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rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead stick 

practice safely.  

Rex

Do not archive

Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans(at)gmail.com] 

> I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting 

> glider training.

>     

 To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I switched off the engine.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've  

crossed the threshold? I say this with the understanding of the  

landing procedure that comes with nearly 600 hrs of flying and way  

over 1000 landings (I haven't totaled up my logbook in ages) I feel  

that the real skill in a dead stick landing comes from battling the  

winds aloft, if there are any, and getting the seat-of-the-pants  

feel, and three dimensional view of your world at say 500-1000 feet  

up. At least this is what I used in my (1) emergency dead stick last  

fall, and (2) my "pretend" emergency dead stick just the other day.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Rexinator wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead  

 stick practice safely.  



 Rex

 Do not archive



 Michel Verheughe wrote:

>> From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans(at)gmail.com] I feel I should clarify  

>> that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training.

>>

>

> To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my  

> taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and  

> he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the  

> best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ...  

> with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was  

> on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when  

> I switched off the engine.

>

> Cheers,

> Michel Verheughe

> Norway

> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've  

 crossed the threshold?


	


That was only the first time, Lynn. Now, I do it from long approach. But I agree with Rex that we should be careful and it's up to each pilot to know what is the frame of security. For example, I feel that if I voluntary switch off the engine, I should be able to land safely without needing to restart the engine. Most of the time, it will restart but ... you never know.



A few weeks ago, I flew with my son and it was a typical winter inversion: no wind on the windsock. But once over 500 ft AGL, a strong northerly wind. We flew first southward at about 90 knots ground speed, and only 40 on the return leg. When we arrived on final 36, I said to my son: Aren't we a bit high? He said: not in that wind, we might even add a bit of throttle. And guess what, we needed it to reach the threshold!



Something else I wanted to do is to fly over a very big lake we have here, switch off the engine at say 4,500 ft (under our TMA) and glide down, using the entire frozen lake as a landing place. But, unfortunately the lake hasn't been freezing enough those last years.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hmm - not sure I agree with this one. However it depends upon location. When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would switch of at about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and practice my spot landings. It was great practice and i was amazed how far I was out when I first started. 

 

After a while it became very easy to control my descent and use slips etc to land "on the numbers". 

 

The only caveat here is I had  basically unlimited area to land and if I landed long or short it made no difference 

 

I learned a lot from that! 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

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Catz631(at)aol.com 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

14/12/2008 01:05 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Dead stick practice 

     

 

 

 

Lynn, 

 I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine) 

                                                             Dick Maddux 

                                                             Fox 4-1200 

                                                             912UL 

                                                             Pensacola,Fl 



 

  

 One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com. 

[b]

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

The way I see it, any way you do it you are taking a risk.  



Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save himself, his passenger, and his aircraft when the engine decides to quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance.  



On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient.  The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell.  



My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I wouldn't do it on a 1700' field.  I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for.  If I run out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short.  If I'm too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy.  



Great topic for discussion.  Thanks Lynn.

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

 Lynn C Do you usually slip in when dead sticking to keep plenty of speed. If your gliding in from a distance at a slow speed and misjudge C you can run out of energy. 1700' might not sound like alot of runway. But C with a plane that can be landed in a few hundred feet C 1700' is quite a long field as long as your using the whole runway. Most of my flight has been in an ultralite that stalled at 19 mph. You never worried about not enough runway. As a matter of fact C you could do as many touch and goes on 1 landing as you wanted to on almost any field.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 From: dmivezic(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Sat C 13 Dec 2008 18:38:07 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "crazyivan" <dmivezic(at)yahoo.com>

 

 The way I see it C any way you do it you are taking a risk. 

 

 Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save himself C his passenger C and his aircraft when the engine decides to quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance. 

 

 On the other hand C killing your perfectly good engine to practice a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell. 

 

 My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy. 

 

 Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn.

 

 --------

 Dave

 Speedster 912 UL

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270

 

 

==============

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Well that's true Lynn. My comment was intended to humorously point out 

that if you were going to practice without instruction it's best to be 

very certain you will make the runway as Michel was.



