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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

This is the day for confession's, eh?



I ground looped my Series 5 on pavement, with 8.50x6 tires, on a windy

gusty day. No damage other than to my ego. My hangar neighbors

groundlooped their Luscombe. The Supercub driver in the next row 

of hangars from mine ground looped his supercub. Another kitfox

driver I know has groundlooped his three times. My taildragger instructor

groundlooped a Citabria ...



Actually almost every taildragger driver I know who flies frequently has

groundlooped. The only damage that I know of in all the above was to

the luscombe. The other kitfox driver messed up a wheel pant, but 

otherwise no other damage.



I think the honest truth is that it's likely if you fly taildraggers that

it will happen to you one day. 



On the other hand I've seen a lot of trigears that got nose strut damage

from bad landings as well, particularly C182's. So nothing in flying is

completely without risk.



Regards,

Jeff

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

Hull insurance rates for Taildraggers are significantly higher than they are for tricycle gear airplanes.  The numbers have bee there for many years, if you fly a taildragger, you run a much higher risk of damaging your airplane, period.   There is a good reason that the vast majority of airplanes manufactured today are tricycle gear.



I have flown taildraggers a lot, and never even close to a ground loop.   But when I ordered my Kitfox list, there was no question that I would build it with tricycle gear.   I find the tailwheel to limiting in crosswinds.  I can comfortably land a tricycle gear airplane in much greater crosswinds without the risk of damaging the airplane than I can a taildragger.  I have nothing to prove and could care less about impressing anyone by flying a taildragger, I want what works best - Tricycle Gear.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

On Wed, December 31, 2008 7:45 am, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hull insurance rates for Taildraggers are significantly higher than they are for

 tricycle gear airplanes.  The numbers have bee there for many years, if you fly a

 taildragger,


	


I believe you're correct although it might not be so much the gear configuration as

the intended use and purpose of the aircraft. Thinking about the reasons for selecting

a conventional gear plane vs a tricycle gear the first thing that comes to mind is

getting more prop clearance. You don't need that on a paved runway. You need it on

tall grass and gravel and rough runways. Of course there are several more reasons,

most of which point to the intended use is landing and take-offs on rough, short, and

un-improved runways. So, it might not be the gear selection but rather the aircraft

purpose that represents the risk. One way to compare that is if you looked at

conventional gear aircraft with fancy wheel pants and compared their accident rates to

those of aircraft of the same type with tricycle gear, I'd be willing to bet that

there wasn't near the difference in hull insurance claims. After all, the difference

is nil when in flight.



 	  Quote: 	
		   you run a much higher risk of damaging your airplane, period.   There is

 a good reason that the vast majority of airplanes manufactured today are tricycle

 gear.


	


While I agree in concept, you need to be careful developing the defining risk. While

this is fact when applied to *ALL* pilots and aircraft as a group, it isn't as

relevant to a particular pilot who is accomplished with conventional gear. For

example, select large group of very experienced conventional gear operators and

compare their accident rates with that same group's experience in tricycle aircraft

and probably the difference if any is less than what it is for the public at large.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I have flown taildraggers a lot, and never even close to a ground loop.   But when I

 ordered my Kitfox list, there was no question that I would build it with tricycle

 gear.   I find the tailwheel to limiting in crosswinds.  I can comfortably land a

 tricycle gear airplane in much greater crosswinds without the risk of damaging the

 airplane than I can a taildragger.


	


That shows that you selected the gear configuration based on the most important

anticipated operating condition too. Greater crosswind capability and comfort was more

important than propeller clearance.



It would be interesting to look at actual flight test info such as can be found in the

operator's manual for a C170 vs C172 or a C182 vs a C185. I believe that I once saw

the comparison for max crosswind capability for the latter comparison. Something like

15 knots vs 15-20 knots. In both cases, I believe pilots regularly exceed those

numbers anyhow.



 	  Quote: 	
		    I have nothing to prove and could care less about

 impressing anyone by flying a taildragger, I want what works best - Tricycle Gear.


	


There is another factor in the selection too, that is aesthetics. When I look at a

C-140, I visualize beauty in design. I don't get that feeling when looking at a

Tomahawk or a C-152. Just like I like the looks of a Harley Fatboy far more than that

of a high performance cafe racer. I like the purpose of my tail dragger selection

better too. Rugged, off airport performance. That purpose is probably far riskier than

the fact it's a tail dragger.



