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What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?
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Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

Hi gang,

   I learned to fly in a J-3 back in 1946, we were  taught to go straight ahead if we had engine failure on take off...later on i  had a engine fail on takeoff in a J-3, I never thought about trying to turn  around to the runway which was a farm field. I went about straight ahead into a  pasture and the plane was ok, I was lucky to have that field there, I had veered  slightly to the right on take off because there was a woods straight ahead, good  thing i did. 

     You need to remember stall speeds go up in  turns. I wonder how many on this list have made a 180 on take off after losing a  engine and survived and if so from what altitude? I also wonder how many have  stalled and crashed or killed themselves trying it? As for me if I lose a engine  on my firestar on take off I will go straight ahead no matter what unless i have  6 to 7 hundred feet. Hope this info saves someone's life....

  

 do not  archive

jim swan FS ll 503

michigan



Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite scom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

Hi Jim S:

  

 Good to hear you are still alive and kicking in the cold  country, or have you migrated with the other snow bird from Michigan to  Florida?

  

 Your IP probably knew what he was talking about.  Not  much has changed from then to now.  Gravity is still in  charge.

  

 john h

 mkIII-Too windy to fly today, especially after a 2.5 month lay  off.  67F

  

  

 [quote]      I learned to fly in    a J-3 back in 1946, we were taught to go straight ahead     

    

   jim swan FS ll    503

michigan

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

Stall speed vs bank angle is widely misunderstood. Many CFIs regurgitate what they've been taught and what they've read in FAA publications without fully understanding it. What most have been taught is that "Stall speed increases with increased bank angle." What they are not taught, but is true nonetheless, is that this statement is true ONLY if there is an increase in G loading, which is the case if you are trying to maintain altitude and airspeed. If you maintain 1 G loading when banking steeply(by descending at the proper rate), the stall speed does not increase. The only way to maintain 1 G load while banking steeply and turning is by descending while turning. 



The "Stall speed increases with increased bank angle." adage probably came about as an over simplification because it is easier to teach and is a good idea as a point of safety when teaching new students. Unfortunately, that is as far as most pilots, CFIs included, ever dig into the physics.



If you are comfortable with experimenting, consider sometime climbing to an altitude of at least 2,500' AGL, do clearing turns then reduce the power to idle, put the nose down and hold your normal approach speed.  and start banking to your favorite side, BEING SURE TO HOLD YOUR NORMAL APPROACH SPEED THROUGHOUT this maneuver, continue increasing the bank angle until your maximum comfort level and notice how quickly you are turning. You should also notice three other things. 1) You are NOT experiencing higher than 1 G loading, like you would at high bank angles with power and maintaining altitude. 2) You are not stalling. 3) Your descent rate and turning rate increase as you increase the bank angle while holding a constant airspeed.



While descending, gently roll to wings level attitude with coordinating rudder maintaining your normal approach speed (do this without increasing G load). Complete this maneuver by no lower than 1,500' AGL because that is the minimum legal altitude for maneuvering flight.



The most important thing to get from this is that the increased G loading from maintaining airspeed AND ALTITUDE while increasing bank angle is responsible for the increased stall speed. Maintain 1 G load at your normal approach speed by descending and you can bank quite steeply without increasing the stall speed. If you start to pull back on the stick while you are steeply banked you will be increasing the G loading which WILL result in a higher stall speed.



PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT recommending you do this anywhere near the ground or in a real engine out event. I'm merely trying to clear up a common misunderstanding about the relationship between bank angle and increasing stall speed.



I fully expect to get an argument so go ahead and flame away.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

> PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT recommending you do this anywhere near the ground 

or in a real engine out event. I'm merely trying to clear up a common 

misunderstanding about the relationship between bank angle and increasing 

stall speed.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I fully expect to get an argument so go ahead and flame away.



 --------

 Thom Riddle


	


Thom:



Not from me.  I'm too tired.  



Didn't know anyone was disagreeing with you.



I believe we went through this not too long ago.  Tom Kuffle was part of 

that discussion, IIRC.



I've learned through the years I can get away with a lot of stuff in a Kolb 

if I keep my airspeed above stall speed.  It is a  terrific little airplane. 