 I recall a fun and challenging maneuver that my Commercial training 

included. Abeam the runway numbers throttle was reduced to idle and you 

were expected to judge your base and final turns such that you touched 

down precisely on the numbers at stall speed without adding power. The 

use of flaps was optional. If you overshot or undershot or really had to 

add power then the exercise was a fail and you did a go-around to try 

again. Of course you had to deviate considerably early from the normal 

pattern turn points, but it made you aware of how the airplane would 

perform if you suddenly lost power in the pattern. I would suggest it to 

be quite helpful as a method to practice prior to actual dead stick 

practice. This is something any instructor might have taught student 

pilots, but I don't recall practicing it until Commercial training.

  As for gliders all of them I'm aware of use spoilers during the 

standard approach so that you sink much more rapidly and must judge your 

approach to compensate for the steeper angle of decent. This method 

gives you a safety factor of reserve lift which allows you to employ the 

"spoiled lift" if you are misjudging your approach or unexpected 

conditions are encountered such as sinking air. For dead stick practice 

I think probably the best you can do is to simulate a glider procedure 

in a powered airplane by adding flaps or use slips to reduce the glide 

when you are over your intended landing site. Then you will have in 

reserve your option of retracting flaps or coming out of the slip to 

regain the best glide. Something to suggest to your instructor in case 

they only plan for engine power as a reserve safety factor during engine 

out practice..



Rex

KF2 582

Colorado



Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've 

 crossed the threshold? I say this with the understanding of the 

 landing procedure that comes with nearly 600 hrs of flying and way 

 over 1000 landings (I haven't totaled up my logbook in ages) I feel 

 that the real skill in a dead stick landing comes from battling the 

 winds aloft, if there are any, and getting the seat-of-the-pants feel, 

 and three dimensional view of your world at say 500-1000 feet up. At 

 least this is what I used in my (1) emergency dead stick last fall, 

 and (2) my "pretend" emergency dead stick just the other day.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis





 On Dec 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Rexinator wrote:



> 

>

> See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead stick 

> practice safely.  

>

> Rex

> Do not archive

>

> Michel Verheughe wrote:

>>> From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans(at)gmail.com] I feel I should clarify 

>>> that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training.

>>>

>>

>> To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my 

>> taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and 

>> he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the 

>> best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with 

>> a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a 

>> runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I 

>> switched off the engine.

>>

>> Cheers,

>> Michel Verheughe

>> Norway

>> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

On Sat, December 13, 2008 9:31 am, Rex Hefferan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider

 training. I also cringe at the idea of trying to gain experience at dead stick flying

 before some proper training.


	


When I got my first training I was fortunate to have an exceptional flight instructor.

He was a career flight instructor in the USAF and had logged more than 25,000 hours of

instructor time. At the time he was the head test pilot for the Boeing YC-14 program.

His name is Dale Ranz. He could fly absolutely anything and do it well. He told me the

first priority was safety, the second protecting the equipment and third priority was

passenger comfort. This is what he said was military practice and it differs from

commercial flight in priority where passenger comfort takes first billing. That said,

before I elaborate on what I was taught I'll digress into procedure which would apply

to any powered airplane.



Assuming you've been given the lift off speed and the climb out speed that will work

on the first take-off then you should always experimentally determine a few numbers.

You need to know the power off stall speed and the approximate power setting to

maintain flight at the traffic pattern downwind speed. All landings should be planned

for a standard traffic pattern. That is you enter midfield on a 45 deg angle to

downwind. The traffic pattern altitude and size of the traffic pattern should be

chosen to be a standard one that you always use and that should be such that if you

lost power completely at any point in the pattern, you can always make a normal

landing. In my training, normal procedure was power to idle (dead stick) when rolling

level on base. The speed would be maintained at approx 5 knots lower than downwind

speed. The when turning final, the wings rolled level, you again reduce the speed

another 5 knots. Still at idle. Your final approach speed is selected to be approx 15%

higher than stall speed for the loaded configuration you're flying. That way you can

adjust the touch down point as needed by simply raising the nose or slipping as needed

to touch down close to the thresh hold. This makes every landing a short field landing

with power to idle. The touchdown should occur right at or slightly below the stall

speed. This minimizes the transition time and distance between flying and control with

wheels and brakes.



