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582 Exhaust wrap

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Kitfoxers, I know I have seen the pros and cons of  wrapping the exhaust with fiber glass exhaust insulating tape to reduce engine  compartment temps. But, I wanted to hear from someone with personal experience  pro or con that wrapped an exhaust on a 582. I have wrapped the down  pipe and am considering blanketing the muffler also. I have used the fiber glass  tape wrap on a street rod with good result.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

   [quote][b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

One thing you should consider is that the exhaust system on a two stroke engine also serves as a conductor to radiate heat away from the engine block. Sometimes restricting the heat can lead to additional problems. 

 

I have seen a large number of 582 installations in Kitfox aircrafts (including my last plane) and the engine compartment heat generated by the exhaust was never a real problem  

 

Regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"Pat Reilly" <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

06/01/2009 10:39 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 582 Exhaust wrap 

     

 

 

 

Kitfoxers, I know I have seen the pros and cons of wrapping the exhaust with fiber glass exhaust insulating tape to reduce engine compartment temps. But, I wanted to hear from someone with personal experience pro or con that wrapped an exhaust on a 582. I have wrapped the down pipe and am considering blanketing the muffler also. I have used the fiber glass tape wrap on a street rod with good result. 

  

Pat Reilly 

Mod 3 582 Rebuild 

Rockford, IL 

[b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Gary C OK thanks for info. My heater hoses run within a couple inches of the down pipe and muffler. I hope there is enough space between them and the muffler.



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL





  To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: 582 Exhaust wrap

From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

Date: Tue C 6 Jan 2009 09:44:16 +0930

One thing you should consider is that the exhaust system on a two stroke engine also serves as a conductor to radiate heat away from the engine block. Sometimes restricting the heat can lead to additional problems. 



I have seen a large number of 582 installations in Kitfox aircrafts (including my last plane) and the engine compartment heat generated by the exhaust was never a real problem 



Regards 



Gary



Gary Algate

Classic 4 Jab 2200

Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review C dissemination C distribution C or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error C kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

“This year C instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail C we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 



    



"Pat Reilly" <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com>  Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

06/01/2009 10:39 AM 

Please respond to

kitfox-list(at)matronics.com 

      To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>    cc

    Subject

 582 Exhaust wrap

     



Kitfoxers C I know I have seen the pros and cons of wrapping the exhaust with fiber glass exhaust insulating tape to reduce engine compartment temps. But C I wanted to hear from someone with personal experience pro or con that wrapped an exhaust on a 582. I have wrapped the down pipe and am considering blanketing the muffler also. I have used the fiber glass tape wrap on a street rod with good result. 

  

Pat Reilly 

Mod 3 582 Rebuild 

Rockford C IL 



[b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution

[/b]

[quote]



 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ronics.com
	


ww.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: 582 Exhaust wrap

Hi Pat,



I have a Flight Design CTSW. I have a 912ULS. I have a wrapped exhaust and so do quite a few other CT owners and it is fleet approved. My exhaust have been wrapped for 250 hrs. I wrapped my exhaust from the exhaust port down to the top of the muffler. It covers the knuckle just above the muffler. This helps keep any blow-by exhaust from blowing where I don't want it if it leaks and it keeps the radiated heat off any wires or hoses. It cuts down on the internal cowling temps to all the parts and when I pull the cowling off after a flight I can put my hand on the exhaust and not get burned. Proper tension on the exhaust springs is a must and really helps here. Our exhaust system is stainless steel and carbonization from higher temps is not the same problem as it is with just plain steel exhaust pipes. One thing to remember is not to over do the wrap. You only over lap the edges by about 3/8"-1/2" with the 2" wide wrap.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Pat 

 

There would be no problem in wrapping that particular area of the pipe if you have a concern but I would keep it to the minimum. You can also consider a heat shield (piece of stainless steel) spaced about 1/2" away from the exhaust and as long as there is some air flow between the shield and the pipe you will be amazed at how this reduces heat radiation. 

 

Hope this helps  

 

Regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 jab2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

06/01/2009 11:12 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox matronics <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>   cc

    Subject

 RE: 582 Exhaust wrap 

     

 

 

 

Gary, OK thanks for info. My heater hoses run within a couple inches of the down pipe and muffler. I hope there is enough space between them and the muffler.

