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aerobat

Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

Since the grounding the UK have had their stress engineers and sophisticated computer software working very hard to address the situation. They have come across areas of concern that have been sent to the designer but as yet no reply is forthcoming.

Is this because he does not want to acknowledge any potential problem for fear of being sued over several wing failures ?

If there is a problem the sooner this is rectified the better - before another aeroplane for whatever causes has the wings drop off.

Rumour has it that if the designer does not respond to the LAAs very fair questions then in consultation with the FAA and European authorities the XL will be limited worldwide to the German limitations of Max 450kg ( 990lb ) VNE 97kts and no baggage.

alex_001

Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 61

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

450kg MTOW  that would mean for most 601xl that the aircraft would be a single seater plane  ( i guess 330kg empty plus 85kg pilot leaves 35kg fuel) no allowance for pax.

Do you have any more info from the LAA?



BTW i looked a year ago at the CZAW sportcruiser wings and they did not look so different from the XL wings

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

I have a few questions for you "Aerobat".



1.  Who are you, and where are you located?  Apparently you are 

ashamed of your name or just want to fool everyone without taking any 

responsibility for your stupid comments. I presume you must be in 

some Socialist or Communist country.  Also, I would guess you are not 

yet of legal age and probably don't own a Zodiac or any other airplane.



2.  Where did you get the childish notion that the whole world could 

agree on anything?  In particular, what gives you the idea that a 

plane can be grounded or limited to the same limits in every country 

of the world?



3.  Why do you continue to post such outrageous comments on the 

Zodiac list?  Surely, it is not because you think the list members 

would be happy to hear your uninformed opinions.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 03:09 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Since the grounding the UK have had their stress engineers and 

sophisticated computer software working very hard to address the 

situation. They have come across areas of concern that have been 

sent to the designer but as yet no reply is forthcoming.

Is this because he does not want to acknowledge any potential 

problem for fear of being sued over several wing failures ?

If there is a problem the sooner this is rectified the better - 

before another aeroplane for whatever causes has the wings drop off.

Rumour has it that if the designer does not respond to the LAAs very 

fair questions then in consultation with the FAA and European 

authorities the XL will be limited worldwide to the German 

limitations of Max 450kg ( 990lb ) VNE 97kts and no baggage.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics database. And guess what every single post has been about.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

Gig - Are you saying that Aerobat is really a Dingbat?  (Dingbats do use "rumor has it" as an authentic information source)

 

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 06:05:59AM -0800, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics

 database. And guess what every single post has been about.


	


Indeed. His posts have the distinct odor of troll about them. Unless and

until he provides some facts that demonstrate he's actually got a real

interest in the Zodiac as an owner or pilot, I intend to ignore him, and

suggest the rest of us do the same. We need facts, not uninformed

speculation and rumor.



If the weather ever clears in Minnesota, I'm going to go flying in my XLi,

within the limits as set by the designer and factory, not as rumored by

someone who shows no evidence that he's not, say, a competitor trying to

destroy the Zodiac's reputation so he can sell more airplanes.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

rans6andrew

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Berks, UK

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

aerobat is the only poster in this thread whose location is in the text below his name on the left side of the page.  It says UK.  Sounds good enough for me.



Just to avoid confusion I am Andrew Cattell, I am located in the UK.  I am building a 601UL.  I have been told by the LAA (email end of November) that they don't have any concerns over the the UL and HD varients.  They would not be drawn on what they might have found on the XL as it is not an issue for my build.



Reading this thread, and the others related to apparent XL wing failures, together with what they have told me directly, I would think that the LAA has found something with the XL wing but are not releasing the information to the world at large until the designer has had time to comment.  This would seem to be a reasonable courtesy.  It is for this reason that the "rumour has it" is employed.



I may be wrong, of course, but that's how it looks from my position.



Andrew.

_________________
A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503.

GBzodiflyer

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all we get back for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with you people over there , we all have flying xl s, that we built .

 when u guys get grounded or have a restriction slapped on your aircraft maybe you will see it from our point of view  

I thought aviators and builders tended to stick together.

there are  no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are still building a fix is not to much of an issue ,  If your done and flying , or not at the moment , it could be major work to tear it down again . 

grow up the name callers .



Gary

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: More on the XL grounding

Hi Gary,



I appreciate your comments and concerns.