When that aspect came up during the demo flight of my airplane in Muskegon, Al Pike

was the pilot and I was just the passenger. He landed the airplane touching down at

the intersection of intersecting runways lined up in the direction to experience the

greatest crosswind. He touched down right at the intersection and induced what you'd

think would be a ground loop, sliding the aircraft on its main gear swinging the tail

downwind and coming to a complete stop, nose into the wind at a distance less than the

width of the runway. I was convinced that even a botched landing would be pretty safe.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Paul,



I am a taildragger driver and much prefer it to the tricycle gear airplanes

I have trained on, but I have to question your statement below in defense of

taildraggers - "more prop clearance". I know it is possible to take off with

the tail still on the ground, and the favored landing is a "3-pointer", but

I think most taildraggers will raise the tail asap on takeoff, for me that's

usually less than 2 seconds into the roll. So for most of my takeoff roll,

most of the time, it is rolling the same as a tricycle gear in terms of prop

clearance.



I can hear your response as "Ah, but you have the choice" and also recall

soft-field training in a tricycle with the yoke in my lap to get the

nosewheel out of the grass/mud asap. So maybe a better point would be that

taildraggers always offer soft-field short-field performance? Also -

wouldn't rolling with the tail down in a taildragger be somewhat

counterproductive due to the large increase in drag due to the high

angle-of-attack and not travelling inline with the thrust vector?



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a taildragger-lover, on which lady-friends might agree - enquiring

minds want to know...
	




Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

Paul wrote a very good article addressing some valid points, but it does not change the reality.  A Cessna 140 Taildragger is much more likely to be damaged in landings than a Cessna 150 Tricycle gear plane.  Just check the insurance rates that are based on many years of accident data if you doubt this fact.



As far as ground loops in ktifoxes, just do a search  here on Matronics on " Ground Loop " and see how many Kitfoxes have had major damage due to being ground loops -  Its a common way to destroy or do major damage to a Kitfox, and they were all taildraggers.  Many more Kitfoxes have been in ground loops and been lucky enough to avoid damage, its a roll of the dice....



As far as limitations, I and the vast majority of people never fly off of grass so high that need the extra prop clearance of a taildrgger.   The limitation that we VERY OFTEN run into is crosswinds, and crosswinds are much better handled by a tricycle gear airplane.   With a tricycle gear airplane, I can fly on many more days of the year than I can with a taildragger when there is a significant crosswind.  I have owned both taildraggers and Nosewheel airplanes, and seen the limitations and benefits of each.  Tricycle gear won hands down when it was time to chose which one would be on my Kitfox.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have owned both taildraggers and Nosewheel airplanes, and seen the

limitations and benefits of each.  Tricycle gear won hands down when it was
	


time to chose which one would be on my Kitfox.



That's why there are more tricycle gear airplanes out there than tailwheel,

most people's flying skills and requirements are better served by tricycle

gear. Same thing with gear-shift cars, most US cars are automatic

transmissions, but give me a roadster with 5 on the floor any day for sheer

driving fun. Different horses for different courses.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as ground loops in ktifoxes, just do a search  here on Matronics on

" Ground Loop " and see how many Kitfoxes have had major damage due to being
	


ground loops...  and they were all taildraggers.



Do a search for "front wheel collapse" and you won't find any taildraggers

in there either! (meant as a joke Mike, but duh)



Anyone have real data on insurance rates? I am paying just over $1000/yr for

full hull insurance and 1/2m$ liability with $100k for a passenger, from

Falcon. Obviously I did not quote on non-taildragger but does anyone have a

similar non-taildragger policy to compare? Mike do you have insurance and

what are you paying for what coverage if you don't mind my asking? I would

be interested to know.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

On Wed, December 31, 2008 12:14 pm, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Paul wrote a very good article addressing some valid points, but it does not change

 the reality.  A Cessna 140 Taildragger is much more likely to be damaged in landings

 than a Cessna 150 Tricycle gear plane.  Just check the insurance rates that are based

 on many years of accident data if you doubt this fact.