 

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 

 

 

 

  To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 582 Exhaust wrap

 From: gary.algate(at)sandvik.com

 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:44:16 +0930

 

 

 One thing you should consider is that the exhaust system on a two stroke engine also serves as a conductor to radiate heat away from the engine block. Sometimes restricting the heat can lead to additional problems. 

 

 I have seen a large number of 582 installations in Kitfox aircrafts (including my last plane) and the engine compartment heat generated by the exhaust was never a real problem 

 

 Regards 

 

 Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

 

 

    

 

 

 

 "Pat Reilly" <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 06/01/2009 10:39 AM 

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com      To

 <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>    cc

    Subject

 582 Exhaust wrap 

 

     

 



 

 

 Kitfoxers, I know I have seen the pros and cons of wrapping the exhaust with fiber glass exhaust insulating tape to reduce engine compartment temps. But, I wanted to hear from someone with personal experience pro or con that wrapped an exhaust on a 582. I have wrapped the down pipe and am considering blanketing the muffler also. I have used the fiber glass tape wrap on a street rod with good result. 

   

 Pat Reilly 

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild 

 Rockford, IL 

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution  

[b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Roger 

 

I agree with your post and wasn't suggesting wrap couldn't be used - it's just that wrapping the entire muffler and pipe will retain a lot of latent heat in the engine -  

Regards 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 Classic 4 Jab2200a

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

 

 

 

    

 

 

 

"Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

06/01/2009 11:19 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: 582 Exhaust wrap 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Hi Pat,

 

 I have a Flight Design CTSW. I have a 912ULS. I have a wrapped exhaust and so do quite a few other CT owners and it is fleet approved. My exhaust have been wrapped for 250 hrs. I wrapped my exhaust from the exhaust port down to the top of the muffler. It covers the knuckle just above the muffler. This helps keep any blow-by exhaust from blowing where I don't want it if it leaks and it keeps the radiated heat off any wires or hoses. It cuts down on the internal cowling temps to all the parts and when I pull the cowling off after a flight I can put my hand on the exhaust and not get burned. Proper tension on the exhaust springs is a must and really helps here. Our exhaust system is stainless steel and carbonization from higher temps is not the same problem as it is with just plain steel exhaust pipes. One thing to remember is not to over do the wrap. You only over lap the edges by about 3/8"-1/2" with the 2" wide wrap.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Service Center

 520-574-1080

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223056#223056

Michael Logan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 82

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

My wife wrapped the exhaust on her 912 Pulsar and a  crack developed underneath which we were not able to detect until too  late.  She is lucky to be alive.

  

 Mike Logan

 Series 5

 956ML



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat  Reilly

Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:59 PM

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: 582 Exhaust  wrap

 

 Kitfoxers, I know I have seen the pros and cons of  wrapping the exhaust with fiber glass exhaust insulating tape to reduce engine  compartment temps. But, I wanted to hear from someone with personal experience  pro or con that wrapped an exhaust on a 582. I have wrapped the down  pipe and am considering blanketing the muffler also. I have used the fiber glass  tape wrap on a street rod with good result.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

_________________
Mike Logan
Fredericksburg, VA

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

On Mon, January 5, 2009 4:34 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Gary, OK thanks for info. My heater hoses run within a couple inches of the down pipe

 and muffler. I hope there is enough space between them and the muffler.Pat ReillyMod 3


	


A reflector shield that has air blowing across it is very effective since radiative

heat transfer is proportional to the 4th power of delta T. The temperature of the

shield will be far lower than the exhaust and hence the heat transfer to the surface

of the heater hoses will be significantly reduced.



I'd have some worries about pin hole exhaust leaks forming into the fiberglass wrap

that would convey some oil residue present in two stroke exhaust and eventually

becoming a fire hazard.



So, my feeling is fabricate some aluminum shields that are attached to the exhaust

with SS clamps where protection is desired.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Paul C Not too sure what the 4th power of delta T is C but I got the idea. Thanks for the info. I think SS shields would be better idea than wrap.



