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Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

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drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

This is a good post.

I take all of the local CFI's and give them spin opportunity.  And any  

other pilots that are interested.

I will respond to your questions below.

On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:15 AM, GreasySideUp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 I have been thinking of writing an article to the RPA magazine about  

 spin training and was wondering the percentage of owners/operators  

 of Yaks and Cj's that have had a formal/ informal spin/upset  

 attitude course, how many have never done a spin and who spins their  

 bird regularly.  I am also interested if you know of other owners  

 that have never done spins or are a little scared of them - Please  

 no names.   I had found much misinformation regarding the spin  

 characteristics of my 50 when I was a new owner, mainly on the  

 negative/caution/scary side that I have simply found untrue. This  

 led me to an overcautious approach to finding the envelope on my  

 plane and leads me to believe there are many others who could use a  

 good spin training course.  All planes spin a little differently but  

 I have found the 50 to be extremely predictable in both upright,  

 inverted and accelerated spins and able to recover within a few  

 degrees of where I want to.  With hundreds of spins, it has done ex!

 actly what I wanted it to every single time which was contrary to  

 much that I had heard as a new owner.  The conclusion I've come to  

 is that there is a handed down fear from people not necessarily  

 qualified to teach spins that has negative repercussions to both old  

 and new owners who could really use the training.



 I'll add that many CFI's who are legally "qualified" to teach spins  

 have no idea what is happening in a spin aerodynamically and are a  

 little scared of them themselves.  There is no formal couse for  

 teaching CFI's spins. This is unfortunate as bad habits and  

 misinformation are passed along and perpetuated from one CFI to the  

 next and if there is any trepidation at all in that instructor it  

 will be passed immediately to the student.



 Please give me your thoughts, as I absolutely do not condone  

 teaching yourself from books, I am under the impression that a spin/ 

 upset attitude course by qualified instructors may be a welcome  

 benefit as a sidebar to some of our formation clinics.



 If you are doing any aerobatics or "Extended trail" inverted  

 maneuvers including simple loops and rolls and are not completely  

 confident and comfortable doing spins I would encourage you to stop  

 immediately and find a qualified spin instructor for a few lessons.   

 With a 1000 hours teaching aerobatics I have seen more than 1 loop  

 wind up in an unintentional inverted spin.  No big deal at all if  

 you have seen it before.  The lessons will be extremely enjoyable  

 and you will have a new mastery and confidence in your flying  

 abilities and your aircraft, once you learn to spin a stall is a no  

 brainer.



 The questions are this



 1.Have you done a formal Spin/upset attitude course in an aerobatic  

 aircraft (Including Yaks/Cj's)?

Yes - started with Sergei 4-5 years ago.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 2. Have you done a Spin in your plane?

Yes
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 3. Have you done an inverted spin in your plane?

Yes
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 4. Have you practiced a Falling leaf stall in your plane?

No
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 5. Have you practiced overshooting stalls resulting in a snap roll  

 and recovery from inverted flight and or wake turbulence recovery at  

 simulated low altitudes?

Yes
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 6. Are you timid to do a spin because of something you have heard?

 7. Are you timid to do a spin because of something that has happened  

 in your plane?

 8. Have you done basic upset attitude recovery in your  

 plane( simulating inverted wake turbulence recovery at low altitudes)

Not intentionally   But practicing acro in the 55 it does happen.  I  
	


always set a floor of 1500 ft agl up to 5-6000 for practice and when  

working inadvetent snaps and accelerated stall / spin happens

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 9. Do you know an owner who is afraid of stalls, spins or inverted  

 flight in their plane?

Yes I have a good friend who will not intentionally spin his plane.   
	


Yet he does mild acro - loops, rolls etc.  Even some verticle stuff.   

I think this is a recipe for disaster as the inadvertent stall spin  

from an unusual attitude can be very disorienting for someone who does  

not practice them.  He thinks I am crazy for the acro I do.  I think  

he is crazy for doing the milder stuff without being trained or  

experienced in stall spin.  He has seen me from the ground do upright  

and inverted yet will not learn them.



Herb

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Thoughts?