	


I have no doubt that you're right. However, for many of us, the perceived advantages

outweigh the perceived risk. Besides, when I look at a C140, it just looks like an

airplane should look. I love the slope from the peak at the leading edge of the wings

to the tail. I occasionally rent a 1946 C140. It has the original mohair interior and

the ring on a chain you pull to start it. You can spin it around on a dime. It's not

very powerful though and it always seems like such a struggle to get it airborne. The

owners don't want you taking off on the paved runway as they feel it is safer on the

grass. At my experience level, I don't agree since the grass runway is sort of a

sequence of rolling hills you bounce your way through while it gets airborne.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as ground loops in ktifoxes, just do a search  here on Matronics on " Ground

 Loop " and see how many Kitfoxes have had major damage due to being ground loops -

 Its a common way to destroy or do major damage to a Kitfox, and they were all

 taildraggers.  Many more Kitfoxes have been in ground loops and been lucky enough to

 avoid damage, its a roll of the dice....


	


I'd say your recommendation is to get a your Kitfox with tricycle gear. That would be

based on higher probability of severe damage and hence higher hull insurance cost

together with being a little more capable of handling crosswinds, especially gusty

ones.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As far as limitations, I and the vast majority of people never fly off of grass so

 high that need the extra prop clearance of a taildrgger.


	


I would bet that is true. But what about the destination that might not even be an

airfield? I want to land in the wheat stubble on a farm in Eastern Washington or on

the gravel banks along the Snake River or on a mountain ridge in high altitude Nevada

in the sage brush as destinations. I think the big tires and rugged landing gear on my

Merlin are ideal for that. It has some characteristics that differ from a Kitfox, it

has a lower stall speed, takes off and lands in a shorter distance and has a much

lower wing loading so it is rough riding in even light turbulence, flies slower and

has a lower cruise speed with the same power setting. The design is somewhat more

rugged but far less refined than the KF. The wings are removable but far from

convenient and even with two guys, you have your hands full doing so.



 	  Quote: 	
		     The limitation that we VERY

 OFTEN run into is crosswinds, and crosswinds are much better handled by a tricycle

 gear airplane.   With a tricycle gear airplane, I can fly on many more days of the

 year than I can with a taildragger when there is a significant crosswind.


	


Around here, the limitation to flying is more often below minimums for VFR than it is

crosswinds. So you probably wouldn't weigh crosswind capability here as high as in a

vicinity that has prevailing higher wind velocities.



 	  Quote: 	
		    I have

 owned both taildraggers and Nosewheel airplanes, and seen the limitations and benefits

 of each.  Tricycle gear won hands down when it was time to chose which one would be on

 my Kitfox.


	


A wise choice, considering safety and your purposes. You get to fly more and have

lower insurance cost.



Being the idiot I am, I have no hull insurance, feel a great deal of pride in flying a

tail dragger, like the looks better and purposely choose destinations for exploring,

hiking, picture taking and fishing that I could have never taken my Turbo Arrow. I get

thrills out of doing a circular takeoff on a sandy beach or gravel bar and landing in

the deep soft powdery dirt in the wheat stubble in Eastern Washington. There you don't

worry much about a crosswind either, point the nose into the direction of the wind and

go that way. I would be willing to guess that flying off floats is probably even

higher risk than as a tail dragger but I plan on doing that too. It might be easier to

switch from floats to wheels in a conventional configuration too.



This is a great thread. I hope to hear more preferences and experiences. Gets me

excited just thinking about it!



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

I've only flown taildraggers for the past 6-7 years, except a month ago

I flew a Diamond DA20. It's in the blood, you can't really discuss the

pro's and con's of this versus that. If you fly a taildragger, you'll figure

out that you either like them or you don't. I love mine, I don't hate 

trikes by any means, but the Kitfox with the wheel in the back is the 

one I like best.



Maybe I'm just wierd, but they're what I like so that's what I fly. I

get a feeling of great satisfaction, out of every squirrely rudder pedaling

landing, and wouldn't trade it for anything. Especially if it's on a muddy 

unpaved runway.



I think if I were flying a plane like I drive a car, to get from here to there

day in and day out, I'd prefer a low wing trike. But for fun, which is

what all my flying is, I greatly like high wing tailwheel's.



Regards,

Jeff Hays

Series-5 IO-240B Taildragger

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Well, I accepted the challenge and searched the archives for "groundloop" 

and I confess I didn't read every one of the 97 posts as most were advice on 

how to avoid them.  I did find one post where a guy was asking for help in 

finding parts for a wing that was damaged.   On a related issue, I know that 

there have been nosewheel strut failures on more than one Kitfox.  I did try 

to research that as well, but as is often the case now, not many folks put 

the "do not archive" in a chatty post, so a challenge to check the archives 

is fraught with frustration and will prove less than nothing about any 

subject.