Don't think I would try and fly some of the other light aircraft like I do 

my Kolbs.



john h

mkIII - Waiting for the thunderstorms to hit.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

Well, John. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with me yet, but you never know what "expert" might be lurking hereabouts that wants to pick a fight. It has been known to happen. If they do, I won't bite. 



I should probably not have said anything on this but sometimes I just have to, especially when it is cold and raining outside, like right now. It was down to 11 F here yesterday but in the low 40s today. Feels like spring in this part of the country.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

I think the main reason the turn back is not encouraged is  "human error"



It is a lot harder to get in trouble (stall/spin) if you keep gliding straight.



In the stress of turning back to soon or low there is a very high probability that  a pilot will attempt to stretch the glide by adding back pressure and thus entering a stall/ spin.



If something doesn't feel quite right apply forward stick!



Here is a great article covering the turnback: 



http://www.auf.asn.au/magazine/turnback.html

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

John,



Did you get a chance to see what your altitude loss was with the engine off?

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

Very interesting thread, here is my experience - in a MKIII, if you are making a typical Kolb wonder climb, the first thing that has to be dealt with before you can even think of making a turn back is getting the nose down. With our high thrust line, if the engine barfs when you are in a 40 or 45 mph full throttle climb, it only takes a couple seconds for the airspeed to fall to zero, and the resulting stall is quite a dandy.

So I got serious a couple years back about occasionally practicing "engine barf recoveries" at altitude. My experience is that if you are in a steep full throttle climb and snatch the throttle back to idle, you need to immediately go to full nose down stick and even then the airspeed will go to about zero.

Meanwhile, the airplane feels like it is simultaneously decelerating and rotating around the main spar. (It's actually very cool) Once the airplane has transitioned to about a 45 degree nose down attitude, it begins to accelerate, and it doesn't feel like it actually stalls. Probably it does, but it's not apparent, because of the odd rotation it is doing.

At this point, as soon as the airspeed indicator passes about 30, (because it is accelerating very well) I have found that if you go to either a maximum deflection right or left turn (keep the ball centered) and begin your pullout, you can do a course reversal and level out in around 200 feet. Best I ever did was 160, but that was primed and ready. In actual "surprise engine barf mode," it would probably be closer to 250 feet.

As Beauford says, Worth what ye paid for it.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Well, John. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with me yet, but you never know what "expert" might be lurking hereabouts that wants to pick a fight. It has been known to happen. If they do, I won't bite. 



	




Er, for what it's worth, I don't see anything to disagree with and it seems spot on to me.

I've had a lot of fights from those same experts about the "don't exceed 30 degs in the pattern" thingy, which is cut from the same cloth.....



If you're high in the pattern, you can steepen your bank in the turns whilst maintaining 1g to increase your descent rate. Works just fine, you don't stall or have any problems. It's only when the g's start building up that you need to pay attention to your AOA and start thinking about relaxing back pressure on the stick or adding some power..... 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Well, John. I don't believe anyone has disagreed with me yet, but you never know what "expert" might be lurking hereabouts that wants to pick a fight. It has been known to happen. If they do, I won't bite. 



	




Er, for what it's worth, I don't see anything to disagree with and it seems spot on to me.

I've had a lot of fights from those same experts about the "don't exceed 30 degs in the pattern" thingy, which is cut from the same cloth.....



If you're high in the pattern, you can steepen your bank in the turns whilst maintaining 1g to increase your descent rate. Works just fine, you don't stall or have any problems. It's only when the g's start building up that you need to pay attention to your AOA and start thinking about relaxing back pressure on the stick or adding some power..... 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

40 or 45 mph full throttle climb,>>



Hi Richard,

very intersting post.



What engine do you have.? I dont think that I would climb quite that 

steeply, say 50 mph with my Jabi.  With our high thrust line the nose will 

tend to come up abit if you suddenly lose power making a potentialy chancy 

situation just a little worse.



Cheers



Pat

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

 	  Richard Pike wrote: 	
		  Very interesting thread, here is my experience - in a MKIII, if you are making a typical Kolb wonder climb, the first thing that has to be dealt with before you can even think of making a turn back is getting the nose down. With our high thrust line, if the engine barfs when you are in a 40 or 45 mph full throttle climb, it only takes a couple seconds for the airspeed to fall to zero, and the resulting stall is quite a dandy.