 -Josh





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 22965#222965

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Just a thought, but in the Military... All branches....Basic Aerobatic

Training ... To include spin training... Is provided to the individual

BEFORE formation training.  



That said:  The RPA has a number of safety requirements that an

applicant must meet or perform before receiving FAST Certification. 



Might it not be worth considering that any applicant for FAST

Certification also show proof of some kind of Spin Training as a

minimum?  Or ... Make Spin Training part of the FAST Curriculum?  



I KNOW that the points Josh has brought up, and the questions he asks at

the end of his posting, are dead nuts accurate and acting on his advice

will save lives.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK 



P.S.  Josh, I heard all the same stories about the 50 as you did.  My 50

has also proven to be very predictable and extremely stable at low

speed.  The only "story"  I have yet to experiment with is the Inverted

Snap while on a 45 down line "issue".  This came from a good source

though... So ????    



--

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

I sought out and attended upset and spin training prior to flying my -50 for the first time. Money well spent and was also applicable to my civilian job flying the G200.

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

This is something about which I have posted several times before,but if it 

saves lives it must be worth repeating.

I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.

It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.

The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when 

spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.

As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful controls will 

allways respond to normal spin recovery action.

On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from a spin up 

to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover from a 

well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.

In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to themselves,and 

indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from an 

experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different experience 

is not enough!!

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.



---

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Josh:



To address spins for the entire community, you need to address spins in the CJ - which really doesn't like to spin.  However, when spinning the CJ, you can enter a steep spiral quite easily which has its own set of problems if not recognized early.  I have also read that someone managed to get a CJ into a flat spin with much altitude needed for recovery.  Gabby is probably the best person to discuss spin characteristics of the CJ.



I am surprised to hear that the 50 has been given a bad rap in the past.  As a competition aerobatic plane, I would suspect it would be quite predictable.



I do my CFI stuff in CAP flying 182s and 172s and as such don't get the opportunity to teach or do much in the way of spinning.  Most of the effort is to teach recognition of stalls or situations you can stall/spin.  I've recently begun to add in a discussion on the shortcomings of having the stall warning device on only the left wing.



I think the community would be well served by a separate article in Red Alert on the spin characteristics of each of our primary aircraft:  50, 52, 55, CJ.



Craig

GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Guys, this is great stuff!!  Thank you for all the emails.  I am going to gather data for a little while longer and try and post results but already there is a common trend emerging.  Those that have had spin and upset attitude training in any aircraft are very comfortable in their own planes but most all of you know someone who is flying aerobatics that has a fear of spins.  Regardless of the characteristics between the Yaks and CJ airframes, a 1 turn vs. 3 turn vs. inverted flat, it looks as though some more education and training may be in order.



I got into a spin as a very young student pilot many years ago - during a stall a wing dropped, I put in full opposite aileron and off we went.  It was followed by screaming from my instructor on how I nearly killed us with no explanation on why it happened.  I carried that fear of stalls for the next 300 hours, tensing up on every check ride and never practicing on my solos for fear of killing myself.  Finally I took an upset attitude course that changed everything.  After a few falling leafs and spins that fear was instantly over.  A stall was suddenly no big deal.   What I learned is that my instructor had very limited knowledge of stalls and post departure flight and that fear was undoubtedly passed on not only me but all of his students.



I fell in love with aerobatics, got involved with competition and eventually teaching and over the years I found 2 things repeated by almost all my students.  Even after an hour briefing, the vast majority, when a wing drops during a stall, will throw opposite aileron. When put in an inverted position (ie wake turbulence) they will try to pull out no matter what the altitude.  Everything we learn in flying tells us to do these two things and without instruction can not be be un-learned by reading alone.  It doesn't take a mastery of fully developed advanced spins (ie accelerated flat) to be safe doing aerobatics - but rather to have a full understanding of how to get into and out of a regular spin and more importantly recognize the pre-spin departure circumstances and recover before the spin develops.  A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss.  I have seen more than one hammerhead enter an inverted spin, but if you recognize the plane is about to go it is easily avoidable and the gravity will do all the work for you.  An inadvertent inverted spin by doing acro with no training however can be a recipe for disaster.