If  Mike has in fact checked the archives and found more than my one 

incident, I would welcome some more data.  The last time this subject became 

a serious issue on the list was the time we started the survey on what 

everyone was flying building etc.  and what we found was that there were 96 

tailwheel airplanes on the list, 11 with nose gear and 7 on floats.  The 

significance is this.  There would have to be about 9 tailwheel issues for 

each nosewheel issue for the numbers to be significant.  I am virtually 

certain that there were at least two nose strut collapses.  The challenge is 

then to find eighteen tailwheel failures, or groundloops that would result 

in the relative amount of damage a nosewheel collapse or groundloop would 

cause.



For relative significance, I am reprinting a post from Nov, 2006.



Anytime when I am asked about airplane choices, my first answer is a

question - "What will it's mission be?"



I agree that failures of the tailwheel spring has largely outnumbered the

failures of the nose gear.  Without getting into the relative numbers of

tailwheel vs. nose wheel Kitfoxes and statictics, I am aware personally of a

tailwheel failure that bent the lower tubing on the rudder requiring the

removel of the fabric, straightening of the tubing and recovering.  I

suspect that is about the most you would expect of this type of failure.

Actually the airplane remained airworthy and was flyable.  Getting out and

home from wherever it would happen would be possible with a simple skid made

from what is available or better yet a spare spring in the misc. bag.



On the other hand I doubt a nose wheel failure would be as simple and

undoubtedly if it happened in a remote area, I suspect a remote fix would be

necessary or maybe a trailering out if possible and a much more intensive

repair depending on extent of damage which could range from a prop

replacement to cowl, engine, engine mount or fuselage fixes.  Also consider

engine out sutuations where the landing site might be far from ideal.



I remember this post from Darin a bit ago and it pretty much expains what I

am trying to say.



"The reason I flew my Model III as a tailwheel and will fly my Series 7 in

tailwheel configuration was confirmed by an incident  my buddy had about a

month ago while landing at a realatively benign strip in the Idaho

backcountry...he was in his 182.



In short, he went into this strip (which he had been into numerous times

before) to camp with some friends and do some fishing.  On Sunday they got

up to fly home and decided to walk the strip once before starting the

takeoff roll.  The reason for the walk was to pickout all major gopher

holes.  They made a thourough inspection and marked all major holes then

began their taxi to the downwind side of the strip.  During this taxi, a

hole that was not seen in the previous inspection swallowed his nose wheel

and he had a pretty major prop strike!  His 182 is still in the A&P's hanger

and is going through a complete teardown (he is consequently considering a

full rebuild to 0-time the engine) and while the insurance is covering a

major part of it, it is still a major cost to him in dollars and lost flying

time."



I believe amid the opinions, there are some things that could come close to

being considered facts.  And the relative difficulty one can get themsleves

into with that third wheel is real.  Scuffed wingtips or a bent rudder is

minor compared...



do not archive.



Lowell

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

When I had my tailwheel spring (2 leaf) break, and the tail dragged,  

I was VERY glad it wasn't a failure of the support of the other  

option for the "3rd wheel."

My prop got further from the ground, not INTO it.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 31, 2008, at 9:45 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The challenge is then to find eighteen tailwheel failures, or  

 groundloops that would result in the relative amount of damage a  

 nosewheel collapse or groundloop would cause.



 Lowell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

No, Jeff.  Not weird.  Many of us feel the same way.  Nothing wrong with 

nose draggers, but nothing wrong with tail draggers either.  Just a matter 

of preference and like someone said, "I prefer a stick over automatic". 

Both have pros and cons and one can haggle back and forth until the cows 

come home, but the end result is that it's just a matter of preference.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.  I’m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.  Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate.   Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring every annual.  

It may not be perfect but it’s better than ripping up your rudder.  

Noel  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?  

 I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. 

 I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. 

 Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. 

 I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! 

 Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

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 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

   John Allen   <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>    

Sent by:   owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

   31/12/2008   05:50 PM 

   Please respond   to

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To               

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cc                            

Subject               

Kitfox-List:     Everybody ground loops?               

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

 ============

 --

 Gifts!)

 on

 about

            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ============

 Forum -

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Another way to insure not ripping up your rudder....if anything is  

SURE....is to install a dual main-leaf tailwheel spring, with or  

without a helper/booster spring leaf. These are known as 3-leaf  

springs, and available from John and Debra McBean. These springs have  

both of the main leafs (leaves?) bolted at both ends, thus insuring  

(there's that word again) that if one main leaf fails the other will  

hold the tailwheel in place...unless you've really p-ssed off Lady Luck.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

On Jan 1, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular  

 intervals.  I’m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work  

 on ferrous metals.  Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to  

 mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate.   Dye penetrant should  

 work same as flux... check the spring every annual.

 It may not be perfect but it’s better than ripping up your rudder.

 Noel

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- 

 list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

 I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I  

 had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of  

 course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump.

 I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to  

 get out and see the damage to my rudder.

 Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and  

 there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the  

 ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before  

 each flight so there was little or no warning.

 I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week!

 Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we  

 have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe  

 and happy Christmas".

 John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 31/12/2008 05:50 PM

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 cc

 Subject

 Everybody ground loops?

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a  

 completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger- 

 proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD  

 instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_  

 expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc.  

 hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to  

 answer the question you pose for someone considering transition  

 from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think  

 it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have  

 flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one  

 landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are  

 involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove  

 gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear,  

 stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube  

 gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare  

 (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed  

 to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose  

 when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground  

 plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster  

 due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I,  

 II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align  

 my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I  

 have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.   

 Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your  

 shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of  

 brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get  

 an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to  

 fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never  

 changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800;  

 the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can  

 grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest  

 an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and  

 condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).   

 Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).   

 Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will  

 leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't  

 want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).   

 Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to  

 be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not  

 overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate  

 speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and  

 what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until  

 rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority  

 at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail  

 early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and  

 landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in  

 control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength  

 of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not  

 always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.   

 Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel,  

 wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as  

 apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail  

 harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.   

 Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while  

 moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find  

 your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the  

 past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It  

 was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out  

 why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an  

 instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in  

 our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add  

 a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same,  

 since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly,  

 takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A  

 Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by  

 comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a  

 light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to  

 do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will  

 consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice  

 good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with  

 varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the  

 list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed  

 aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep  

 current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience  

 increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course,  

 riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present  

 you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared  

 to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving  

 of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out  

 of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

 ============

 --

 Gifts!)

 on

 about

            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ============

 Forum -

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ============

 WEB FORUMS -

 ============

   http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ 

 Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Noel 

I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper (shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure. 

I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners. 

I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated from below  the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring. 

I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am going to change them biannually. 

Regards 

Gary 

 Gary Algate 

Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

02/01/2009 12:07 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: Everybody ground loops? 

Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.  I’m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.  Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate.   Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring every annual. 

It may not be perfect but it’s better than ripping up your rudder. 

Noel 

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Everybody ground loops? 

 I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. 

 I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. 

 Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. 

 I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! 

 Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

 John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>  

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 31/12/2008 05:50 PM 

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   

    To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com    cc

    Subject

 Everybody ground loops? 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

 ============

 --

 Gifts!)

 on

 about

            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ============

 Forum -

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ============

 WEB FORUMS -

 ============

http://www.matronics.com/contribution 

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 

http://forums.matronics.com 

[b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

The whole point of NDT... Non Destructive Testing... is it will pick up cracks that you couldn’t see with a microscope.  You aren’t alone in saying the break came as a complete surprise and there is no doubt that multiple leaves will beat thicker leaves in every case.  Older army jeep lovers will attest that the multi-multi leaf springs on some of the old , I think they were Ford built, Jeeps out preformed the thicker springs on the GM and Willys produced units hands down.  

With NDT even the thinnest, otherwise invisible cracks will show up.  I was wondering if anyone does regular NDT testing of their tail springs.  With the number of breaks listed here I would think it would be a good thing to check occasionally, especially considering none of the NDT  processes will break the bank and they can show cracks below the surface of the metal.    

The Magnetic flux and eddy current machines are expensive and require quite a bit of expertise to operate.  If there is someone in your area using one, they’re common enough, it would be a five minute test for them.  Dye penetrant is cheaper but won’t show sub surface cracks like the other tests but it will get into any surface crack even one much too thin to see with the naked eye. Once the dye has been applied the part is inspected with a black light where any cracks will fluoresce.  Be aware though this stuff is designed to get into the smallest of spaces and I’ve seen guys who had dye penetrant pass right through heavy clothing.  Not all dye penetrant is fluorescing and the non fluorescing ones are amazing how they will pass right through layers of heavy clothing.  