This technique is properly performed with a noticeably impact without bouncing. This

impact absorbs a significant amount of the kinetic energy of the moving aircraft and

minimizes tire skidding with hard braking because there is little lift from the wings.



Here's where passenger comfort is placed last behind safety and protection of the

equipment. That is the military way. The commercial aircraft operation will not choose

to do it this way. They prefer power on approaches with feather weight touchdown

forces and minimum crab angles. Passengers are frightened and uncomfortable with any

sudden movements and sensations. There are examples where passenger comfort can be

facilitated with no loss of performance or safety. One practice I had developed (on a

Cherokee Arrow) was to make nearly instantaneous flap position changes. One notch of

flaps on takeoff and as soon as I reached best angle speed, I would raise the flaps -

click!



To a passenger, especially a non-pilot, this sudden change in pitch is really a rude

sensation. So, I was counciled to take 2 to 3 seconds to retract the flaps or lower

them for each notch. 20, 45 and 60 deg.



So in summary, I think best practice is to determine the traffic pattern altitude and

points to turn base and final and the speeds and always observe them. For tower

controlled airfields the normal traffic pattern altitude is 1000' AGL and for

non-controlled strips it is 800' AGL. You need to determine how far you need to be

from runway centerline on downwind, how far past the thresh hold for base and what

your ideal final approach speed should be without power.



If you do this, you will always be able to land dead stick as every landing done is

dead stick normally. The idea of a traffic pattern is to be able to land without power

at any point.



A couple of very strong points have been made about glider flying. Glider pilots learn

skills to keep them aloft for as long as possible. Often using terrain features, cloud

cover and even terrain color to keep them in an updraft more of the time than they are

in a downdraft.



Another point that has been made is that sudden engine temperature changes can shorten

the life or even break and engine. For that reason, when practicing touch and go's

people don't do them near the runway thresh hold but rather nearer midfield. They

usually don't do dead stick landings and take 3 to 4 seconds to advance the throttle

on take-off. Your reasons for practicing these could be many but smooth directional

control, crosswinds, and consistency are some of those reasons.



So, it doesn't seem fitting to me to advise people not to do dead stick landings until

they have had adequate training, since training should have been doing them from the

very start.



 	  Quote: 	
		    One of the most important skills gliding teaches is understanding and managing your

 glide energy. Weather and air currents are about equally important and as a powered

 plane pilot you are not as concerned as you must be when gliding. Terrain features

 become another vital aspect of gliding that can be very helpful to powered flight.

  If nothing else, get a sailplane flight instruction book and study this wonderful

 realm of flight.


	


That is a very solid tip, IMHO.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would switch of at 

 about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and practice my spot landings. 


	


.. Aha! Wasn't it you who gave me the idea to do the same, Gary? It all comes back to me now and my wife is wrong saying that I am senile! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX



Do not archive



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick  

(and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently  

consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor  

*stopped* dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in  

not moving)  ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not  

producing power, windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a  

seat of the pants landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal  

downwind, base, and final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not  

a factor), and glide into a wheat field, all based on previous visual  

determinations of hundreds of landings at various types of airports,  

mostly grass, with various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps,  

hills, trees, buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding  

his hand over the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the  

instructor slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to  

me (saying, "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it  

up, into undulating runways which might or might not run up or  

downhill, and which might or might not have snow on them....now,  

where was I?

..oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on  

this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I  

had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down  

after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick  

up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.

I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over  

some trees.



There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning  

coffee and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees  

at both ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with  

swamp to the south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in  

for good measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice.  

I'll slip it in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing  

18 (away from the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add  

power and float toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't  

have to taxi so far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch  

down sooner and get on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far).  

