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Extending the wing spar...

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nickc(at)mtaonline.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Greetings Kolber’s new and old,  

   

I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.   

   

Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think … have at it?  

   

Thank you all, for the great education!  

   

Nick Cassara  

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F  

   

PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list  

   

   

       [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

At 01:15 AM 1/3/2009, Nick Cassara wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22 so 

that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of 

experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ 

are the permanent wing tips.



Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on 

is&should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? 

The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12 long section of spar inserted 

inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard 

, what do you think & have at it?


	


What do you mean, "flying to the tip"?  And what is "the ______ _______"?



Why are you extending the wings?  Aren't short wings the whole point of the 

Kolbra?



Without looking closely at the design, I would put the splice near the 

tip.  Bending stresses are highest at the spar attach point and decrease as 

you go towards the tip and towards the root, but torsional stresses (from 

aileron forces) are highest at the root.



-Dana

--

  New safety announcement from the Department of Homeland 

Security:  Securely duct tape shut any books you may own about civil 

liberties or the U.S. Constitution.

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Nick,To me that would be a no brainer.  If there is ANY chance that your modification may not be permanent, the wing tip end would be much easier to modify.

Where do birds have their strongest bones, wing tips , or wing roots?

IOW     Don't mess with the wing root.

My humble opinion only.

Gene



On Jan 3, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings Kolber’s new and old,

 

I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.

 

Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think … have at it?

 

Thank you all, for the great education!

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F

 

PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list

 

 



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 [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Nick, that cold air is having a detrimental effect on your decision making.As others have replied, definitely don't mess with the inboard end.

That spar was meant to work as one big chunk.  It doesn't take kindly to cutting

and drilling.  Rivet holes should be kept to a minimum.  Most stress is in lift and

drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is in tension.

Take a piece of that spar material, put it in a vise and bend it a couple times with

visegrips.  You will be alarmed at how readily it fails.

Since the tips have a small load you may be better off inserting an I beam at the end.

You could make a decent one from thick sheet metal in the form of a truncated U.

-Or maybe a deep V with tabbed ends.

BB



On 3, Jan 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings Kolber’s new and old,

 

I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.

 

Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think … have at it?

 

Thank you all, for the great education!

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F

 

PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list

 

 



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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Nick, I learned to really fly in a glider and the guys that had the real state of the art sailplanes had wing tip  attachments some as long as 5 feet their extensions were always on the wingtip I think there is a lot more shearing stress on the inboard end of the wing . Just my 2 cents ! Good Luck . what is wrong with wing as it comes ? do you need more lift? Chris

   From: Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 1:15:09 AM

Subject: Extending the wing spar...

Greetings Kolber’s new and old, 

I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.  

Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think … have at it? 

Thank you all, for the great education! 

Nick Cassara 

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F 

PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list 

[quote]http://ww======================    [b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

I've seen the tips changed & the Leading Edge spliced, but

not the spar. At least not the inboard end.





At 01:15 AM 1/3/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings Kolber’s new and old,



I am planning to extend the wing spars on my 

proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will 

be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the 

spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine 

whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.



Since I have yet to build my wings, my question 

for you to chew on is…should the splice be on 

the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? 

The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long 

section of spar inserted inside the spare and 

riveted in place. I favor putting the splice 

inboard , what do you think … have at it?



Thank you all, for the great education!



Nick Cassara

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F



PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

At 09:58 AM 1/3/2009, robert bean wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Most stress is in lift and

drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is in tension.


	


Actually, on a strut braced high wing airplane, the inboard part of the 

wing spar is primarily in compression (unless, of course, you're flying 

inverted).  It has to be, to balance the tension in the lift struts.



On a fully cantilevered wing, of course, it's a different story.



-Dana

--

  Mr. Cole's Axiom:

The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is 

growing.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

NickI applaud your spirit of  trying to  make some improvements to your Kolbra -- but have  you had any kind of engineer/designer look at it? It's a major change and could change the flying characteristics a lot. Generally not a good idea to mess with a well-proven design.

ALSOI -- consider how she'd fly if one extension came off inflight, but not the other?

I don't think you'd be very happly.

Russ Kinne



On Jan 3, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Nick Cassara wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings Kolber’s new and old,

 

I am planning to extend the wing spars on my proto type Kolbra by 22” so that the wing will be flying to the tip. Flight testing, in the spirit of experimental aircraft, will determine whether or not the ______ _______ are the permanent wing tips.

