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Can I log PIC time

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recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Folks,



I'm getting ready for my first flight in my RV6A.  The plane's legal, the pilot's legal, now I want to work on the safe part...I'll be going to Georgia in a couple of weeks to get some refresher time with Pierre.  Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out if I can log PIC time in other pilots' 6/7/8/9...I don't have a tailwheel endorsement?!



I know that the most critical times are take-off and landings - I want to practice some stalls, turns, and  slowing down for landing etc.



Experience is experience and I already have my type sign-off.



Thanks,

Ralph

N822AR (at) N06 0 hrs and chomping at the bit......

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Can I log PIC time

I would say you need the tail wheel endorsement to act as and log as PIC.



I know you are anxious to get started but do it right. In the long run there is no significant benefit to packing a few questionable hours in your logbook.

_________________
Milt

etekberg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Short answer is yes, you can log PIC time w/o an endorsement as long as someone else is "acting" as the PIC.



61.31 prohibits you to "act" as PIC in a tailwheel plane without an endorsement.  61.51 allows you to "log" PIC time for that portion of the flight in which you are the sole manipulator of the controls in a plane in which you are rated (i.e. Airplane SEL in this case).  I copied the far sections below for reference.

 

CFR Title 14, Part 61.31 excerpt



 	  Quote: 	
		  

  (i) Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:  

  (i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;  

  (ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and  

  (iii) Go-around procedures. 	




CFR Title 14, Part 61.51 excerpt:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—  

  (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;  

  (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or  

 (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 	




On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:15 AM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

  

 Folks,

 

 I'm getting ready for my first flight in my RV6A.  The plane's legal, the pilot's legal, now I want to work on the safe part...I'll be going to Georgia in a couple of weeks to get some refresher time with Pierre.  Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out if I can log PIC time in other pilots' 6/7/8/9...I don't have a tailwheel endorsement?!

  

 I know that the most critical times are take-off and landings - I want to practice some stalls, turns, and  slowing down for landing etc.

 

 Experience is experience and I already have my type sign-off.

 

 Thanks,

 Ralph

 N822AR (at) N06 0 hrs and chomping at the bit......

 

 

 

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 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

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 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Milt said what I was thinking.....I wasn't planning to do this instead....I'm flying with Pierre regardless.



I already have my sign-off for the 6A - just not a tailwheel - which I probably should get regardless/eventually too!



--

etekberg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Not trying to be argumentative, but you are part right and part wrong.  There is a difference between "acting" as PIC and "logging" PIC time as specified by the CFRs.  You are correct in that you can not act as PIC, but you are wrong in that you can log PIC time as long as someone else is "acting" PIC.  See my other post where I quoted the CFRs.  Along the same lines, did you know you can log PIC time without a current medical?

 

Eric



On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:35 AM, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>

 

 I would say you neeed the tailwheel endorsement to act as and log as PIC.

 

 I know you ar anxious to get started but do it right. In the long run there is no significant benefit to packing a few questionable hours in your logbook.

 

 --------

 Milt

 2003 F1 Rocket

 2006 Radial Rocket

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589[/url]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 [b]

Rick Galati

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Can I log PIC time

I asked several pilots a similar question because I have no tail wheel experience much less an endorsement and my recently completed RV-8 awaits!  Recently, an ex-instructor friend of mine has been teaching me to fly his Citabria  with him "instructing" from the back seat and I have accumulated several hours to date.  As far as he is concerned, I can now  fly it solo BUT he cannot provide the endorsement because he let his instructor status lapse. 



Surely, I thought I can log the time legally but quickly found out that one pilot said this, another pilot said that. A current and seasoned instructor could not give me a straight answer either.  I finally decided to contact the AOPA which is what I should have done in the first place.  No opinions, no hearsay, no urban legends, just the facts.  The fact is this....YES you can legally log PIC  time without a tail wheel endorsement as long as you are properly rated which means category and class.  The AOPA  has a full explanation detailing this often asked question on their website.  Don't take my word for it or anybody else's.  Check into it yourself.  When you are done doing the research, feel free to log PIC for the amount of time you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

Last edited by Rick Galati on Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

 	  Quote: 	
		     Along the same lines, did you know you can log PIC time without a 

 current medical?



That is true, same as I can instruct without a current medical as long 
	


as the pilot is qualified

to act as PIC. There are even some instructors that think you need a 2nd 

class medical to

instruct, which you don't. You can instruct without a medical or only a 

3rd class depending on the students

qualifications.  FAA in their wisdom has determined that we as flight 

instructors are not being paid

as pilots but as teachers.



Little OT but interesting.