These landings usually involve getting off to the side of the runway  

after touchdown, so as to avoid the planes that are following you  

(sometimes at a safe distance even), or watching out for the already- 

landed planes, who are taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as  

many as 18 planes (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna  

150's, 170's, 172's, 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights,  

Stinsons, a Quail, Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts  

mine to shame (Hi, John May)  ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on  

skis. 



Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in"  

on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll  

give you the coordinates.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 13, 2008, at 10:10 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    Lynn, Do you usually slip in when dead sticking to keep plenty of  

 speed. If your gliding in from a distance at a slow speed and  

 misjudge, you can run out of energy. 1700' might not sound like  

 alot of runway. But, with a plane that can be landed in a few  

 hundred feet, 1700' is quite a long field as long as your using the  

 whole runway. Most of my flight has been in an ultralite that  

 stalled at 19 mph. You never worried about not enough runway. As a  

 matter of fact, you could do as many touch and goes on 1 landing as  

 you wanted to on almost any field.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



 > Subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 > From: dmivezic(at)yahoo.com

 > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:38:07 -0800

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 >

 > The way I see it, any way you do it you are taking a risk.

 >

 > Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save  

 himself, his passenger, and his aircraft when the engine decides to  

 quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance.

 >

 > On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice  

 a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and  

 proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled  

 situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes  

 to hell.

 >

 > My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I  

 wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field  

 and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run  

 out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm  

 too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy.

 >

 > Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn.

 >

 > --------

 > Dave

 > Speedster 912 UL

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19270#219270

 >

 >

 >==============

 >

 >

 >



 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Exactly....thanks, Dave.   I advocate flying into different  

airfields, strips, whatever, (as long as it's a known airfield),  

especially if it doesn't have the familiar cones, windsocks, tower,  

runway markings, etc., that key into our minds the familiar picture  

of the landing process. This helps us determine where the field  

begins and ends, and allows us to visualize those markings if we need  

them, or allows us to be able to land without those "crutches." Don't  

get me wrong, those markings are necessary for some folks, but  

practicing without them is where the real-world emergency training  

comes in.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:38 PM, crazyivan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   




	


(snip)

 	  Quote: 	
		   On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice a  

 dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient.   

 The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation  

 then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell.




	


(snip)

 	  Quote: 	
		   --------

 Dave

 Speedster 912 UL





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19270#219270

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

815TL

Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 62

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice / Soarability?

Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?  I have about 20 hours in gliders.  Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it.  So those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any thermals, or ridge soar?  The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1.  The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so quite well.   Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.



Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and search for a thermal.  Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when you are done, is big plus.



Andrew

Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Since there has been more detail here about the practice of true dead 

stick (which I should reveal I have not really practiced yet) I think I 

ought to add a bit more to the glider procedures I provided.

  In gliders for the standard landing you apply half spoilers so that 

you still can adjust your glide angle steeper or shallow it out as the 

approach progresses. Once you touch down it's full spoilers and you stay 

down. To relate that to a practice dead stick approach you might 

consider the propeller drag factor at idle that reduces your glide angle 

as similar to adding some amount of flaps.

 I think the point is to consider the possible configurations your 

aircraft may have under the conditions you might find yourself and plan 

your practice to simulate those conditions. You want to give yourself a 

way to adjust your glide so you have the best chance of reaching that 

precise point you chose for landing. Another way for example; my flight 

school taught that a certain amount of RPM equated to a stopped 

propeller at V_L/D (best Lift over Drag) so that was how we practiced 

engine out. (mostly for insurance reasons and FAA suggestions). There 

are ways to do these things with relative safety and an instructor 

should know how to figure them out. If you as a pilot are confident you 

know enough to figure them out then it is your risk as always.

 Paul offers excellent advice and I highly respect his input. I also 

highly respect Lynn who has related his experience which shows there can 

be a lot of variables to an actual emergency. Many of these are things 

we may not think of as we apply our limited knowledge into practice. 

Even the best instructor hasn't seen it all yet, but it's very unlikely 

they will be surprised by the things we might encounter. They would 

handle in stride what we might find way over our skill level. So by all 

means get your instructor to challenge your comfort level. Because of 

it, one day you might still be around to thank him. I know I'll need a 

lot of remedial training once I start flying again.