 

Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the inboard end of the spar or the outward end? The splice will be a butt joint, with a 12” long section of spar inserted inside the spare and riveted in place. I favor putting the splice inboard , what do you think … have at it?

 

Thank you all, for the great education!

 

Nick Cassara

Palmer, Alaska   -25 degree F

 

PS Beaufort VG drawing is at the bottom of the archived photos list

 

 



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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

ya got me there pard, except for maybe in a steep dive at near zero  

Gs.  Things must change fast when the pullout occurs.

When I riveted the rib brackets to my left wing restoration I used  

fewer rivets than the other guy did.

I didn't feel there was going to be that much twist load.  So far, so  

good.

BB

On 3, Jan 2009, at 10:52 AM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 09:58 AM 1/3/2009, robert bean wrote:

> ...Most stress is in lift and

> drag which means particularly the quarter from front to bottom is  

> in tension.

 Actually, on a strut braced high wing airplane, the inboard part of  

 the wing spar is primarily in compression (unless, of course,  

 you're flying inverted).  It has to be, to balance the tension in  

 the lift struts.

 On a fully cantilevered wing, of course, it's a different story.

 -Dana

 --

  Mr. Cole's Axiom:

 The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the  

 population is growing.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

 	  Quote: 	
		  Greetings Kolber’s new and old,


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Since I have yet to build my wings, my question for you to chew on is…should the splice be on the>inboard end of the spar or the outward end?

Nick Cassara

Palmer, Alaska -25 degree F


	


Nick,



As you are aware, I HAVE extended my wing spars, to accomodate droop tips. I chose to extend the outer tip of the spar by using a chrome moly truss and various alum. tubes for triangulation bracing. This method has provided a very strong 22" extension. Scott (icrashrc) used a similar method to extend the end of his spar, to also add droop tips.

Although I think is "possible" to extend the spar at the root (as you descibed), I wouldn't consider it without destructive testing and some engineering calcs. If the splice were to fail at the root, the results would be predictable...bad!!



  Yes, as stated, the loads on the inner portion of the spar are in compression. Plus, the spar is also in a bending stress, which would create a shear on an inner extension. It is my opinion that if you add any length to the spar, it should be at the tip.



  With regard to failure of my spar extension truss design, I doubt it!! Once it was bolted on, and reinforced, it feels rock solid. To calculate the G forces at 6 G's on just the 22" wide extension is an easy affair. A quick calculation says each extension should be able to support

around 225 lbs, for a 6 G force.  225 lbs wouldn't even get it's attention!!

 

  I think the general concensus here is to add on to the tip.  It is reasonably easy, and can provide for a strong platform for droop tips.  IMHO!!

 

Best regards,

Mike Welch

MkIII 

 

 

 

    

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Nick

  

 I know enough aerodynamics to be dangerous but....  If you have the full airfoil to the wing tip (if that is what you are talking  about) you may get very little benefit if anything. It  seems like I have read that a wing with a airfoil right at the tip will loose  most all the lift near the tip by allowing that air to escape off the  tip. My understanding is that wingtips are designed two ways. One the most  common is to taper into a non lifting shape to minimize the generation of  span wise airflow (air escaping off the wing tip into to a tip vortex). The  second type attempts to stop span wise flow or recover energy from the  vortex. The latest New Kolb wing tips and winglets fall into the later or  some variation of both. 

  

  It is great to experiment but this isn't a  new idea. I'm sure there are test results available that would show wing  tip performance comparisons. The last thing you want to do is create a larger  draggy tip vortex that doesn't reduce stall speed.

  

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC  

 [quote]   ---

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

 	  Quote: 	
		   The last thing you want to do is create a larger draggy tip vortex that doesn't reduce stall speed.

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Rick Neilsen

>Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 
	


Rick N.,

 

  It is my understanding, from Nick's emails to me directly, that he intends on installing droop tips.

Although he didn't state that, I'm pretty sure that's his plan.

 

  With regard to your comment about lift escaping off spanwise from the end of the wing, I definitely agree

with you.  One of the biggest factors that I believe contributes to this is the high incidence angle of

the Kolb airplane's wings in flight.  While this attribute may give Kolb's airplanes their fantastic flying performance, it also proves that the lift produced by the wing goes through quite a high pressure gradient difference (in other words, the air really gets squished going under the wing).  The fact that the stall speed 

on the factory Xtra went from 30 MPH to 26 MPH, by installing droop tips proves this.