So I got serious a couple years back about occasionally practicing "engine barf recoveries" at altitude. My experience is that if you are in a steep full throttle climb and snatch the throttle back to idle, you need to immediately go to full nose down stick and even then the airspeed will go to about zero.

Meanwhile, the airplane feels like it is simultaneously decelerating and rotating around the main spar. (It's actually very cool) Once the airplane has transitioned to about a 45 degree nose down attitude, it begins to accelerate, and it doesn't feel like it actually stalls. Probably it does, but it's not apparent, because of the odd rotation it is doing.

At this point, as soon as the airspeed indicator passes about 30, (because it is accelerating very well) I have found that if you go to either a maximum deflection right or left turn (keep the ball centered) and begin your pullout, you can do a course reversal and level out in around 200 feet. Best I ever did was 160, but that was primed and ready. In actual "surprise engine barf mode," it would probably be closer to 250 feet.

As Beauford says, Worth what ye paid for it.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) 	




FWIW, I had practiced this same thing a fair bit in my FS II after I'd gotten a few hours in it and the results are really very predictable if you're accustomed to flying very light a/c.



I will say (heresy coming!) that the ASI doesn't tell you much in the recovery so it's better to rely on AOA maintenance skills instead. I.e. I had seen the ASI read 40 even tho I was still basically in a stall.



My FS II required a fair bit of forward stick for a few seconds to truly get flying again. Trying to restore level flight too early, particularly if you're practicing recovering without adding power, can get you into a secondary stall. 



But most high engine pusher light a/c I've flown, even my titan, are like this so it's just part of doing business in a stall....



It's actually amazing how much altitude you really need to recover tho. For that reason, I adopted a flatter climbout at higher airspeed in the FS II just in case. I do this even in the titan.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

2danglico

Joined: 08 Sep 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Seneca SC

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

I've been reading this thread for awhile and LS brought up a point that prompted me to post a thought.



 I'm a Firestar I pilot. I fly out of a private strip where there are a large contingent of old timers, with untold hours, always ready to critique any take-off/landing or flying discrepancies they feel the need to address. Actually their advice is appreciated and respected. 



When I started flying there. They were all impressed by my Kolb's ability to climb out. Typically my climb speed is 45 to 50 mph, and my VS is around 750ft/min. One day one of the old men suggested that in the event of an engine out during take off, it would be safer to trade off some of that climb angle for some extra speed. 



I'd given this a lot of thought, and practiced engine outs at altitude. And I've surmised that the aircraft at that field - Mini-max, Challenger, GT-500, Highlander & Flightstar. All seem to be faster and maybe slicker than my Kolb. Their cruise speeds bear this out. And I think perhaps my Firestar slows down so much faster with the power off than what they are used to in their planes, that the trade off doesn't hold true for me. 



I'd rather have another 70 feet than an extra 10 mph to come about  in my Firestar.



John Tempest

Firestar I 447

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

 	  2danglico wrote: 	
		  I've been reading this thread for awhile and LS brought up a point that prompted me to post a thought.



 I'm a Firestar I pilot. I fly out of a private strip where there are a large contingent of old timers, with untold hours, always ready to critique any take-off/landing or flying discrepancies they feel the need to address. Actually their advice is appreciated and respected. 



When I started flying there. They were all impressed by my Kolb's ability to climb out. Typically my climb speed is 45 to 50 mph, and my VS is around 750ft/min. One day one of the old men suggested that in the event of an engine out during take off, it would be safer to trade off some of that climb angle for some extra speed. 



I'd given this a lot of thought, and practiced engine outs at altitude. And I've surmised that the aircraft at that field - Mini-max, Challenger, GT-500, Highlander & Flightstar. All seem to be faster and maybe slicker than my Kolb. Their cruise speeds bear this out. And I think perhaps my Firestar slows down so much faster with the power off than what they are used to in their planes, that the trade off doesn't hold true for me. 



I'd rather have another 70 feet than an extra 10 mph to come about  in my Firestar.



John Tempest

Firestar I 447 	




For what it's worth,



The principles involved are still the same, it's about energy mangement - how much you have (potential and kinetic) vs how quickly it's dissipated by your particular plane.



Oddly enough, tho, I practiced the engine-out on takeoff multiple times in my FS II and always found the safest method to be pretty much the same as in most other planes I've flown. 



I found it safest to climb out flat at close to cruise speed up to about 50', after that I could slow down to a better climb angle and still have plenty of energy left to do a good landing. 



The least safe method is Vx/Vy immediately upon leaving ground effect (tho sometimes you have to do that and just grit your teeth ). 



In my experience, this seems to be the case in the other planes I've flown, even my trike, with the only variation being how high I can get before slowing down and assuming a higher climb AOA. 



Strange but true....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

If you are high enough, it is far better to do a 180 degree back to the runway than needlessly glide straight ahead into trees and powerlines.   A friend of mine flying a Rans at our airport had a total and sudden engine failure over the end of the runway over the summer, and successfully turned 180 degrees and landed back on the runway instead of going into houses and trees.   GrantR has the right idea on this one, if you have a long enough runway like he does, with really bad options straight ahead and to the sides,  a 180 degree turn back to a safe landing would be the smartest and safest thing to do.   Of course this requires practice and extra skill, but from Grants practicing this, I am sure he is up to the challenge if it ever happens.   It is important to practice and be proficient with this maneuver if that is part of your engine out plan. 



Every situation is different, if the runway is short an you try a turn back to the runway, you will kill yourself.  If you do not have enough altitude and attempt this, you will kill yourself.  If the pilot has never practiced this maneuver, he will again most likely kill himself.  Like most situations in aviation, you must use good judgment depending on the airport, considering: runway length, and obstacles ahead and to the sides, and YOUR SKILL LEVEL.   270 degrees of turn is not needed to make a turn back to the airport, my friend in the Rans turned about 200 degrees total, a very tight 200 with put him a bit off centerline but angling back to the runway, which resulted in landing in a slight angle across our wide runway which he straightened out once rolling on the ground.   My friend is a good pilot, and flew his return perfectly, with no damage to the plane or himself.   There were no good landing options straight ahead or to the sides as in Grants case.



The problem is that we only hear about the cases of returns to airports that went horribly wrong, but almost never hear about successful returns back to the field.  It is far easier to " Parrot " the popular statement of NEVER attempt a return to the field than it is to analyze the facts, and acquire the skills to make the correct choice depending on the situation.   The attached picture below shows a 10,500 foot runway with nothing but trees at the end and to the sides, only a total idiot would glide straight ahead for miles into trees rather than turn back to this airport in the case of an engine failure over the end of the runway.   EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT, there are no hard and fast rules here.



Mike

UltralightAerialFloridaHomesteadToEvergladesCity-2008-184.JPG

Description:

10,000 Foot runway with nothing but trees at the end...

Filesize:

184.05 KB

Viewed:

542 Time(s)

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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

only a total idiot would glide straight ahead for miles into trees rather 

than turn back to this airport in the case of an engine failure over the end 

of the runway.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike


	


Mike:



I'll try to remember that.



I see many options for emergency landings in your photo without doing a 180 

and returning to the field.



I am familiar with this airport.  Flew to Key West during my 1994 flight to 

Alaska and around the border of CONUS.



10,500 feet is a lot longer than my 750 feet.  I think I could handle it. 





BTW:  Not too many trees around that airstrip.



john h

mkIII

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: Re: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



10,500 feet is a lot longer than my 750 feet.  I think I could handle it. 



john h

mkIII 	
  



After seeing your landing video in Louisiana, I think you could pull it off, just be careful not to blank out your elevator on the flare !



And your " Air Taxi " technique would be very useful at this field  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: What is your Altitude loss in a 180 degree turn?

just be careful not to blank out your elevator on the flare !

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike


	




Mike:



Not flying fast enough to blank out anything.



However, if you push the nose over into a very steep dive with full flaps, 

then pull back hard on the stick, the MKIII will not acknowledge that you 

have pulled by on the stick.  It will keep on heading earthward.  Retract 

flaps, pull hard on stick, and she comes right out of that.  First time I 

did that one was with a chunky passenger, well over 200 lbs.  Shocked me, 

but I had plenty altitude to recover.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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