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL





[quote] Date: Mon C 5 Jan 2009 18:36:50 -0800

 Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 Exhaust wrap

 From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 

 On Mon C January 5 C 2009 4:34 pm C patrick reilly wrote:

 >

 > Gary C OK thanks for info. My heater hoses run within a couple inches of the down pipe

 > and muffler. I hope there is enough space between them and the muffler.Pat ReillyMod 3

 

 A reflector shield that has air blowing across it is very effective since radiative

 heat transfer is proportional to the 4th power of delta T. The temperature of the

 shield will be far lower than the exhaust and hence the heat transfer to the surface

 of the heater hoses will be significantly reduced.

 

 I'd have some worries about pin hole exhaust leaks forming into the fiberglass wrap

 that would convey some oil residue present in two stroke exhaust and eventually

 becoming a fire hazard.

 

 So C my feeling is fabricate some aluminum shields that are attached to the exhaust

 with SS clamps where protection is desired.

 

 -- 

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Belle==

 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

On Mon, January 5, 2009 8:31 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Paul, Not too sure what the 4th power of delta T is, but I got the idea. Thanks for

 the info. I think SS shields would be better idea than wrap.


	


Delta T means temperature difference. Here it would mean the temperature difference

between the exhaust and the heater hoses. The 4th power would mean that temperature

difference raised to the 4th power. In other words if the absolute temperature

difference is double, then the amount of heat transferred is 16 times as much. It's

much worse than that though. Lets say the temperature of the exhaust pipe is 1100 °F

and the water hose surface is 250 °F without a shield and with a shield the outer

temperature of the shield  is 400 °F then the heat transfer reduction is the ratio of

the absolute temperature differences raised to the 4th power:



((1100 - 250 + 459) / (400 - 250 + 459)) ** 4 = 21.3 times as much heat transfer to

the hoses without the shield as with the shield. (The 459 converts °F to °R - Rankine,

absolute temperature)



Note this simplified model doesn't take into consideration geometry effects but they

would only make this difference even larger since radiation from a cylinder is

inversely proportional to the square of the radius. I picked numbers to for

illustration purposes, and probably with a shield the surface of the water hoses would

be even less than 250 °F.



I think I would use shields made of some soft and malleable aluminum alloy clamping

them with SS hose clamps, keeping the space between the shield and the exhaust pipe

sufficient to get good airflow. The aluminum would weigh less and if you use big radii

on the bends and cuts this will resist cracking better than using SS. I would use

3/32" sheet in 6 in sections bent to wrap at about 3/4" greater radius than the

exhaust pipe with three bent down 3/4" U-shaped tabs on each end to clamp the shield

to the pipe where the shield goes around at least 180° of the exhaust pipe.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: 582 Exhaust wrap

Wrap looks way cool on some motorcycles where it should stay.  Wrapping increases the temperature inside the exhaust system.  No way to get around that.  Increased heat inside the wrap equals decreased life inside the wrap.  Heat shields allow you to do periodic inspections of your exhaust without having to remove/replace the wrap and they do not increase the temperature of the exhaust itself.  

   

Noel  

   

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly

 Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:01 AM

 To: kitfox matronics

 Subject: RE: RE: 582 Exhaust wrap  

  

  

   

Paul, Not too sure what the 4th power of delta T is, but I got the idea. Thanks for the info. I think SS shields would be better idea than wrap.

 

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 

 

 

 

 > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:36:50 -0800

 > Subject: RE: 582 Exhaust wrap

 > From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 > 

 > On Mon, January 5, 2009 4:34 pm, patrick reilly wrote:

 > >

 > > Gary, OK thanks for info. My heater hoses run within a couple inches of the down pipe

 > > and muffler. I hope there is enough space between them and the muffler.Pat ReillyMod 3

 > 

 > A reflector shield that has air blowing across it is very effective since radiative

 > heat transfer is proportional to the 4th power of delta T. The temperature of the

 > shield will be far lower than the exhaust and hence the heat transfer to the surface

 > of the heater hoses will be significantly reduced.

 > 

 > I'd have some worries about pin hole exhaust leaks forming into the fiberglass wrap

 > that would convey some oil residue present in two stroke exhaust and eventually

 > becoming a fire hazard.

 > 

 > So, my feeling is fabricate some aluminum shields that are attached to the exhaust

 > with SS clamps where protection is desired.

 > 

 > -- 

 > Paul A. Franz

 > Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 > Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 > Belle==

 > 

 > 

 >    	  Quote: 	
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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