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Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Lynn sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...when I flew my Kitfox taildragger to New York to visit the Old 

Rhinebeck Aerodrome...they asked me if it was a taildragger and I 

told them yes it was, and they said come on in. They had an incident 

with a nosegear plane and their insurance company said no more nose 

gears, thank you.


	


I find that very hard to swallow (but I'll admit that the 

taildraggers just seem "right" at a place like Old Rhinebeck). 

That's like saying they had a problem with an airplane that had 

upholstered seats so now you have to sit on a wood plank.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  Besides, a nose gear plane landing at a field where conventional 

gear WWI planes are flying?


	


There's nothing conventional about taildraggers.  If "conventional" 

refers to the origins of powered flight, the earliest aircraft had 

skids or tricycle or even quad wheel arrangements for the first 

several years.  On the other hand, if the term refers to what is most 

common, that would surely be tricycle gear airplanes in this day and 

age.  Maybe its just the conventional use of the term "conventional," 

which would, of course, be taildraggers.  



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Mike,

  You ever been into Rhinebeck?  It is basically a slightly modified pasture 

with variations up and down probably 20'.  Innteresting. I probably wouldn't 

go in there with anything that lands over 40mph.    Larry Huntley



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Yes, I have been there. I agree, a Kitfox is the biggest, heaviest  

thing I'd take in there!



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200, Speedster

Phoenix, AZ



On Dec 31, 2008, at 4:02 PM, "Larry Huntley" <asq(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 <asq(at)roadrunner.com>



 Mike,

 You ever been into Rhinebeck?  It is basically a slightly modified  

 pasture with variations up and down probably 20'.  Innteresting. I  

 probably wouldn't go in there with anything that lands over  

 40mph.    Larry Huntley



 ---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Here's a shot down the flightline at Old Rhinebeck a few months ago. The

Fokker Triplane is a replica but is fun to watch flying. They also have a

Wright Flyer and Bleriot from 1910, both also replicas but I've seen an

original 1910 Bleriot fly at the Shuttleworth Collection in the UK. Don't

get me wrong, I will drool equally over a new glass-cockpit LSA!



Do not archive

Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

I found the term "conventional" rather strange too, when I first  

heard it applied to taildraggers. At first I thought the book "Taming  

the taildragger" was referring to nose gear when they mentioned  

"conventional gear", but I was wrong. For some reason this tag has  

stuck, even though most gear nowadays is the nose gear.

Apparently Rhinebeck...according to the guy who walked the field with  

me the day before I flew in there.....had a nose gear come in there  

and being the field that it is, with a rock or two here and there,  

and slightly undulating, and being grass, the plane bent, broke, or  

otherwise hurt the nose wheel, and thus the rule.

So THAT'S the reason for the wooden planks, eh? : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive

On Dec 31, 2008, at 5:08 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 Lynn sez:

> ...when I flew my Kitfox taildragger to New York to visit the Old  

> Rhinebeck Aerodrome...they asked me if it was a taildragger and I  

> told them yes it was, and they said come on in. They had an  

> incident with a nosegear plane and their insurance company said no  

> more nose gears, thank you.

 I find that very hard to swallow (but I'll admit that the  

 taildraggers just seem "right" at a place like Old Rhinebeck).  

 That's like saying they had a problem with an airplane that had  

 upholstered seats so now you have to sit on a wood plank.  

> Besides, a nose gear plane landing at a field where conventional  

> gear WWI planes are flying?

 There's nothing conventional about taildraggers.  If "conventional"  

 refers to the origins of powered flight, the earliest aircraft had  

 skids or tricycle or even quad wheel arrangements for the first  

 several years.  On the other hand, if the term refers to what is  

 most common, that would surely be tricycle gear airplanes in this  

 day and age.  Maybe its just the conventional use of the term  

 "conventional," which would, of course, be taildraggers.  

 Mike G.

 N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

 Phoenix, AZ

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Not to be outdone by Old Man Brennan (kidding, Bob), here's a couple  

of early morning shots at Rhinebeck





Lynn

do not archive

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Funny how similar your paint scheme is to this Old Rhinebeck favorite, all

you need now to do is add a few more wings. And not mind being called an

"old fokker".



Oh no, I'm giving him more ideas!



Do not archive

Old man bob 



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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

Better to be called an old Fokker than a dead Fokker. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:42 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Funny how similar your paint scheme is to this Old Rhinebeck  

 favorite, all

 you need now to do is add a few more wings. And not mind being  

 called an

 "old fokker".



 Oh no, I'm giving him more ideas!



 Do not archive

 Old man bob

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

The first Fokker was the "SPIN" Dutch for spider, this was the first, The 

mother Fokker.



see Mikael fly his new DR1 with original engine,



http://www.aerodrome.nu/

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everyb

I think the term conventional came from WW1 when most plane on both sides

had tailwheels...  The reasons were there were few if any truly level

landing fields (areodromes).  



My father mentioned to me that a nose wheel will tend to dig in if it hits

even a small hole while as tail wheel will pull itself out of the same hole.

That's why all the great bush planes of the past, Baevers, Otters and

Norsemen were all conventional gear.  They also were easier to fit with

skis.  If there was a perceived weak point it was the conventional gear

planes were often reinforced around the instrument panel to be fitted to

floats.  Even my 'Fox has a reinforcing Y under the plane to strengthen it

on floats. 



Older planes were at best slow planes.  Having a nice small wheel in the

back twenty feet from the prop made a lot more sense than having a honking

great wheel and support blocking the wash from a few inches behind the prop.



I think, but am not sure, that the first major use of  tricycle gear planes

was for bombers.  Engines were either pusher or out on the wings so the drag

wasn't as great a factor.  And in later years retractable gear became the

norm so drag was no longer an issue.  My best guess would be the tricycle

configuration was originally developed not because it was easier to land but

because it would be easier to load bombs in the bay if the plane was level.

Consider trying to load a bomb bay in say a DC-3 or a trimotor...  The bombs

would have to be lifted in place and tilted up to fit.  At the same time

most fighters were the conventional more aerodynamic gear and any bombs they

carrier were smaller and mounted outside under the wings.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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