For those of you in Europe and other "Foreign" countries, to my 

knowledge there is no way American XLs can be grounded.  There just 

isn't any authority that can do that.  The FAA could ground part 23 

certified aircraft, but the XL isn't one of those.  I refer to the 

Experimental-Amateur Built certified planes.  This might be different 

for the few AMD built planes that are indeed certified.  I have no 

idea what authority the FAA has over LSA certificated planes.



As I understand the rules situation, once an experimental 

airworthiness certificate is issued for an American plane the 

government is mostly finished with it.  It is the owner/operator who 

must decide what limits to operate that plane under.  The 

airworthiness certificate does include operating limitations, but I 

have never heard of the government here grounding an experimental 

plane or suggesting speed limits or load limits for one.  The 

limitations issued with the certificate are "Boiler Plate" ones that 

are issued without regard to the actual design model or builder of the plane.

I admit throwing a few stones at "Aerobat" over his highly 

opinionated and misinformed posts.  I hope we all try to 

differentiate between facts and opinions and label our comments appropriately.



As I mentioned earlier, folks on these lists tend to include their 

name and sometimes their location in their posts.  Anyone who is 

unwilling to include their name immediately attracts distrust.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 10:36 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all 

we get back for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with 

you people over there , we all have flying xl s, that we built .

  when u guys get grounded or have a restriction slapped on your 

 aircraft maybe you will see it from our point of view

I thought aviators and builders tended to stick together.

there are  no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are still 

building a fix is not to much of an issue ,  If your done and flying 

, or not at the moment , it could be major work to tear it down again .

grow up the name callers .



Gary

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Gig and Jay, there's the flaw in your logic. "rumor has it" has long been  discredited. "Some Say" is the more authoritative source.

  

 Merry Chistmas

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]   ---

dougsire

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

To our Zenith friends around the world,



On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commies, please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants you will find on these forums.   If it is any consolation, these tirades are usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.



I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural enhancements.



This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....).   I can understand that it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly.   We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.



Doug Sire

Billings, MT

601XL

_________________
Doug Sire 601XL
Do Not Archive

pavel569

Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 77

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

Could you be more specific?



 	  dougsire wrote: 	
		  I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural enhancements.

_________________
Pavel
CA
Zodiac 601XL
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings, fuselage, canopy done ...
"do not archive"

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

 	  dougsire wrote: 	
		  To our Zenith friends around the world,



On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commies, please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants you will find on these forums.   If it is any consolation, these tirades are usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.



I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural enhancements.



This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....).   I can understand that it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly.   We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.



Doug Sire

Billings, MT

601XL 	




First, I don't give a crap where aerobat is from. I'll be honest that I didn't even look to see. What I did look at is that he has posted 6 times to the Matronics lists and they have all been attack posts. He has never posted with a question or answer about building or flying a CH design (or any other design for that matter). 



Second, where exactly did you see this information? Could it have been in a post from an anonymous poster like aerobat? By God man if you have information share it.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:36:23AM -0800, GBzodiflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all we get

 back for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with you people

 over there , we all have flying xl s, that we built . when u guys get

 grounded or have a restriction slapped on your aircraft maybe you will see

 it from our point of view I thought aviators and builders tended to stick

 together. there are no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are

 still building a fix is not to much of an issue , If your done and flying

 , or not at the moment , it could be major work to tear it down again . 

 grow up the name callers .


	


Gary, you say "there are no bad remarks from competitors here" - but there

have indeed been such in the past. There's been a lot of mud slung at the XL

by folks who want to build up the competition and tear down the Zodiac.



The rumor was that "the FAA will restrict the XL to 450 kg and 97 knots".

First, we're talking about apples and oranges here: the American XL is

different from the European XL. The European aircraft was not designed to a

600 kg max gross in the firstplace, due to the European equivalent to the

light sport rule having that as a maximum limit. That leads to a lighter

airframe requirement. My Zodiac has an empty weight of 850 pounds (385 kg).

That would make it essentially impossible to fly with a 990 pound max gross,

especially since I weigh 200 pounds. Further, the American XL was designed

for a max gross of 1450 pounds (658 kg); its 1320 pound (600 kg) official

max gross is an artifact of the US LSA rules. In the US, I don't know if the

AD process applies to LSAs; if not, then such a directive would have to come

from AMD for factory LSA such as mine, and I'm not at all sure they'd agree

to it.