 

  In my opinion, all this seems intuitive!  If we were able to watch a wind tunnel test of a "high incidence

wing's wingtip lift loss", I think the results would be predictable, and obviously apparent, too.

 

  For SOME flyers, altering the original design to include thing's like droop tips or VGs, serves their flying

needs in some way.  Whether it their own limitations, their landing field, or whatever they deem necessary, they seek a slower landing wing.  That is NOT a bad thing. SOME pilots do NOT see any need whatsoever to alter the original design, and are quite satisfied with the performance and flying characteristics as they are, unaltered!  Great!!  To each his own.

 

Mike Welch 

MkIII

 

  

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Mike W:



 	  Quote: 	
		  One of the biggest factors that I believe contributes to this is the high 

incidence angle of

 the Kolb airplane's wings in flight.  While this attribute may give Kolb's 

 airplanes their fantastic flying performance, it also proves that the lift 

 produced by the wing goes through quite a high pressure gradient 

 difference (in other words, the air really gets squished going under the 

 wing).  The fact that the stall speed

 on the factory Xtra went from 30 MPH to 26 MPH, by installing droop tips 

 proves this.  > Mike Welch


	




The only thing the new Xtra wing has in common with Homer Kolb's wing is the 

shape of the airfoil.  The new wing is longer and was flown, initially, with 

no bow tip.  So...we can't compare it to the wing I am flying with, which 

has Homer's bowtip that has worked since he designed it.  Had we put Homer's 

wing tip on the "long" wing, we probably would have reduced the stall just 

as much.  I don't know for sure, but it would have slowed it down more than 

the squared off wing.



As far as high wing incidence in flight, that depends on airspeed.  High 

speed - it flattens out.  Slow down and the tail rides lower increasing wing 

incidence.



The reason Homer designed a lot of wing incidence into all his airplanes, 

except the Sling Shot, is the design of his landing gear and the way the 

aircraft sits nearly level on the ground.  Homer designed them this way 

because he wanted the added safety of requiring higher airspeed for lift off 

and landing for low time Kolb pilots.  Without the increased wing incidence, 

it would take a lot of runway to get going fast enough to fly off in a level 

attitude.



I have never changed Homer's wing design because what he came up with is 

hard to beat.  The wing tip is his design and serves to provide his aircraft 

with the great performance and gentle flight characteristics that they have 

always been famous for.  I fly off a 750 ft airstrip and have been for 25 

years.  I fly in some very short, unimproved, unfriendly strips that most 

pilots would not consider.  My fat mkIII breaks in ground effect as the ASI 

is coming through 30 mph.  How accurate is that ASI?  I don't know. 

Probably about as accurate as the ASI in the new Factory MKIIIx I tested 

last year.



 >  For SOME flyers, altering the original design to include thing's like 

droop tips or VGs, serves their flying

 	  Quote: 	
		   needs in some way.  Whether it their own limitations, their landing field, 

 or whatever they deem necessary, they seek a slower landing wing.  That is 

 NOT a bad thing. SOME pilots do NOT see any need whatsoever to alter the 

 original design, and are quite satisfied with the performance and flying 

 characteristics as they are, unaltered!  Great!!  To each his own.




	


Just a guess, but I think a lot of folks want to change the Kolb wing tip 

because it looks cooler.  Personally, I don't care if it looks like it does. 

What I like about it is it works, and has worked since Homer designed it.



Remember, any time one changes one part of a proven design, it usually 

affects other aspects of flight performance.  For example:  You may reduce 

the stall speed, but lose some of the gentle stall characteristics in the 

process.



VG's???  If you need them, fly with them.   Up until now, I have not been 

able to determine that the increase in performance and safety is worth the 

effort and expense of installing them on my mkIII.  Never said they do not 

work.  Just don't help enough to go to the effort...



My old airplane has been proven in flight for many hours and years.  I never 

hesitate to put up against other Kolbs, in the air, to compare "real world" 

performance.



BTW:  I don't have any aerodynamic engineering expertise.  I am just an old 

pilot that has experienced a lot of time in Kolbs in a lot of situations.  I 

have a great deal of respect for these airplanes, have made a lot of 

mistakes, and am still learning how to fly them almost every time I go up.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

 	  Quote: 	
		   VG's??? If you need them C fly with them. Up until now C I have not been

 able to determine that the increase in performance and safety is worth the

 effort and expense of installing them on my mkIII. Never said they do not

 work. Just don't help enough to go to the effort...

 john h

 mkIII


	


 

John H. C

 

  Everytime I have ever mentioned VGs C I have always made the very clear point that SOME people don't see their 

merit on THEIR plane.  I have also made the point that these same people aren't arguing whether or not they are useful C just that THEY don't see their need for them.

