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Paul Folbrecht

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Hello,



I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!



I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance.  I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22).



So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?



How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

 	  Quote: 	
		  So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? 



How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! 	




Paul, I can't raise my hand.  I was like you.  Everyone kept telling me how difficult the dreaded tail wheel is.  I fixated on it so much  it became a self fulling prophecy for me.



I then did as you plan, I found an old instructor with an old airplane and they both still worked.  I got my TW indorcement from him, then got more dual in a kitfox until I felt real comfortable.  No more problems, knock on wood.



PS, it's not the number of TW hours you have thats important...except to the insurance company...it's the number of takeoffs and landings that hones your skill.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

My hand's not up, but how's 1 in 500?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net>



 Hello,



 I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a  

 completed Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming  

 taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is  

 *not*!



 I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't  

 want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my  

 insurance.  I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now  

 and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the  

 Cirrus SR22).



 So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor,  

 and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_  

 expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?



 How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours  

 in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20632#220632

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Paul Folbrecht

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

Thanks for the replies.  I do hear from some locals that the KF is considered a *very* docile taildragger.



(But then I read here in another thread the "Two kinds of TG pilots mantra repeated...)



I will most likely be going for it... and then maybe even building one on top if it.  They're just so darn cute.   And practical.



P

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, 

and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ 

expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?



How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours 

in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  


	


OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not 

admitting to ANYTHING. O

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

I have over 7000 hrs in taildraggers with over 800 hrs in a Kitfox. I never 

had a ground loop.



Floran Higgins

Speedster

912ULS

Helena, Mt.

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

 	  Guy Buchanan wrote: 	
		  At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, 

and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ 

expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?



How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours 

in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  



	


OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not 

admitting to ANYTHING. O

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar 	




No insurance here... rather spend the money on gas and continue to push the little planes as far as I can (hopefully without breaking over the edge lol)

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

akflyerbob

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Soldotna, Alaska

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for 

AKFLYER I whould have spudded my brand new KF l on

my first flight.

To say the least they are rudder unfriendly.

Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to

own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished.

If you can fly, you will love the K F.

Bob.

_________________
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

100 hours total. 70 in my Model IV. No insurance. No ground loop... yet.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

 	  AKFLYERBOB wrote: 	
		  I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for 

AKFLYER I whould have spudded ( uh you mean teerminated with extreme prejudice) my brand new KF l on

my first flight.

To say the least they are rudder unfriendly.

Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to

own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished.

If you can fly, you will love the K F.

Bob. 	




Sorry Bob, had to go for a slight correction there LOL



Bob is right, I have never flown a plane quite as fun as his kitfox.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

We ground looped once. My son was the PIC. We did a perfect landing on asphalt that ended in a 270 degrees spin. Then we found out that we also broke the tailwheel spring. First thought was that the ground loop broke the spring but then it became evident that it was the opposite. The single spring leaf of my Kitfox 3 broke after about 950 landings and without tailwheel ... we did a ground loop.



The spring is now replaced by a double leaf one.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as a PAX



<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

I'll edit my post my saying 1 g'loop in 500 hours sole, consisting of  

1315 landings. My hour count is down due to nearly 2 months down with  

engine repair. The one loop was caused by hurrying to turn around to  

see why the police were gathering at the approach end to the  

runway...it was a Piper low-wing that had overrun the runway and  

collected some fence across the road. As the old saying goes..."ya  

gotta keep flying it right up to the hangar"...and I didn't....no  

damage except to Charley...(Pride). Insurance?  Liability only.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Lynn C Who do you have your liability insurance with? I'll need the same come spring.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rock



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?

 Date: Tue C 23 Dec 2008 09:22:13 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 I'll edit my post my saying 1 g'loop in 500 hours sole C consisting of 

 1315 landings. My hour count is down due to nearly 2 months down with 

 engine repair. The one loop was caused by hurrying to turn around to 

 see why the police were gathering at the approach end to the 

 runway...it was a Piper low-wing that had overrun the runway and 

 collected some fence across the road. As the old saying goes..."ya 

 gotta keep flying it right up to the hangar"...and I didn't....no 

 damage except to Charley...(Pride). Insurance? Liability only.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 596+ hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after rebuild C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition 

 system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 

 

 

 

&gt=
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Avemco..interesting story....it was requested that all fliers in the  

"Homebuilt Review" at Oshkosh in 2007 have insurance, and show proof  

of it, so I hightailed it down to the friendly folks at the Avemco  

booth, and signed up right then and there. The next morning, I showed  

them proof of insurance (they were just going to ask, but not demand  

proof, they later told me) and got ready to fly. That was when the  

damned engine had flooded due to taxiing behind slower planes and my  

carb wasn't liking that, and upon trying to restart after a long  

wait, I couldn't get it to start and killed the battery, and couldn't  

fly that year...bummer. But I had the insurance and that was a good  

thing.



Now for the shameless plug for having an Electroair direct fire  

ignition system...once I got the flooding sucked through the engine,  

and I think the fuel mixture was "fireable", the battery was  

groaning, and a Jabiru needs 300 rpm to excite their ignition. Now I  

have the Electroair, and it needs to crank at a rate of only 80 rpm  

to fire the ignition. I would've been in fat city if I had the  

Electroair a year earlier.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 23, 2008, at 11:37 AM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Who do you have your liability insurance with? I'll need the  

 same come spring.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rock

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Whether or not you ground loop your plane depends on the type of flying you

do.  If you are sgressive than the chances of a groundloop or engine out

will increase.  If you fly well within your limits be prepared and if

nothing happens in your flying career you will know you did something right.



Someone once said having a good career is like having two bags One full of

luck, the other empty but labelled experience.  The trick is to use common

sense to fill the experience bag before the luck runs out.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A

Aerocet 1100 floats

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rrtrack(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

400 plus hours in many different tail wheel aircraft without a ground loop. Having a good tailwheel that stays locked helps.

Mark

Kitox 5



On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net (paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Folbrecht" <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net (paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net)>

  

 Hello,

 

 I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 

 I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance.  I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22).

  

 So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it at *some* point?

 

 How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20632#220632]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 20632#220632[/url]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 [b]

kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!



 So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 ground-loop it at *some* point?



 How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  


	


The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.



1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.



2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.



3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.



4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.



5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.



My own observations:



Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.



You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.



JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. 

I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. 

Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. 

I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! 

Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

31/12/2008 05:50 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Everybody ground loops? 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

700 hrs in Kitfox - one landing with a flat tire and know ground loops to date! 

Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

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John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

31/12/2008 05:50 PM 

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    Subject

 Everybody ground loops? 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I have seen ground loops are not an issue for serious pilots.

For those who just stay marginally current and fail stay ahead of the
	


aircraft however it is a real issue.



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