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

No, you are misreading the FARs you quoted. No where does it say you 

have to have an endorsement to "log" PIC, only to "act as PIC". It 

states you can log the time if you are the sole manipulator of the 

controls. Quoting the same 61.51 you included:



e) /Logging pilot-in-command flight time. /(1) A sport, recreational, 

private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that 

flight time during which that person—



(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the 

pilot is rated or has privileges;



Being rated is single engine land airplane, not tailwheel endorsed. Some 

of us are old enough to not have any of that endorsement junk, being 

"grandfathered".



Eric Ekberg wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Not trying to be argumentative, but you are part right and part wrong. 

 There is a difference between "acting" as PIC and "logging" PIC time 

 as specified by the CFRs. You are correct in that you can not act as 

 PIC, but you are wrong in that you can log PIC time as long as someone 

 else is "acting" PIC. See my other post where I quoted the CFRs. Along 

 the same lines, did you know you can log PIC time without a current 

 medical?



 Eric



 On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:35 AM, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com 

 <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>> wrote:



     

     <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>>



     I would say you neeed the tailwheel endorsement to act as and log

     as PIC.



     I know you ar anxious to get started but do it right. In the long

     run there is no significant benefit to packing a few questionable

     hours in your logbook.



     --------

     Milt

     2003 F1 Rocket

     2006 Radial Rocket





     Read this topic online here:



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589



 *



 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

etekberg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Ummm...that's exactly what I said??



On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

  

 No, you are misreading the FARs you quoted. No where does it say you have to have an endorsement to "log" PIC, only to "act as PIC". It states you can log the time if you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Quoting the same 61.51 you included:

  

 e) /Logging pilot-in-command flight time. /(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

 

 (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

 

 Being rated is single engine land airplane, not tailwheel endorsed. Some of us are old enough to not have any of that endorsement junk, being "grandfathered".

 

 

 

 Eric Ekberg wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Not trying to be argumentative, but you are part right and part wrong. There is a difference between "acting" as PIC and "logging" PIC time as specified by the CFRs. You are correct in that you can not act as PIC, but you are wrong in that you can log PIC time as long as someone else is "acting" PIC. See my other post where I quoted the CFRs. Along the same lines, did you know you can log PIC time without a current medical?

  

 Eric

 

 On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:35 AM, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com) <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>> wrote:

  

     --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V"

     <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com) <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>>

 

     I would say you neeed the tailwheel endorsement to act as and log

     as PIC.

 

     I know you ar anxious to get started but do it right. In the long

     run there is no significant benefit to packing a few questionable

     hours in your logbook.

 

     --------

     Milt

     2003 F1 Rocket

     2006 Radial Rocket

 

 

 

 

     Read this topic online here:

 



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221589#221589

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 *

 

 *

 	


 

 

 ===========

 

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ===========

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

jfogarty(at)tds.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

How about this, "you are rated for a single  engine land  airplane, however, your endorsement to log time needs to be  for a tailwheel on take off and landing."  You can log the time in the air  as PIC, but not the time for landings and/or takeoffs, because you  don't have the endorsement for tailwheel, consequently, you need to have a rated  and endorsed pilot with you.   Plus, your insurance will not cover you  for landings or takeoffs and you need to do that to get up and down with your  single engine aircraft!  I'm confused, how about you. 

  

  In the original post, the instructor wasn't  certified, so he couldn't give the pilot an endorsement.  I think the  pilot knows how to fly a 

 tailwheel aircraft and he should go put  in a few more hours with someone who is certified and can give him the  endorsement.   Just my two cents. 

  

 Jim  

 [quote]   ---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

I read your post to say the exact opposite. So perhaps I misunderstood what you thought you were saying?   

 

 Eric Ekberg wrote: [quote]Ummm...that's exactly what I said??

   

   On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

     

 No, you are misreading the FARs you quoted. No where does it say you have to have an endorsement to "log" PIC, only to "act as PIC". It states you can log the time if you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Quoting the same 61.51 you included:

     

 e) /Logging pilot-in-command flight time. /(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

     

 (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

     

 Being rated is single engine land airplane, not tailwheel endorsed. Some of us are old enough to not have any of that endorsement junk, being "grandfathered".

     

     

     

 Eric Ekberg wrote:

      	  Quote: 	
		   Not trying to be argumentative, but you are part right and part wrong. There is a difference between "acting" as PIC and "logging" PIC time as specified by the CFRs. You are correct in that you can not act as PIC, but you are wrong in that you can log PIC time as long as someone else is "acting" PIC. See my other post where I quoted the CFRs. Along the same lines, did you know you can log PIC time without a current medical?

       

 Eric

       

 On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:35 AM, N395V <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com) <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>> wrote:

       

    --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V"

    <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com) <mailto:Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>>

       

    I would say you neeed the tailwheel endorsement to act as and log

    as PIC.

       

    I know you ar anxious to get started but do it right. In the long

    run there is no significant benefit to packing a few questionable

    hours in your logbook.

       

    --------

    Milt

    2003 F1 Rocket

    2006 Radial Rocket       

       

       

       

       

    Read this topic online here:

       

       

    [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589[/url]

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

 *

       

 *

     	
          

     

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 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

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 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

     

     

     

     

     

   



 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

	
 [b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Can I log PIC time

I think relative to this issue the best advice so far is Rick's in the form of "check into it yourself" then decide.



After looking over the FARs, definitions and AOPA interpretations I am convinced that  the nebulosity of the FARs allow one to distinguish between "acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time" although this is illogical, to me, I am also convinced you cannot be successfully  violated by the FAA for logging time as PIC based solely on being the sole manipulator of the controls. 



I think, though, one must consider the purposes for which they are logging the flight time and the benefits and risks thereof.



I currently log flight time only for  insurance and currency purposes and because I believe it is required. I am not going to obtain any more ratings and am never going to become an airline pilot so total hours are somewhat irrelevant to me.



If you want to become an airline pilot and currently have only a few hundred hours then you may consider every hour possible as precious especially hours of PIC, IMC, ME etc.



I have a friend that wanted to be an airline pilot and needed Multi Time.



I would let him fly with me in my Twin Commander. He flew from the right seat  and for all or some of many flights he was the sole manipulator of the controls. He was a Commercial MEL pilot with an instrument rating and therefore qualified to act as pilot in command of the plane except he never had a high altitude endorsement. 



From an insurance standpoint I clearly had to be acting PIC as on every flight but as a "sole manipulator of the controls" he elected to "log PIC time" for those hours he flew the plane.



He got an offer to fly a King Air and went through training and received his high altitude endorsement to qualify for insurance.



Eventually the day came and he was invited to an American Eagle interview. The high point of his life. It was a group interview by 3 captains.



The 1st part of the interview went well for him. They took a break and the Captains examined the candidates log books.



After the break they questioned him as to how he could log PIC hours in a pressurised aircraft before he received a high altitude endorsement. They also noted a training certificate for the King Air stapled in his logbook and lack of one for the Twin Commander. One of the capatains suggested he was packing his logbook with "questionable hours". his explanation of the FARs and the various interpretations did not help. His interview ended at that point, he was not invited back. H logged a totlal of 25 hrs in the Commander, and insignificant amount in the overall scheme of things.

_________________
Milt

bifft(at)xmission.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    In the original post, the instructor wasn't certified, so he couldn't

 give the pilot an endorsement.  I think the pilot knows how to fly a

 tailwheel aircraft and he should go put in a few more hours with

 someone who is certified and can give him the endorsement.   Just my two

 cents.


	




  This is what I did when learning to fly the Starduster, flew with other

partners in the airplane till I knew what I was doing, then flew with an

instructor to get the endorsement.

  Brian Huffaker, DSWL (bifft(at)xmission.com)

  RV-8A 80091  Mounting brake resevior

  1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying

bjudge(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Ralph:

 The question on Logging Time is directed at your insurance company not the Feds Provided the time is not going to count toward "Ratings & Currency"

  

 I know people that were permitted by insurance to call any RV time "time in type"

  

 Bill

  

 N84WJ

 RV-8.Blogspot.com

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 2:58 AM, RV-List Digest Server <rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

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Today's Message Index:

----------------------



    1. 05:17 AM - Can I log PIC time  (Ralph E. Capen)

    2. 05:37 AM - Re: Can I log PIC time  (N395V)

    3. 05:59 AM - Re: Can I log PIC time  (Eric Ekberg)

     4. 06:05 AM - Re: Re: Can I log PIC time  (Ralph E. Capen)

    5. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: Can I log PIC time  (Eric Ekberg)

    6. 06:30 AM - Re: Can I log PIC time  (Rick Galati)

    7. 08:55 AM - Re: RV-6A rudder trim tab  (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)

     8. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Can I log PIC time  (Jerry Springer)

    9. 11:03 AM - RV-6 / 6a kits for sale  (Scott Kuebler)

   10. 02:29 PM - Fast 200HP RV-4 IFR For Sale $43,500  (Paul Besing)



________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________

 



Time: 05:17:25 AM PST US

From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

Subject: Can I log PIC time

Folks,



I'm getting ready for my first flight in my RV6A.  The plane's legal, the pilot's

 legal, now I want to work on the safe part...I'll be going to Georgia in a

couple of weeks to get some refresher time with Pierre.  Meanwhile, I'm trying

to figure out if I can log PIC time in other pilots' 6/7/8/9...I don't have a

 tailwheel endorsement?!



I know that the most critical times are take-off and landings - I want to practice

some stalls, turns, and  slowing down for landing etc.



Experience is experience and I already have my type sign-off.

 

Thanks,

Ralph

N822AR (at) N06 0 hrs and chomping at the bit......

