  

Kitfox 4-1200, 582  

   

       [quote][b]

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Lynn,

  I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)

                                                              Dick Maddux

                                                              Fox 4-1200

                                                              912UL

                                                              Pensacola,Fl



One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Dick,  

I am glad you mention glider training.  Gliders are safer than power planes and with gliders every landing is “Dead Stick”.  So it can’t be that dead stick landing are inherently dangerous.  

   

All pilots should get some glider training.  

   

Randy  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:29 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Dead stick practice  

  

     

Lynn,  

    

 I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)  

    

                                                             Dick Maddux  

    

                                                             Fox 4-1200  

    

                                                             912UL  

    

                                                             Pensacola,Fl  

  

 <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>          

  

  

One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.  

   	  Quote: 	
		           -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click onthe Contribution link below to find out more aboutthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		  	
1 	  Quote: 	
		  	
2 	  Quote: 	
		  	
3

       [quote][b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

I respect what you have to say, Dick, and I'll take it under  

advisement. Let's see what others have to say on the subject...and  

I'll also see what my flight instructor says when I tell him what I  

did. I know that 6 months ago, to maybe a year, there was a lot of  

talk here about *doing* them, and I thought the consensus was that it  

was a good thing. I know that at the time, I hadn't done any, and  

thought that at that time these guys were nuts...kinda like the old  

saying "why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good  

airplane?"  (sky diving) Thanks for speaking up.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,

  I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old  

 lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected  

 someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing  

 deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an  

 example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to  

 practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over  

 the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his  

 airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If  

 something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't  

 start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox.  

 All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on  

 my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first  

 bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first  

 dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which  

 occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one  

 to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the  

 grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and  

 flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too  

 many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you  

 alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will  

 absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more  

 about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training  

 will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over  

 mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I  

 am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to  

 shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched  

 his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)

                                                              Dick  

 Maddux

                                                              Fox  

 4-1200

                                                              912UL

                                                               

 Pensacola,Fl



 One site keeps you connected to all your emailw- 

 dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

Hi Guys,



In all my planes I practice full dead stick landings. You can do a dead stick in just about any aircraft within reason. What is going to happen when you loose an engine and on top of that you have to hit a specific landing spot? It will be Ouch time. Many CFI's are afraid of real dead stick landings because they have never done them. I always get a kick when I have a new CFI with me and turn off the engine. Talk about freaking out. The plane lands just like always and sometimes better for a lot of people. After you have done a few, the first is always harder on the nerves, but that goes away when you see how much control you really have, you should then practice hitting a spot on the field. Engine outs are never convenient over the field and you never seem to have a 4'K runway either. After a few dead sticks you may want to go up to an altitude like 8k-10K and turn off the engine and just glide around for a while.



Learning dead stick landings can be the best thing you can do for yourself in case of an emergency and it can be fun. Start with doing them on final and you know you have the field made or go up high like 8K and glide around for a while, near a field, and then do a re-start just to get the feel of no engine maneuvering. Just remember to  always keep at least landing approach speed until you are comfortable. I will go up, go dead stick and practice hard stalls and it is fun. After you get good you will be able to judge distance better on longer glides or just stick with the ones on finial approach. You are right in assuming that you don't get to do a go around one landing only. If your landings are general not good to start with then wait until you can do all good landings.  If you do good landings you shouldn't have any issues.



Old time Ultralight guys are not afraid of dead sticks as it happened to everyone at one time or another in the old days. Now it's just fun. We used to put on games for the Ultralight's and one of the events was to be dead stick when you turned final. These guys got so good that if you couldn't put your mains within 5' of a line you weren't in the top 3-5 finishers.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training. I also cringe at the idea of trying to gain experience at dead stick flying before some proper training. 

 One of the most important skills gliding teaches is understanding and managing your glide energy. Weather and air currents are about equally important and as a powered plane pilot you are not as concerned as you must be when gliding. Terrain features become another vital aspect of gliding that can be very helpful to powered flight. 

 If nothing else, get a sailplane flight instruction book and study this wonderful realm of flight.



Rex

Colorado M2 582

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans(at)gmail.com] 

 I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting 

 glider training.


	


To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I switched off the engine.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum