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582 RPM question.

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815TL

Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 62

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Just a quick question about 582 RPMs.  I ran the engine up today, keeping it lubed up.  My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second weekend of Jan. weather permitting.  



After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so.  The tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker.  It looks like it was hand put on by the last owner.  Anyway, red starts about 6200.  At full throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900.  The engine ran well, and did not hiccup at all. 



I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800.



The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sure of ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive.  Running about full rich, as the on EGT was around 1150+.  Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL.



Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM?



Andrew

Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Yes.  A prop, depending on the pitch, can produce full throttle static RPM

well below redline, regardless of the engine it is mounted on.



John Hart

KF IV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

there can be a lot of debate ....  I finally had a long talk with the 

folks at Lockwood  and my wot at climb was 6200  and wot  on ground was 

about 6000 ... they said I was giving up a lot of power and in fact 

harder on the engine....  they told at least 6600  wot during best rate 

of climb ( 55 mph)  6800  is better.  Well  I took a bit of pitch out 

and get 6600  or a bit more wot at 55 and it definitely better.  TT on 

that engine 438 hrs.   IVO prop 3 blade



I think some folks think lower rpm is kinder to a 2 stroke when in fact 

it may not be ..let her run like its tuned to  enjoy!



Dave

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Maybe the 6200 is real 6800 calibrated RPM!?



Jan

---

815TL

Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 62

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: 582 RPM question.

Thank you guys.  It could be that the tach. is off.  Is there a way to test it, and calibrate it.  I know that as of October that the plane was flying well, as that is the last time that Larry Huntley flew it.  Nothing has really changed motor wise since then, except for repair of the starter.



Andrew

tc9008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I have a grey 582 c box and my static rpm is 6200 which gives me 6800 on take off and climb out. With one person flying 5800 is good crusing.

 Travis

 

 

 --

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

"Optimal" performance with a 582 is a matter of personal preference and involves balancing prop pitch, rpms, carb jetting and EGT's. Check out Mike Stratman's articles for great instruction on achieving the balance. http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm

  

 From the numbers you gave, it appears the previous owner had "the balance" set where he liked it. Could be different for you.

  

 Prop pitch will most certainly affect rpms, rate of climb, cruise speed and egts.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

 



--- On Thu, 12/25/08, 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>

Subject: 582 RPM question.

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 7:58 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "815TL"

<lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>



Just a quick question about 582 RPMs.  I ran the engine up today, keeping it

lubed up.  My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second weekend

of Jan. weather permitting.  



After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so.  The

tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker.  It looks like

it was hand put on by the last owner.  Anyway, red starts about 6200.  At full

throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900.  The engine ran well,

and did not hiccup at all. 



I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM

over a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off the

mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800.



The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sure of

ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive.  Running about full rich, as the on EGT was

around 1150+.  Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL.



Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM?



Andrew

Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21137#221137





	
	




           [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

At 04:58 PM 12/25/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little 

higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those 

RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is 

somewhere around 6800.


	


Andrew,

         As the other members already said, the first step is to 

check your RPM with an optical tach. There have been several 

instances of analog tachs being off. The optical tachs are made for 

RC aircraft. Second, I feel you want to run a 582 at as high an RPM 

as you can, since the power band is narrow relative to common 4-cycle 

aircraft engines. I set mine up to run 6800 full throttle level 

flight at 4500'. This results in about 6200 static. Unfortunately you 

have to iterate a bit if you have an adjustable prop. And yes, the 

prop pitch controls the RPM directly. Being as close as you are I'd 

make changes in 1/2 degree increments.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I'm not an expert on this but I will pass along what a Rotax repair centre

suggested to me.



On wheels or skis for a Kitfox tie the tail down (static) and set your prop

pitch for 6200 rpm this will give you lots of power for takeoff and good

cruise ability.

On floats set your static rpm at 6400.  This will give you a full 6800 rpm

in the lift off and initial climb.  Cruise speed will drop some but remember

you are dragging floats so there is no way it will be as fast.



