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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

nope. they have simply taken the position that only the original buyer can get them as an upgrade. Since I am the registered owner/builder, now even the original buyer cannot buy them as a discount. Since the wing is still basically the same as before, other than the incidence increase, I am not willing to cfough up the extra hundreds of dollars to get the 650 drawings.



What really bugs me is that since you have to surrender your existing 601 serial number to trade up, they are still only committed to support the construction of one plane - and a supposedly better aircraft at that...



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:22 PM



Wow, did you to something to make them mad?  Mine just came via UPS.  You should be able to get them if ordered before the first of the year.

The gussets are about 100mm  - 110mm on a side.  They are on the first and second aileron ribs.  A right triangle on the first and an isosceles with the tip cut off on the second.

There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles.  They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel with the main spar.

Ron



On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote:

[quote]I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle)



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

Subject: Re: Simple  rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"<chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown?Read this topic online       	  Quote: 	
		  3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 	
	
	
[b]

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Ah, I see.  This is policy I don't understand. I suppose they must have there reasons.   You can still change the canopy.  My real motivation was head room, and it wasn't really clear to me that all the addition headroom in the 650 was due to the canopy change.  I'd be glad to answer any questions I can wrt the 650.  As I said in another post, I think the new plans are a bit more clear.

Ron



On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:21 PM, David Downey wrote:

[quote]nope. they have simply taken the position that only the original buyer can get them as an upgrade. Since I am the registered owner/builder, now even the original buyer cannot buy them as a discount. Since the wing is still basically the same as before, other than the incidence increase, I am not willing to cfough up the extra hundreds of dollars to get the 650 drawings.



What really bugs me is that since you have to surrender your existing 601 serial number to trade up, they are still only committed to support the construction of one plane - and a supposedly better aircraft at that...



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)> wrote:

[quote]From: Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com (rsteele(at)rjsit.com)>

Subject: Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:22 PM



Wow, did you to something to make them mad?  Mine just came via UPS.  You should be able to get them if ordered before the first of the year.

The gussets are about 100mm  - 110mm on a side.  They are on the first and second aileron ribs.  A right triangle on the first and an isosceles with the tip cut off on the second.

There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles.  They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel with the main spar.

Ron



On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote:

[quote]I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle)



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

Subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[/b] 	


	
[b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

[quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

They may be referring to it as a hinge because the "hingeless" version is actually what is called a "living hinge".



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 11:24 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



December 2008:



"these gussets are recommended for the Zodiac CH601XL..."



Thank you Zenith, thank you Jon.  



I still think an AS5 rivet or two on the inboard corner is         [quote][b]

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Picked up another Corvair block and it is different than the one I already have.  Can someone tell me what the hole below the lifters are in the attached photo?



Bill Pagan  EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote:

Corvair_Block.jpg

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alex_001

Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 61

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

gusset are to prevent similar to this

DSCF1320b.JPG

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529 Time(s)

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even talking

about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them

for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's

are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be

very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std

heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave

rivet head/flush rivet system.



I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test

assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them

apart by hand. You can quite easily. 



Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't

very strong ..." idiot's simple test.



IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally

I'd be a bit worried.



Regards,

Jeff



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not sure  

why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the dome rivet. 

 Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga  DO NOT  ARCHIVE



In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

n85ae(at)yahoo.com writes:






Well  for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even  

talking

about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will  not use them

for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are  very weak. A5's

are significantly stronger. The published specs for the  rivets - I would be

very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the  grade with the std

heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the  zenith concave

rivet head/flush rivet system.



I'd suggest if anybody  doesn't believe me, that they make a few test

assemblies, and then put on a  tough pair of gloves and try to tear them

apart by hand. You can quite  easily. 



Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm,  these ain't

very strong ..." idiot's simple test.



IF you have  something like an aileron attached with them, then personally

I'd be a bit  worried.



Regards,

Jeff

ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Without  looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets  anyway?

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Have you tried to make them fail by loading the assemblies in sheer?  

Try assembling two thin strips of aluminum with three or four A4  

rivets. Attach the end of one strip to an over head support so that  

the strips hang straight down lengthwise. Attach a weight to the other  

end of the other strip. You might be surprised to find how few rivets  

are needed to support you own weight this way. Rivets are not designed  

to be loaded in tension, they are designed to carry sheer loads.  

Assemblies designed to be loaded in tension generally use bolts to  

hold them together.



I am very confident that the A4 rivets will hold up just fine when  

they are installed according to the plans with proper edge distance  

and rivet spacing. I have been flying my Zodiac for four years and 260  

hours and have never had any of the rivets fail under normal use. I  

have test flown my airplane to the limits of its flight envelope  

during the phase 1 testing. Using larger rivets in place of the A4s  

called out in the plans will only add weight and cost to the airplane  

without making the structure significantly stronger.