Rex

M2 582

Colorado



Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick 

 (and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently 

 consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor *stopped* 

 dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in not moving)  

 ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not producing power, 

 windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a seat of the pants 

 landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal downwind, base, and 

 final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not a factor), and glide 

 into a wheat field, all based on previous visual determinations of 

 hundreds of landings at various types of airports, mostly grass, with 

 various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps, hills, trees, 

 buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding his hand over 

 the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the instructor 

 slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to me (saying, 

 "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it up, into 

 undulating runways which might or might not run up or downhill, and 

 which might or might not have snow on them....now, where was I?

 ...oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on 

 this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I 

 had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down 

 after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick 

 up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.

 I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over some 

 trees.



 There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning coffee 

 and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees at both 

 ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with swamp to the 

 south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in for good 

 measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice. I'll slip it 

 in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing 18 (away from 

 the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add power and float 

 toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't have to taxi so 

 far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch down sooner and get 

 on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far). These landings usually 

 involve getting off to the side of the runway after touchdown, so as 

 to avoid the planes that are following you (sometimes at a safe 

 distance even), or watching out for the already-landed planes, who are 

 taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as many as 18 planes 

 (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna 150's, 170's, 172's, 

 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights, Stinsons, a Quail, 

 Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts mine to shame (Hi, John 

 May)  ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on skis. 



 Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in" 

 on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll 

 give you the coordinates.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Hey Andrew, Looks like you might be a good candidate for it. If no one 

reports first, give it a try and tell us how it went. I'd be interested 

since we have the same model and engine.



Rex

M2 582-C

Colorado



815TL wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?  I have about 20 hours in gliders.  Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it.  So those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any thermals, or ridge soar?  The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1.  The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so quite well.   Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.



 Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and search for a thermal.  Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when you are done, is big plus.



 Andrew

 Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Andrew,

I like to play glider with my series 5/7, 776 lbs.  Lowest sink rate is

about 600ft/min at 60 mph.  I have held at zero sink rate for a few minutes,

but so far have never gotten into positive territory.  I do have big tires

which can't help any.



I have talked to others who do this and some claim some success.  I really

don't believe I have hit any good thermals yet.  I usually fly in the

relatively still air early or late in the day.



I used to fly gliders in Boulder Colorado and had both good thermals and

something wave lift there.



Randy  



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Sounds like fun, Gary....you got a game plan on when you'll be back  

over here to try some more of that? And by the way, how did you get  

your Kitfox over there in Oz? I think you mentioned it, but I've  

forgotten. This would be a refresher course for others who might like  

to ship their planes.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 13, 2008, at 4:53 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hmm - not sure I agree with this one. However it depends upon  

 location. When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would  

 switch of at about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and  

 practice my spot landings. It was great practice and i was amazed  

 how far I was out when I first started.



 After a while it became very easy to control my descent and use  

 slips etc to land "on the numbers".



 The only caveat here is I had  basically unlimited area to land and  

 if I landed long or short it made no difference



 I learned a lot from that!



 Gary



 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

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 Subject

 Re: Dead stick practice



 Lynn,

  I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old  

 lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected  

 someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing  

 deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an  

 example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to  

 practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over  

 the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his  

 airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If  

 something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't  

 start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox.  

 All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on  

 my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first  

 bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first  

 dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which  

 occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one  

 to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the  

 grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and  

 flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too  

 many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you  

 alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will  

 absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more  

 about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training  

 will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over  

 mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I  

 am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to  

 shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched  

 his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)

                                                              Dick  

 Maddux

                                                              Fox  

 4-1200

                                                              912UL

                                                               

 Pensacola,Fl



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 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

I think practicing deadstick on large transport category aircraft on limited

runways...probably a bad idea.

Practicing deadstick just about anywhere you have level ground... or water

(floats ) a good idea.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 	  Dick Maddux wrote: 	
		  



Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. 

	




I could not disagree more with this statement.  With the frequency that engines quit in experimental aircraft, you should most definitely have some practice with actual deadstick landings so that you don't kill yourself or unnecessarily tear up your airplane when the engine does quit.



