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Elevator Balance modification.
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info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

To group,  

   

We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options, lighten the ailerons, or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the “soft” spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1” of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so that’s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well, I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working on that but should have a solution in due time.   

   

Thanks for reading my book.  

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC  

        [quote][b]

dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Nick C

    Ah man C I liked being able to fly with one finger on top of the stick and still be able to manuever.  Seriously though I think this will be a good thing for the general aviation community C especially those with low time or more standard aircraft time.  Good job and good thinking.  Another example of how Arion continues to make improvements to the product in order to make the plane safer C easier C and more enjoyable to fly! Brian W.

 From: info(at)flylightning.net

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Date: Fri C 14 Nov 2008 16:19:12 -0600

  .ExternalClass p.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass li.EC_MsoNormal C .ExternalClass div.EC_MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited C .ExternalClass span.EC_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass span.EC_EmailStyle17 {font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.EC_Section1 {page:Section1;}    

To group C 

We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly C a need to make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options C lighten the ailerons C or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick C the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue C the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs C this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch C and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the “soft” spot in the center of pitch C anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1” of throw on the stick were its kinda dead C so that’s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well C I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change C it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances C well still working on that but should have a solution in due time.  

Thanks for reading my book. 

Nick Otterback 

Arion Aircraft C LLC

 	  Quote: 	

ww.matronics.com/contribution

st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

ronics.com

Stay up to date on your PC C the Web C and y19462413/direct/01/' target='_new'>Click here  [quote][b]

EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

In a message dated 11/14/2008 6:43:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

To group,   

    

We have just completed flight    testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the    SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to    make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing    the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below.    With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the    pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the    stick. There are two options, lighten the ailerons, or heavy up the pitch.    While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the    mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So    with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot    or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the    thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better    option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely.    The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount.    In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was    2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a    guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation    was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both    roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side    benefit is the elimination of the â€œsoftâ€ spot in the center of pitch, anyone    with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the    middle 1â€ of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so thatâ€™s gone. This is    not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the    modification as well, I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have    updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in    section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be    lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working    on that but should have a solution in due time.    

    

Thanks for reading my    book.   

    

Nick Otterback   

Arion Aircraft,    LLC

	


 

 Nick,

  

 I like the light control forces, and don't think they are a problem for low  time pilots. Certainly not for wrinkles like me who have lost medicals.

  

 So I have two other suggestions. 

  

 The obvious one (but a major mod) is to lengthen the main wing and  move the aileron out, then shorten the tip but include the winglet. This keeps  the same wing area, but provides a little more aileron control. A clean  solution, but a major re-tooling.

  

 The other suggestion is less obvious, but easier. Reduce the wing tip  length keeping the winglets. To keep the Light Sport stall speed, use the VG's  on the outboard wing to provide better stall characteristics (the inner wing  will stall first). My guess is that VGs in front of the ailerons would be all  you would need.

 The VG's they do reduce the stall speed and so do the winglets. The only  objection to the VGs in that configuration would be minor inconvenience when  washing the bird. The combination should work and keep the light roll  control force. I had to reduce stall speed by 2 knots from the clean  wing on mine for Light Sport, and the full wing VGs did exactly that. I've  since taken off the inner 4 on each side with no measurable change in stall  speed, but a slight improvement in stall warning. We could test  this suggested mod on my LS Lightning (hint, hint).

  

 BTW, To me the increased roll control force is more of a distraction  than the lack of harmonizing (matching) the pitch and roll forces. I don't  think I will like the increased pitch effort. As you know, I kept some bungees  on my pitch control with the new trim tab. With the right amount of bungee the  stick balances nicely on the ground, and reduces required up trim in  flight.

  

 Soft spot in the center of pitch? Not a problem in my Lightning. Maybe I'm  numb, but I haven't noticed this effect in 250 hours. If it's there it certainly  isn't objectionable.

  

 My 2c worth.

  

 Earl Ferguson



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wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Earl, My vote would be for lighter stick forces also. When flying more  precise movements and control are possible. Get in a J3 cub and you find out  what heavy is like. No thank you

 [quote]   ---

jhausch

Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 35

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Elevator Balance modification.