See: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm and http://www.zenithair.com/images/kit-data/ht-87-1.html

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test

 assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear  

 them

 apart by hand. You can quite easily.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

boy am I terrified to post this: all the comments about the test method are certainly valid in prebuckled structures. They are meaningless for postbuckled structure. Note that there is only one aircraft designed by a major aircraft company that I know of that was designed and stressed post buckled by intent. I am not at liberty to give its name because that is priprietary information. In the event that a structure buckles or nears buckleing, then the test described, while certainly not statistically valid indeed does start to show mode - and that should be a big concern to anyone building any sheet metal, mechanically fastened airframe from any designer.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:

[quote]From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 6:38 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Bryan Martin

<bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



Have you tried to make them fail by loading the assemblies in sheer? Try

assembling two thin strips of aluminum with three or four A4 rivets. Attach the

end of one strip to an over head support so that the strips hang straight down

lengthwise. Attach a weight to the other end of the other strip. You might be

surprised to find how few rivets are needed to support you own weight this way.

Rivets are not designed to be loaded in tension, they are designed to carry

sheer loads. Assemblies designed to be loaded in tension generally use bolts to

hold them  together.



I am very confident that the A4 rivets will hold up just fine when they are

installed according to the plans with proper edge distance and rivet spacing. I

have been flying my Zodiac for four years and 260 hours and have never had any

of the rivets fail under normal use. I have test flown my airplane to the limits

of its flight envelope during the phase 1 testing. Using larger rivets in place

of the A4s called out in the plans will only add weight and cost to the airplane

without making the structure significantly stronger.



See: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm and

http://www.zenithair.com/images/kit-data/ht-87-1.html

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "n85ae"

<n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few

test
	


[quote] assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them

 apart by hand.         [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Sometimes aluminum structures that bend, change the rivet load from

shear to tension. With A4's once you get a bit of bending, then your row

of A4's become the aluminum equiv of velcro. A5's, and Solids do not

do this. The laboratory perfect shear load, is rarely the case in real life.



If you have a hinge holding an assembly on with A4's a hard shake might

be all it takes to get the rivets to start popping. (flutter for example).



Personally I think the rivets should be stronger than the metal that they

are fastening. 



Somebody mentioned A5's are heavier? You could change every A4 to

an A5 and the weight difference is probably less than what you gained 

eating over the holidays ...



Regards,

Jeff

ronpollock(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

I'm curious to know if anyone would consider the larger holes drilled,

say in using A5s in place of A4s, to cause the skin to be more prone

to tearing.



I thought on reviewing a fastener chart posted yesterday that even A4s

weren't listed for .016" skin. Biggest was A3s.



Thanks, Ron in L.A.



On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:01 AM, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Sometimes aluminum structures that bend, change the rivet load from

 shear to tension. With A4's once you get a bit of bending, then your row

 of A4's become the aluminum equiv of velcro. A5's, and Solids do not

 do this. The laboratory perfect shear load, is rarely the case in real life.



 If you have a hinge holding an assembly on with A4's a hard shake might

 be all it takes to get the rivets to start popping. (flutter for example).



 Personally I think the rivets should be stronger than the metal that they

 are fastening.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

a larger hole necessarily produces greater bearing strength as long as the edge distance is adequate. The recommended fastener sizes are for the design of a balanced joint - one that has approximately equal strength in shear (fastener failure in shear) and bearing (skin tear out) for the thinner element assembled.



That having been said, the rivet spacing is grossly above the the best balance spacing on not only the Zodiac but also most of the other designs on the market. Also, as has been pointed out previously, adding the full complement is not unacceptable and has only a minor weight impact.



I have always designed structure and repairs with the bearing failure as the clear mode of failure. At least then you know the loads that the failure will propagate at in both pre and post buckled states to within a reasonable tolerance. The other way you have to assume that the structure is loading without local deflections that load the fasteners in unstable ways - zipper mode.



David L. Downey  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA

  



--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Ron Pollock <ronpollock(at)gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ron Pollock <ronpollock(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 12:29 PM




<ronpollock(at)gmail.com>



I'm curious to know if anyone would consider the larger holes drilled,

say in using A5s in place of A4s, to cause the skin to be more prone

to tearing.



I thought on reviewing a fastener chart posted yesterday that even A4s

weren't listed for .016" skin. Biggest was A3s.



Thanks, Ron in L.A.



On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:01 AM, n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Sometimes aluminum structures that bend, change the rivet load from

 shear to tension. With A4's once you get a bit of bending, then your

row
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   of A4's become the aluminum equiv of velcro. A5's, and Solids do

not
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   do this. The laboratory perfect shear load, is rarely the case in real

life.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 If you have a hinge holding an assembly on with A4's a hard shake

might
	


[quote] be all it takes to get the rivets to start popping. (flutter for example)

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the  practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose. It was  to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength.  OPINON--Any guy  who would go to the level of detail of figuring out how to develop more strength  in a rivet, has probably extended that attention to detail to bigger things,  like spars and attach points. Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go along  with CH.

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

 [quote]   ---

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Thanks for the input Paul. After find the dome rivets I couldn't figure why  

go to the trouble. Jerry of Ga.  DO NOT ARCHIVE

 

 

In a message dated 12/24/2008 3:33:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

paulrod36(at)msn.com writes:



 

Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the  

practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose. It was  

to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength.  OPINON--Any  guy who 

would go to the level of detail of figuring out how to develop more  strength 

in a rivet, has probably extended that attention to detail to bigger  things, 

like spars and attach points. Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go  along 

with CH.

 

Paul Rodriguez

601XL/Corvair



---

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