Noel  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 2:05 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Everybody ground loops?  

 Noel 

 I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper (shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure. 

 I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners. 

 I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated from below  the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring. 

 I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am going to change them biannually. 

 Regards 

 Gary 

 Gary Algate 

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

   "Noel   Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>    

Sent by:   owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

   02/01/2009   12:07 PM 

   Please respond   to

   kitfox-list(at)matronics.com                        

To               

<kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>                            

cc                            

Subject               

RE:     Everybody ground loops?               

 Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.  I’m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.  Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate.   Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring every annual. 

 It may not be perfect but it’s better than ripping up your rudder. 

 Noel 

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Everybody ground loops? 

 I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. 

 I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. 

 Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. 

 I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! 

 Gary

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".           

   John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>    

Sent by:   owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

   31/12/2008 05:50 PM 

   Please respond to

   kitfox-list(at)matronics.com          

To               

kitfox-list(at)matronics.com                            

cc                            

Subject               

Kitfox-List:     Everybody ground loops?               

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Allen <kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com>

 In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht(at)veribox.net> who wrote:

 > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed

 > Fox (TD).  I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is

 > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!

 >

 > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and

 > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to

 > ground-loop it at *some* point?

 >

 > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in

 > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand!  

 The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox.  I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur.  I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing.  It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order.

 1. Design of the aircraft.  Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox).  Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).  Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).  Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.  Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane).  Landing speed, slower is better.  Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower.

 2. Construction of Aircraft.  Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear).  Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now).  Proper angle of tailwheel.  Tailwheel spring slack.  Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that).  Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak).  Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first).  Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine).  Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.

 3. Maintenance of Aircraft.  Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one.  Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat.  Alignment (of tube gear).  Tailwheel condition.  Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break).  Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering).  Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).  Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.

 4. Experience of pilot.  Comfort level in the aircraft.  Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.  Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts.  Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early).  Adding rudder with throttle.  Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.  Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.  This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind.  Techniques for gusts.  Mountain strips.  Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.

 5. Operation.  Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast.  CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing.  Keeping controls free.  Taxiing technique with wind.  Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.  S-turns.  Pilot condition.  You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times.

 My own observations:

 Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first.  It was not for beginners, the way it was set up.  I never found out why.  The Grove gear finally tamed it.  It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes.  The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume.  Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear.  A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison.  The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch.  It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it.  You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.

 You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list.  If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.  Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier.  Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired.  It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.

 JA KF IV Speedster (at) O70

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

I find this type of failure very interesting.  Someone may correct my 

thinking, but this spring design is very common in ground transportation. 

Truck leaf springs are usually constructed of several leaves of ever longer 

lengths with the terminal on both ends a single leaf usually wound into a 

tube that a bushing and bolt is inserted through to attatch to a shackle 

then to the frame.



What is wrong with our system that failures are as common as they are. 

Could it be that the supplier needs to check his heat treating temps a bit 

better?  With the number of vehicles out there with essentially this set-up, 

why don't we see more broken springs on the side of the road.  And before 

someone suggests the impact of landing on the spring, wait until you drive 

over California's highways paved in potholes.



Regarding a stress riser,  I agree with Gary that this may be part of the 

issue.  The only Grove tailspring failure I am personally familiar with was 

right at the forward edge of the tailwheel attachment - a squared off sharp 

edge.  On my pickiup there is a plastic disk at the end of the aux leaf to, 

I suppose, spread the stress over three or so inches rather than at the 

immediate end of the aux leaf.



Lowell

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

Lowell you are close on your appraisal of the automotive leaf springs.  They

too break especially if you let me run the Jeep they are in over a power

corridor.  There is a slight difference though only one end of the leaf is

attached directly to the frame of the auto.  The other end usually the back

of a rear axle and the front of a front axle is attached to a shackle that

allows the spring to get longer as the curve is pressed out of it.  In the

automotive spring the bending occurs more or less evenly the whole length of

the spring while on the plane the bending is concentrated most right where

the aft bolt holds the spring in place and where the tail wheel bolt passes

through the spring. 



I think there are a few things to do to try to keep tail spring breaks to a

minimum.  One is the NDT that I've mentioned before another is to keep

sprung weight on the tail to a minimum.  Weights on the tail wheels or the

lower part of the spring (un-sprung weight) will be more effective for

balancing the plane and will also reduce stresses on the tail spring.