I have only a demo flight in the lightning, but if (when) I build my plan was to figure out a a way to increase the forces in pitch - long wing tips or not.  



I think I know what the mod looks like - I assume the counterbalance horn has gone from full length, to half-length, and now to no horn at all.

J Dupont

Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 26

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Elevator Balance modification.

 	  info(at)flylightning.net wrote: 	
		  To group,  

   

 An additional side benefit is the elimination of the â€œsoftâ€ spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1â€ of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so thatâ€™s gone.        [b] 	




This is a very big improvement to me .  To me it's 10 times more important than stick forces.  When I get my aircraft, it is one of the 5 most important criteria I will check.  



I have limited flying experience but I have been racing cars before and operating heavy machineries and cranes of all kinds and the response of the controls is crucial in any precision task.  



Can't wait to try it when I find time to finally go see the Lightning.



Janin Dupont

Canada

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

In a message dated 11/15/2008 7:55:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Get in a    J3 cub and you find out what heavy is like. 	


 

 What's the matter Tex, no muscles in your right arm?  Yes the Cub is  way heavier than the Lightning, but you haven't felt heavy until you try to fly  a Saratoga in a missing man formation fly by.  I had to borrow a Saratoga  last week for a "missing lady" formation fly by.  My airplane was at  another airport and weather had kept me from changing out airplanes, and there  was no way the Cub was going to keep up with a Cirrus and two other fast  homebuilts.  Anyway, the Saratoga was like a truck - a large dump  truck.  My Cub really felt light after that flight.  But hey, everyone  said the formation looked great - so  you make do with what you have to  work with.

 Buz



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  [quote][b]

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

I would like to make one more comment I did not earlier.  

Even with the balance removed it is still possible to rig back in the sensitivity if you wish. Since we have already got the rigging set to make it heavier with the mod in place it can be rigged out to get the pitch light if you have the short wing….so what ever you like.  

   

nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Whittingham

 Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 5:42 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification.  

  

   

Nick,

    Ah man, I liked being able to fly with one finger on top of the stick and still be able to manuever.  Seriously though I think this will be a good thing for the general aviation community, especially those with low time or more standard aircraft time.  Good job and good thinking.  Another example of how Arion continues to make improvements to the product in order to make the plane safer, easier, and more enjoyable to fly! Brian W.

 

       

  



 From: info(at)flylightning.net

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Elevator Balance modification.

 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:19:12 -0600

 

     

To group,  

   

We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options, lighten the ailerons, or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the “soft” spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1” of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so that’s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well, I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working on that but should have a solution in due time.   

   

Thanks for reading my book.  

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC  

   	  Quote: 	
		    ww.matronics.com/contributionst">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-Listronics.com 	
  

       

  

Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and y19462413/direct/01/' target='_new'>Click here    	  Quote: 	
		     	
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        [quote][b]

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Just to let everyone know because I think I have scared everyone…the pitch force being 4.75lbs per g is less than half of your normal Cessna. Cessnas are not light but they aren’t dump trucks either.  

nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex Mantell

 Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:55 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification.  

  

     

Earl, My vote would be for lighter stick forces also. When flying more precise movements and control are possible. Get in a J3 cub and you find out what heavy is like. No thank you  

  [quote]    

---

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

That is correct.



nick



--

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Good read earl some ideas too. I am sending a set of standard tips to peter Discher in Australia. Him and a friend are going to work out a set of winglet equipped standard tips…something to watch I think.  

   

Nick  

   

Do the wrinkles help for LSA and slow you down? You now aerodynamic breaking?  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EAFerguson(at)AOL.COM

 Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 9:57 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification.  

  

       

In a message dated 11/14/2008 6:43:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

To group,  

   

We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options, lighten the ailerons, or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the “soft” spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1” of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so that’s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well, I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working on that but should have a solution in due time.   

   

Thanks for reading my book.  

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC  

  	
  

    

Nick,  

    

   

    

I like the light control forces, and don't think they are a problem for low time pilots. Certainly not for wrinkles like me who have lost medicals.  

    

   

    

So I have two other suggestions.   

    

   

    

The obvious one (but a major mod) is to lengthen the main wing and move the aileron out, then shorten the tip but include the winglet. This keeps the same wing area, but provides a little more aileron control. A clean solution, but a major re-tooling.  