My name, aircraft registration number, and ham radio callsign are all in the

signature below. I stand behind my words, and it's easy to verify that I'm

who I say I am and that I do indeed own and fly a Zodiac XLi, N55ZC. There

have been lots of anonymous, or effectively anonymous, detractors posting on

the list. Why won't they stand behind their words? Why won't they tell us

who they are? That is severely damaging to their credibility. Yes, aviators

stick together, and need to - but I have no reason to believe that "aerobat"

is part of the community. 



There may be a problem with the Zodiac's structure, and if so, I have every

confidence that Chris Heintz will own up to it and issue a fix. Until we get

real information, however, speculation - especially on the basis of the

Dutch grounding (and that they grounded the aircraft and promptly left on a

month's vacation speaks volumes about their professionalism) - helps nobody.

It doesn't help builders, it doesn't help owners, it doesn't help pilots, it

doesn't help the authorities, and it doesn't help Zenair and its affiliated

companies. The only folks it does help are the folks building aircraft and

kits that compete with the Zodiac, and, as far as I'm concerned, they can

damned well fend for themselves in the marketplace without the help of dirty

tricks.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 12:17:24PM -0800, dougsire wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with

 commies, please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American"

 rants you will find on these forums.  If it is any consolation, these

 tirades are usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.


	


FWIW, I don't care where someone posts from. Uninformed speculation and

rumormongering is harmful whether it comes from the UK, the US, or

elsewhere.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me

 enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some

 structural enhancements.


	


The only structural analysis I've seen (the preliminary report from the

ZBAG) shows that the wing is adequately designed to meet the stated loads.

It's not as overbuilt as some, but the nature of light sport aircraft limits

how much overbuilding is possible.



 	  Quote: 	
		   This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think

 everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember

 folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....).  I can understand that

 it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't

 fly.  We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.


	


I agree. If my aircraft were grounded by some governmental official who

couldn't be bothered to do his job instead of taking off on vacation and

leaving nobody to resolve the issue, as the Dutch did, I'd be furious.

However, I wouldn't be spreading derogatory rumors about it, especially

without standing behind my words.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

"I, too, have seen a structural analysis that has given me...concern..." I suspect nearly all of us would much appreciate an elaboration of this.

 

Elden Jacobson

xl/3300



--- On Tue, 12/23/08, dougsire <dsire(at)imt.net> wrote:



From: dougsire <dsire(at)imt.net>

Subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 4:17 AM




<dsire(at)imt.net>



To our Zenith friends around the world,



On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commies,

please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants

you will find on these forums.   If it is any consolation, these tirades are

usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.



I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me

enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some

structural enhancements.



This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think

everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember

folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....).   I can understand that

it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly

aerobat

Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech 601XL. 

An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.

The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why.

I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried about the wing then so am I.

I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.

A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.

If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ?

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

Paid Spammer by a "Competitor"...  This simple.



--- On Mon, 12/22/08, jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com> wrote:

 [quote]From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>

Subject: Re: Re: More on the XL grounding

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 9:39 AM



  Gig - Are you saying that Aerobat is really a Dingbat?  (Dingbats do use "rumor has it" as an authentic information source)



Do not archive



 



 



--

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: More on the XL grounding

I'm  curious how long the LAA has been analyzing this problem.  Have  

they found a problem in a few weeks that others have been spending  

months if not years searching for?  If so I'm really impressed, and  

they won't confirm it.   I'm just as concerned about this as anyone  

else, but this scenario just doesn't add up.  My head isn't in the  

sand, but my BS meter is pegged.



The more people vetting a design the better.  The problem here is that  

the only people who actually have confirmed having done an analysis  

haven't found a problem.



Ron

On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:05 PM, aerobat wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rhood2000(at)hotmail.com>



 The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I  

 own a Czech 601XL.

 An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had  

 a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.

 The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to  

 know why.

 I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering  

 knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and  

 if they are worried about the wing then so am I.

 I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we  

 discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but  

 maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out  

 to be fact.

 A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome,  

 all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.

 If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received  

 information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he  

 will be sued for ?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20645#220645

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: More on the XL grounding

So it is your habit to walk into bars and say nothing but negatives and rumors about the key interest of the rest of the customers.



Man, I bet you get beat up a lot.



 	  aerobat wrote: 	
		  The reason  my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech 601XL. 

An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.

The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why.

I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried about the wing then so am I.

I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.

A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.

If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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