So you saw a guy crash his airplane trying to do a deadstick landing,  there are a lot more guys that save airplanes by having good skills when an engine failure does occur than the ONE example you talk about.   Getting all emotional over ONE isolated example that you saw go very wrong to make a statement like you did here is not what an enlightened person would do, and shows poor judgment on your part.   



You state that the military does not require pilots to practice actual deadstick landings any more is correct, you saying it is because they are too dangerous to practice is nothing short of dishonest and misrepresenting the truth.   Except for a few exceptions, all military aircraft are now turbine powered.  Turbine engines are so reliable that the threat of power failures is almost NOTHING compared to what the Kitfox community faces.  Also, given the extreme landing speeds, hydraulic systems, and characteristics of modern turbine aircraft, it would be very dangerous to practice dead stick landings.  Then again, this has NOTHING to do with practicing actual deadstick in a single engine light aircraft.  So if you have a point to make, be a little more honest than trying to say what applies to military jets also applies to Kitfox aircraft.



For those of you that do try actual engine out, be very careful, give yourself plenty of room to come up short AND go long...  I use an airport with two 5000 foot runways  at 90 degrees to practice for this.  Here is how I do this and give myself miles of extra room to land.  I set up to land in a standard pattern to runway 9.    If I find myself to low on downwind, I make a 90 degree turn from downwind to enter an immediate final to runway 18 and land... If normal, I make the full pattern to runway 9, and have a mile of runway to stop should I end up very long.  The key to safety is to have very large landing areas, and lots of options.   As with anything in aviation, if you use poor judgment, and make mistakes you can have an accident.    If you are a new pilot, or just don't have the skill to practice actual deadstick landings, get a qualified pilot to instruct you.



The LAST time you want to practice an actual engine landing is with a passenger over tight areas.  Having the motor off will is a very big shock if you have never actually experienced it before, and you are almost guaranteed to screw it up.  Practice it, and you will do a much better job in the emergency landing.   Engines in Kitfoxes fail with enough frequency that it is important to be able to deal with it confidently when it happens.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Mike,



I'm still trying to figure you out.  For a young buck with a few hours in 

your log book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS.  I 

can respect opinions, but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to 

keep quiet.  Frankly, I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in your 

posting style.  I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussions with 

some of the folks you like to diss.  I can see it now, you sitting there 

with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pilot - 18,000 

hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-777s, instructed in 

the military and for the airlines (Would you believe in real jets), 

currently a CFI and you telling him about airplanes



Sheesh



Lowell



do not archive

---

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Mike you remind me of some of the young co pilots I used to have. I didn't know whether I was going to choke them or burp them. As soon as you get the 18000 hours of flight time as I have then you can speak up. As a former Navy flight instructor, Airline flight instructor and current CFI I think I have a little knowledge of flying. I am certainly not being "dishonest or misrepresenting" anything. How many flight schools shut down the engine during practice engine outs? Not many I am sure. I have had my share of actual engine outs and dead stick landings both in military and civilian aircraft. I don't believe a Kolb ultra light falls in the same class certainly as far as speed or weight matters let alone the people you are carrying. Try shutting down a Cont or Lyc and get stuck on a compression stroke. You have to stick the aircraft on it's nose going straight down to get it started (sans a good starter) Not to perform dead stick landings is my opinion. I would hate to hear of one of our pilots "buying the farm" or destroying an aircraft because of intentionally shutting down his engine. Practice with the engine at idle. The glide engine out is fairly close to that. I know most of you guys will shut the engine down anyway and that's fine but if something were to happen and I didn't at least mention it then I would feel bad for not saying anything. And Mike, how about knocking off the personal attacks. You have an opinion and so do I. There is a lot of good useful information that takes place here and I for one enjoy it as every airplane is a new challenge with much to learn

                                                           

                                                                                                                Dick Maddux

                                                                                                                Pensacola ,Fl

 PS; Please leave Lowell Fitt alone also. He is a great guy and works very hard to supply good stuff for our airplanes and is certainly not making any money at it



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