________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________

Time: 05:37:11 AM PST US

Subject: Re: Can I log PIC time

 From: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com (Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com)>

I would say you neeed the tailwheel endorsement to act as and log as PIC.



I know you ar anxious to get started but do it right. In the long run there is

 no significant benefit to packing a few questionable hours in your logbook.



--------

Milt

2003 F1 Rocket

2006 Radial Rocket

Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 21589#221589[/url]

 



________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________

Time: 05:59:38 AM PST US

From: "Eric Ekberg" <etekberg(at)gmail.com (etekberg(at)gmail.com)>

 Subject: Re: Can I log PIC time



Short answer is yes, you can log PIC time w/o an endorsement as long as

someone else is "acting" as the PIC.



61.31 prohibits you to "act" as PIC in a tailwheel plane without an

 endorsement.  61.51 allows you to "log" PIC time for that portion of the

flight in which you are the sole manipulator of the controls in a plane in

which you are rated (i.e. Airplane SEL in this case).  I copied the far

 sections below for reference.



CFR Title 14, Part 61.31 excerpt



(i) *Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. *(1)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act

  as
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received

and
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airpl

ane
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized

 > instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwhee
	


l

 	  Quote: 	
		   airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuve

rs
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   and procedures:



 (i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   (ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such

 landings); and



 (iii) Go-around procedures.




	




CFR Title 14, Part 61.51 excerpt:



 	  Quote: 	
		   (e) *Logging pilot-in-command flight time. *(1) A sport, recreational,

 > private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   flight time during which that person=97



 (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the

 pilot is rated or has privileges;

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or



 (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of a

n
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type

 > certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight i
	


s

 	  Quote: 	
		   conducted.




	




On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 7:15 AM, Ralph E. Capen <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>wrot

 e:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Folks,



 I'm getting ready for my first flight in my RV6A.  The plane's legal, the

 pilot's legal, now I want to work on the safe part...I'll be going to

 Georgia in a couple of weeks to get some refresher time with Pierre.

 >  Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out if I can log PIC time in other pilot
	


s'

 	  Quote: 	
		   6/7/8/9...I don't have a tailwheel endorsement?!



 I know that the most critical times are take-off and landings - I want to

 > practice some stalls, turns, and  slowing down for landing etc.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Experience is experience and I already have my type sign-off.



 Thanks,

 Ralph

 N822AR (at) N06 0 hrs and chomping at the bit......

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

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 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________

Time: 06:05:05 AM PST US

From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen(at)earthlink.net (recapen(at)earthlink.net)>

 Subject: Re: Re: Can I log PIC time

Milt said what I was thinking.....I wasn't planning to do this instead....I'm flying

with Pierre regardless.



I already have my sign-off for the 6A - just not a tailwheel - which I probably

 should get regardless/eventually too!



--

pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pet
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Hmmm . . . I like the interpretation than despite not having a tailwheel

endorsement, signifying in my logbook that I have received sufficient

instruction in tailwheel aircraft operation to handle a tailwheel

airplane on my own as Pilot-In-Command, that I can fly a tailwheel

aircraft and log the time as long as I don't try to take off or land it.



So following this wishful interpretation of the FARs, as a single engine

pilot I could log time in a Boeing 747 as PIlot-In-Command as long as I

fly on only one engine and leave the other three shut down.  I could get

in over an hour's flight time logged at a 500 foot per minute

underpowered loss of altitude descent from 35,000 feet before we hit the

ground.



Pete Cowper

RV8 #81139

Lawyer-Pilots Bar Association member

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Can I log PIC time

You are a lawyer and write that? A 747 Is not a single engine aircraft  

even though you shut the other engines down, You are not rated to fly  

it.



Sent from my iPhone



On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:02 AM, pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pete Cowper) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hmmm . . . I like the interpretation than despite not having a  

 tailwheel

 endorsement, signifying in my logbook that I have received sufficient

 instruction in tailwheel aircraft operation to handle a tailwheel

 airplane on my own as Pilot-In-Command, that I can fly a tailwheel

 aircraft and log the time as long as I don't try to take off or land  

 it.



 So following this wishful interpretation of the FARs, as a single  

 engine

 pilot I could log time in a Boeing 747 as PIlot-In-Command as long  

 as I

 fly on only one engine and leave the other three shut down.  I could  

 get

 in over an hour's flight time logged at a 500 foot per minute

 underpowered loss of altitude descent from 35,000 feet before we hit  

 the

 ground.



 Pete Cowper

 RV8 #81139

 Lawyer-Pilots Bar Association member

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Can I log PIC time

Jerry, great catch.  A SEL is certainly different that an MEL and one

that requires a most specific type rating adds to the humor of Pete's

legalize. Busted Pete!



Happy New Year



John Cox



do not archive



--

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