I actually installed an IVO IFA on my plane.  We don't have Sport here in

Canada so the IFA is a non issue here.  I set my pitch for 6800 in the climb

before landing so the prop was ready for a go around as well as my next take

off.  Before levelling off I would reset my prop to 6600 in the climb and

leave it there for my entire cruise.  Of course I also made adjustments in

the throttle so after setting my prop for cruise I'd throttle back to around

5800 rpm.



Because the two stroke engine can run very lean when the prop is unloaded

and the carbs will make the engine run rich while idling I don't do long

descents.  I pull the throttle right back to the idle to descend  I run the

engine at cruise rpm under load every 45 seconds or so just to keep the rad

from cooling down too much.  This means my descents are sort of like steps

down from the sky.  

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A

Aerocet 1100 floats



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Get a Tiny Tach for two stroke.  No moving parts and very accurate...  The

tach (Kitfox) that came on my plane was reading 20% high across the full

arc!  It's a wonder I was able to drag the plane into the air on floats.

3000 feet was my maximum altitude.  The one saving grace of the old tach was

the prop was a wooden one over ten years time-exed.  I'm pretty sure if I

tried to run that old prop at full rpm I would have had a departure.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Noel C Did you ever consider shutters on the radiator C like Lowell Fitts sells C to keep your water temp up durning decent? I bought a set from him. I had to get extra parts C my radiator is larger than the original stock one C and modify mine to fit. I can't comment on how they work on decent at idle yet C but plenty of others have his shutters on their plane and can tell us.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

 



[quote] From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 582 RPM question.

 Date: Sat C 27 Dec 2008 12:12:02 -0330

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 

 I'm not an expert on this but I will pass along what a Rotax repair centre

 suggested to me.

 

 On wheels or skis for a Kitfox tie the tail down (static) and set your prop

 pitch for 6200 rpm this will give you lots of power for takeoff and good

 cruise ability.

 On floats set your static rpm at 6400. This will give you a full 6800 rpm

 in the lift off and initial climb. Cruise speed will drop some but remember

 you are dragging floats so there is no way it will be as fast.

 

 I actually installed an IVO IFA on my plane. We don't have Sport here in

 Canada so the IFA is a non issue here. I set my pitch for 6800 in the climb

 before landing so the prop was ready for a go around as well as my next take

 off. Before levelling off I would reset my prop to 6600 in the climb and

 leave it there for my entire cruise. Of course I also made adjustments in

 the throttle so after setting my prop for cruise I'd throttle back to around

 5800 rpm.

 

 Because the two stroke engine can run very lean when the prop is unloaded

 and the carbs will make the engine run rich while idling I don't do long

 descents. I pull the throttle right back to the idle to descend I run the

 engine at cruise rpm under load every 45 seconds or so just to keep the rad

 from cooling down too much. This means my descents are sort of like steps

 down from the sky. 

 

 

 Noel Loveys

 AME Intern C RPP

 Kitfox III-A

 Aerocet 1100 floats

 

 

 

 --

815TL

Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 62

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: 582 RPM question.

Thanks again everyone for all the info.  It sounds like the Tiny Tach is the way to go, and they are fairly inexpensive.  Should I just remove the old tach and put this in place, or run both?  Are they accurate enough to, just run it alone?



First few flights, I will probably just leave it as is, and see how everything goes, then move on to the Tiny Tach and adjusting the prop pitch.



Andrew

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I considered something similar..  Building a scoop with a shutter/bypass on it.    

   

So far over cooling hasn’t been a problem...  neither has overheating.  I’m in the process now of installing a 912 in the plane and I’m planning on using the same radiator and if necessary I’ll be adding the scoop.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly

 Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 1:33 PM

 To: kitfox matronics

 Subject: RE: 582 RPM question.  

  

  

   

Noel, Did you ever consider shutters on the radiator, like Lowell Fitts sells, to keep your water temp up durning decent? I bought a set from him. I had to get extra parts, my radiator is larger than the original stock one, and modify mine to fit. I can't comment on how they work on decent at idle yet, but plenty of others have his shutters on their plane and can tell us.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 

 

 > From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: 582 RPM question.

 > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:12:02 -0330

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 > 

 > I'm not an expert on this but I will pass along what a Rotax repair centre

 > suggested to me.

 > 

 > On wheels or skis for a Kitfox tie the tail down (static) and set your prop

 > pitch for 6200 rpm this will give you lots of power for takeoff and good

 > cruise ability.

 > On floats set your static rpm at 6400. This will give you a full 6800 rpm

 > in the lift off and initial climb. Cruise speed will drop some but remember

 > you are dragging floats so there is no way it will be as fast.

 > 

 > I actually installed an IVO IFA on my plane. We don't have Sport here in

 > Canada so the IFA is a non issue here. I set my pitch for 6800 in the climb

 > before landing so the prop was ready for a go around as well as my next take

 > off. Before levelling off I would reset my prop to 6600 in the climb and

 > leave it there for my entire cruise. Of course I also made adjustments in

 > the throttle so after setting my prop for cruise I'd throttle back to around

 > 5800 rpm.

 > 

 > Because the two stroke engine can run very lean when the prop is unloaded

 > and the carbs will make the engine run rich while idling I don't do long

 > descents. I pull the throttle right back to the idle to descend I run the

 > engine at cruise rpm under load every 45 seconds or so just to keep the rad

 > from cooling down too much. This means my descents are sort of like steps

 > down from the sky. 

 > 

 > 

 > Noel Loveys

 > AME Intern, RPP

 > Kitfox III-A

 > Aerocet 1100 floats

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

This is just my personal preference but I run both...  

There is a reason for that. The digital gives a very accurate reading of the

rpm at a point in time but you have to follow the numbers to establish a

trend like is the engine speeding up slightly or slowing down slightly...

The analog. original tach. reads the trends very well so I use it for that

and just ignore the numbers on the face.  The very best would be a digital

tach with a line representing trend like a lot of cars have in thier digital

dashboards.



A word of advice; when you wrap the spark plug leads for the Tiny Tach, be

sure to wrap both plug leads for one cylinder so the tach will still work

when you do your mag tests.  



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I'd leave it in Andrew, unless you've got something else you're dying to put in the vacant hole. Here's why: Tiny tach is accurate but because it reads ignition impulses from one ignition wire only, it can't tell you much about how your other CDI module is performing. While the steam gauge may be innacurate, it will show relative difference between CDI 1 and 2 when you do your run-up. At least that's my personal rationalization for keeping the old, inaccurate tach.

  

 What i'd really like is a truly accurate 2-stroke rpm gauge with inputs from both CDI modules.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



--- On Sat, 12/27/08, 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>

Subject: Re: 582 RPM question.

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 1:00 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "815TL"

<lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>



Thanks again everyone for all the info.  It sounds like the Tiny Tach is the

way to go, and they are fairly inexpensive.  Should I just remove the old tach

and put this in place, or run both?  Are they accurate enough to, just run it

alone?



First few flights, I will probably just leave it as is, and see how everything

goes, then move on to the Tiny Tach and adjusting the prop pirch.



Andrew





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21372#221372





	
	


         [quote][b]

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Well thanks Noel for solving my problem with the Tiny Tach and giving me a new and better rationale for keeping both instruments! Don't you love this list?

 

Happy new year and go Gators!

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:



From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Subject: RE: Re: 582 RPM question.

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 1:53 PM




<noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



This is just my personal preference but I run both...  

There is a reason for that. The digital gives a very accurate reading of the

rpm at a point in time but you have to follow the numbers to establish a

trend like is the engine speeding up slightly or slowing down slightly...

The analog. original tach. reads the trends very well so I use it for that

and just ignore the numbers on the face.  The very best would be a digital

tach with a line representing trend like a lot of cars have in thier digital

dashboards.



A word of advice; when you wrap the spark plug leads for the Tiny Tach, be

sure to wrap both plug leads for one cylinder so the tach will still work

when you do your mag tests.  