Multiple springs also work to spread the bending over a wider area of the

main leaf thus reducing the stresses on any one point.



Noel



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

OK..My hand is up...but very hesitantly... 

about 200 hours in my Speedster IV so far...and no Ground-loops...but I did touch a wingtip on pavement once at about 50 hours in it...whew...close! (not much wind that day either)



I learned to fly in 150s in Oklahoma in the 70's...always windy there, so I got accustomed to wind early on. Since then have flown many types, and a few different  taildraggers. Also currently Own a  Luscombe 8A.

Stopped logging my hours a few years back. 



My first flight in a fox was when I purchased this one..1st experimental out of 5 I have owned I didn't build. Actually, never even rode in one prior. My impression that day...and it was calm winds.."wow...what a squirrelly sucker this is on the ground...must be set up wrong."

So I checked the gear alignment...rudder linkages...everything I could think of...it all looked ok..hmmm..must be me.  Stayed off the pavement for many hours... trying very hard to master the ground handling of this short coupled..narrow geared bird. At 50 hours I figgered I had it..but then the wingtip touch on landing...GULP..

I had another Kitfox owner/pilot hangered right next to me, and he made it look so easy. His was a long wing , 582 powered babe and he was without a doubt a much better pilot than I...I didnt know where or when He started, but he flew PBYs from Hawaii during ww-2 , and since they started giving him trouble about medicals..flew a gryo and  a Z-max and the Fox frequently...the man loved flying and was as smooth as I have seen to date.

After 30 years am I loosing it? I thought...when My buddy has near 60 and he still puts me to shame?

Then...2 things happened. I scared my wife on a takeoff at a fly-in we attended...and...My buddy...he ground-looped his long-wing and put it in the corn next to a turf runway and broke it near in two. IT was HIS first ground-loop. Yea..I know..he is pretty old, cant walk well and maybe he just got behind it...but....

I was on the phone to Grove the next week...and ordered their conversion. Time in this bird since I got it by the way was 105 hrs.

I didn't want to sell it because in the air...its the most fun aircraft I have ever owned. I absolutely love the way this thing flys..I just don't like the way it drives! I love the power of this 80 hp rotax and its short feild takeoff..top speed and economy...everything...but when its on the ground.

Since the wider Grove gear installation..have had no incidents and it seems to be much more docile on the ground. (unless after over 200 hrs in it now am finally learning) Still not for those who don't pay attention. Compared to my Luscombe, the kitfox is still a handfull even with the Grove gear. My wife...well she still flys with me, and a comment she made after a few trips with the new gear as we were taxing to the hanger.."Well...I guess it was worth all that money YOU SPENT on those new wheel things. You are doing much better on those landings". "You havent scared me once this year".

I thought to myself...Yet.....hehe.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: Everybody ground loops?

When I was training the instructor wanted me to fly one day the winds were

around 25/35.  I said once licensed I would stay on the ground on such a day

but I could see that I should be able to handle that wind.  Just as we

reached rotation speed a big gust hit us from the from the front starboard

quarter.  As soon as it did the plane ballooned to the left but I had

already input lots of down elevator and full right aileron. When the gust

ended the right main touched the runway again and we lifted off.  To say it

was bumpy that day would be an understatement.  We landed on a different

runway more into the gusts and a little cross to the normal winds with no

problem.  That was the day I got to fly backwards!!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Paul Folbrecht

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 14

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Everybody ground loops?

 	  akflyerbob wrote: 	
		  I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for 

AKFLYER I whould have spudded my brand new KF l on

my first flight.

To say the least they are rudder unfriendly.

Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to

own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished.

If you can fly, you will love the K F.

Bob. 	




This is an old thread, but I have to ask you or someone to elaborate on the "rudder-unfriendly" comment above.



And a new question: do large (tundra) tires make a TD more docile (less likely to ground loop)?



(I did buy half of that Kitfox.  Then I sold it because we had a baby born over 3 months premature and I spent evenings at the hospital for 3 months+.  (He's 3 now, doing good, and loves airplanes along with his sister.)  And now I am considering an Avid or Kitfox again.  Still no TD endors. but I did end up getting about 50 hours in a Challenger II so I have light-plane experience.  I plan to get the TD endors. in a Cub soon and see how I like that first.)

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