    

   

    

The other suggestion is less obvious, but easier. Reduce the wing tip length keeping the winglets. To keep the Light Sport stall speed, use the VG's on the outboard wing to provide better stall characteristics (the inner wing will stall first). My guess is that VGs in front of the ailerons would be all you would need.  

    

The VG's they do reduce the stall speed and so do the winglets. The only objection to the VGs in that configuration would be minor inconvenience when washing the bird. The combination should work and keep the light roll control force. I had to reduce stall speed by 2 knots from the clean wing on mine for Light Sport, and the full wing VGs did exactly that. I've since taken off the inner 4 on each side with no measurable change in stall speed, but a slight improvement in stall warning. We could test this suggested mod on my LS Lightning (hint, hint).  

    

   

    

BTW, To me the increased roll control force is more of a distraction than the lack of harmonizing (matching) the pitch and roll forces. I don't think I will like the increased pitch effort. As you know, I kept some bungees on my pitch control with the new trim tab. With the right amount of bungee the stick balances nicely on the ground, and reduces required up trim in flight.  

    

   

    

Soft spot in the center of pitch? Not a problem in my Lightning. Maybe I'm numb, but I haven't noticed this effect in 250 hours. If it's there it certainly isn't objectionable.  

    

   

    

My 2c worth.  

    

   

    

Earl Ferguson  

  



 

         

  

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    [quote]



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[b]

selwyn

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator Balance modification.

Hi Nick,



Nothing like timing, I just finished my elevator mods on Sunday!



A couple of questions though:

- Could we have more information on the rigging changes?

- What effect does the balance change have on trim effectiveness?  Given that the thing was already marginal on nose up trim in landing config what is it like with these changes?

 	  info(at)flylightning.net wrote: 	
		  I would like to make one more comment I did not earlier.  

Even with the balance removed it is still possible to rig back in the sensitivity if you wish. Since we have already got the rigging set to make it heavier with the mod in place it can be rigged out to get the pitch light if you have the short wingâ€¦.so what ever you like.  

   

nick

_________________
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Elevator Balance modification.

Nick 

I have just completed the modification to the elevator balance on N123WL.  I think the elevator feel is much better then before.  It is by no way heavy and much more balanced with the aileron's.  I like the modification, it helps the Lightning fly much easier in turbulence.

I will try to attach pictures.

Wayne

N123WL

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Thanks Wayne for the update on the elevator modification.  Do you think that

the elevator is less responsive in the middle range now, (maybe less

touchy)?



--

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Jim 

I have only flown with the change for 0.8 hrs, and like the changes.  It is less touchy at all speeds.  As far a the elevator being less responsive, I am not sure, but it has way more elevator then needed.  

Wayne 

N123WL



-- "Jim Langley" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

--> Lightning-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>



Thanks Wayne for the update on the elevator modification.  Do you think that

the elevator is less responsive in the middle range now, (maybe less

touchy)?



--

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

I think less touchy was what I meant.  Well, that is a good thing then…  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Lenox

 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 4:55 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Elevator Balance modification.  

Jim  

I have only flown with the change for 0.8 hrs, and like the changes.  It is less touchy at all speeds.  As far a the elevator being less responsive, I am not sure, but it has way more elevator then needed.   

Wayne  

N123WL

 -- "Jim Langley" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 --> Lightning-List message posted by: "Jim Langley" <pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

 Thanks Wayne for the update on the elevator modification.  Do you think that

 the elevator is less responsive in the middle range now, (maybe less

 touchy)?

 --

jhausch

Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 35

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Elevator Balance modification.

Thanks for posting those pics and providing your impressions of the change.



Are you going to do any testing for flutter near Vne?

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

I think I will leave that to Nick. 

Wayne



-- "jhausch" <jhausch(at)charter.net> wrote:

--> Lightning-List message posted by: "jhausch" <jhausch(at)charter.net>



Thanks for posting those pics and providing your impressions of the change.



Are you going to do any testing for flutter near Vne?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222934#222934

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info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

Wayne,



Great I was waiting to here on the mod....At least you have good weather to

fly!



Nick



--

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: Elevator Balance modification.

I have had the prototype to Vne several times with the balance mod done and

it is not a problem...with attempts to induce flutter none was found.....



nick



--

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