Noel



--

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I run a tiny tack along w my large dial tack  because it is not as accurate as the tiny is.  practically the only time a tack is mandatory is to set prop pitch for maximum rpm for climb out and to let you know when your B gear box needs maintenance because of rough idling above 2000 rpm the performance of a two stroke varies  greatly because of density altitude and it is sometimes moor in portent to run your motor at a setting that gives you the best egt reading and not at a perdetermined rpm I know some people that run the egt at a setting that looks good on the gage despite the fact that their plugs look too white to me and other that run the plugs so rich that they run the risk of fowling and that greatly increases the amount of  carbon build up yet I don't know  many people that check their egt gages agents a spare one  or that run constantly high egt readings because there plugs tell them the setting is ok I have Benn told by Eric tucker that is things like is the reason the FAA considered thees craft an experiment  and uncertafied aircraft 



--- On Sat, 12/27/08, 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com> wrote:

[quote]From: 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>

Subject: Re: 582 RPM question.

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 6:00 PM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "815TL"

<lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>



Thanks again everyone for all the info.  It sounds like the Tiny Tach is the

way to go, and they are fairly inexpensive.  Should I just remove the old tach

and put this in place, or            [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

Wrap the impulse pick up wire around both the ignition wires from either cylinder.  That way the Tiny Tach will accurately read the mag drop on both cylinders.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes

 Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 2:47 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 582 RPM question.  

  

              

I'd leave it in Andrew, unless you've got something else   you're dying to put in the vacant hole. Here's why: Tiny tach is accurate but   because it reads ignition impulses from one ignition wire only, it can't tell   you much about how your other CDI module is performing. While the steam gauge   may be innacurate, it will show relative difference between CDI 1 and 2 when   you do your run-up. At least that's my personal rationalization for keeping   the old, inaccurate tach.   

      

    

      

What i'd really like is a truly accurate 2-stroke rpm   gauge with inputs from both CDI modules.   

      

    

      

Marco Menezes N99KX   

      

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

   

   

      

        

   [quote] [b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

You bring up a good point...  The EGT gauges are not calibrated at all.  To me that means I run my engine so I get nice tan plugs.  Then and only then I will make readings on the EGT gauges.  Then if I see a change developing in the egt I’ll check the plugs as soon as possible.  The EGT gauges should be used as a guide not the last word on engine performance.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Brubaker

 Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:52 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 582 RPM question.  

  

           

I run a tiny tack along w my large dial tack  because   it is not as accurate as the tiny is.  practically the only time a tack   is mandatory is to set prop pitch for maximum rpm for climb out and to let   you know when your B gear box needs maintenance because of rough idling above   2000 rpm the performance of a two stroke varies  greatly because of   density altitude and it is sometimes moor in portent to run your motor at a   setting that gives you the best egt reading and not at a perdetermined rpm I   know some people that run the egt at a setting that looks good on the gage   despite the fact that their plugs look too white to me and other that run the   plugs so rich that they run the risk of fowling and that greatly increases   the amount of  carbon build up yet I don't know many people that check   their egt gages agents a spare one  or that run constantly high egt   readings because there plugs tell them the setting is ok I have Benn told by   Eric tucker that is things like is the reason the FAA considered thees craft   an experiment  and uncertafied aircraft 

   

   --- On Sat, 12/27/08, 815TL <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>   wrote:   

From: 815TL   <lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>

   Subject: Re: 582 RPM question.

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 6:00 PM    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "815TL"

<lawrenceaw(at)corning.com>

  

Thanks again everyone for all the info.  It sounds like the Tiny Tach is the

way to go, and they are fairly inexpensive.  Should I just remove the old tach

and put this in place, or             	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Cmflyboy12(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: 582 RPM question.

I,ve got a air scoop and shutter that I,ve installed on my kitfox 2,582 and  it works good.I used it in cold temps to keep it 140 and above works  great



New year...new news.  Be the first000026">headlines.

  [quote][b]

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