 

  As a general rule C I try and make a clear point of being tolerant of other's views and experiences (as opposed to others).  I realize there are hundreds of flyers C and everyone of them has his or her own talents C or lack thereof.  What works for one C does NOT always work for someone else.  Nor should it.  No one should be criticized for NOT following the choices of someone else.

 

  One of the wonderful advantages we enjoy here in the USA is the freedom to build our planes in the Experimental catagory.  It affords us the ability to build our planes as we see fit.  In my opinion C I think that is a good thing.  Otherwise C we might as all build our planes exactly identical to each other C and never deviate a rivet.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII Classic

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

  

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Mike W:



No argument, criticism intended.  Simply stating my experience and opinion 

on the subject of changing the design of a product that I am familiar with.



Does disagreeing with someone on the Kolb List make me a bad guy?



I will continue share my experience, good and bad, hoping others on the Kolb 

List will "read" and try to "understand" what I am saying, rather than take 

personal offense to it.



john h

mkIII



---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

 	  Quote: 	
		   I will continue share my experience, good and bad, hoping others on the Kolb

 List will "read" and try to "understand" what I am saying, rather than take

 personal offense to it.



 john h

 mkIII

 
	


 

John H.,

 

  Just to make things clear, I certainly wasn't offended by anything you said, nor was I arguing with you, I was agreeing with you.  I greatly agree that we should "read and understand" what a person writes, and not read any more into whatsomeone says than what they actually state.

 

  Without question you are probably the most experienced Kolb driver out there.  Of course, your experience/opinion

on all things Kolb should be taken seriously by those that build or fly Kolbs.  

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

 

  

  

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

Otherwise, we might as all build our planes exactly identical to each other, 

and never deviate a rivet.>>



Hi Mike,

you say that as if it was necessarily a `bad thing` It aint. The advantages 

being that you know, even if yours is the first model of a new type, that it 

won`t kill you.

You know  if you buy secondhand that the plane is as described in the 

manufacturers blurb, or at least it was at its last annual check.

You know that if a modification has been introduced it will not impair the 

performance or its engineering integrity.

You know that if the span has been increased it will not have been achieved 

by scarfing something unsuitable onto the wing root.

You know that your machine is legally what it is supposed to be.

You know that the plane will not be `fat` and invalidate your insurance if 

you have a crunch.

You know if you buy a manufacturers kit you will finish up with a machine 

not much different to one from the factory.

That is not to say that your Mark3 is the same as mine. Different builders 

have different ideas. It will rig differently, your instrument package will 

be different to mine. The weight and the C of G will vary, but within 

limits.

You will also know that if you are unfortunate  enough to have a crunch you 

have a proven engineering train to fall back on in court and you will never 

have to cut up a plane because you cannot take the chance of someone suing 

you in the event of a crunch.

I dont have the engineering expertise to build a safe plane, but I know a 

man who does.



Mind you if you can get the weight down below 115kg even in hide bound old 

England you can build what you like.



Cheers



Pat

dcreech3(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: Extending the wing spar...

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Extending the wing spar...

 Date: Mon C 5 Jan 2009 10:52:35 -0600

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 As far as high wing incidence in flight C that depends on airspeed. High 

 speed - it flattens out. Slow down and the tail rides lower increasing wing 

 incidence.

 This amounts to a quibble C but I think that "wing incidence" properly refers to the angle of the wing as attached to the airframe.  The thing that changes with airspeed is "angle of attack" C the angle of the wing relative to airflow. 

 If you assume that the tail boom represents the horizontal line of the fuselage C a Kolb sitting on the ground looks like it would have an unusually large angle of attack in level flight.  I think this is visually misleading C though.  I've never seen myself in the air C but I have the general impression that the plane trims itself for level cruise flight with the tail boom canted upward C making the bottom surface of the wing more horizontal. 

 I share your opinion about the inherent "goodness" of the basic Kolb design.  It's a real "sweet spot" considering the various tradeoffs involved C hard to improve on for its purpose.

 Regards C

 Lee

 Firestar II 

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