I can say this for sure, if you have trepidation at all regarding any type of stall it will be cured with a good spin training course.  If you are not comfortable with spins, aerobatics and ACM should not be performed under any circumstances.  



Keep the discussion going!!



Josh

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Josh:



 	  Quote: 	
		  A developed cross controlled spin simulating an overshooting final is eye watering but if you have seen it before can easily be recognized and recovered without any altitude loss. 	




I'll challenge you on this.  A fully developed spin has gone past the incipient stage and you have already lost altitude.  



The cross-controlled stall is exciting as the wing opposite the direction of turn (the higher wing) drops and rolls the plane quite abruptly.  I've only done a few, but they do get your attention.



Also,  tossing in opposite aileron in an incipient spin produces adverse yaw which just makes the situation worse.



Rich Stowell in his excellent book on stalls and spins gives the PARE technique a blessing:



P - power to idle

A - Ailerons NEUTRAL

R - Full opposite rudder to stop rotation

E - Elevator forward to break the stall (reduce the AOA)



This is of course for upright stalls.



If you've ever watched a video of a test pilot in a flat spin talking thru control inputs that have no effect and then putting his hand up in the air while the plane continues to spin (attempt at the old "just let go technique") it is sobering.  The pilot I watched got out only thru deployment of a spin chute.  This was in a Gruman Tiger I think.  Certainly not a plane certificated for doing this and after watching the video, there is a good reason why!!



Craig

GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Absolutely correct Craig, I misspoke.  A developed spin will most definitely incur an altitude loss, I meant to say if you recognize it at its incipient phase you can recover before the spin develops.  The difficulty with these spins is that there is very little warning and if you have not seen it before it will be difficult to recognize.  There is often never enough altitude to recover from a spin in the pattern so it is paramount to know what the signs are to break that chain of events.  The nose low, high side, cross controlled spins in particular are sobering to most with just how quickly they snap around.  With an immediate recovery after departure it still leaves you in an extremely nose low attitude and at base altitudes are generally not recoverable.  If however you have seen it before, as with all types of spins, it is easy to recognize and the real recovery happens before the aircraft ever departs. 



I've found a rough Wag in most "aerobatic" aircraft is about 300-500 feet per rotation and another 500 to recover.  Variations occur with more advanced spins, less advanced aircraft (ie the AT-6) or super expensive aircraft (a-la the F-16) but that is a story over a cold beer sometime....

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Josh:



I misspoke too (typing fast at work!)...the PARE technique is for recovery from a developed upright SPIN not an upright STALL.



Here is the F-22 in a stall.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR1HNDwxwpw



Craig

torque_roll(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the '52 C but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the '55 series C what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may be similar to the '50? Curious to know.

 

Andrew Love

  

Contract Pilot  

NZCPL (A)

Queenstown 

New Zealand

 



 

P     +64 3 451 0396     I     F    +64 3 342 5189       I       M +64 21 818 816



[quote] From: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

 Date: Tue C 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>

 

 This is something about which I have posted several times before Cbut if it 

 saves lives it must be worth repeating.

 I have no experience with the CJ family Cso write only about Yaks.

 It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.

 The 50 is much lighter Cand with a much lower moment of inertia when 

 spinning Cyet with the same size control surfaces.

 As such the 50 is predictable in the spin Cand with powerful controls will 

 allways respond to normal spin recovery action.

 On the other hand Cwhile the 52 will usually recover quickly from a spin up 

 to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover from a 

 well-developed spin Cparticularly if it has gone flat.

 In my view CANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52 C owes it to themselves Cand 

 indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from an 

 experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different experience 

 is not enough!!

 Richard

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom

 

 Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com

 I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working Cand my local phone is 

 +94 779 132 160.

 

 

 

 ---

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

The 50 and 55 have very different spin characteristics,but  both are straightforward and predictable.

 The 52 is not ALLWAYS predictable in a well-developed  spin,BUT will allways recover with the correct actions,but recovery can be  prolonged!

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5  3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129  

www.russianaeros.com

I’m  currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779  132 160.

  

  



 [quote]   ---

scott-p(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Hi Andrew,



I can't comment on the -52, but I have several hundred hours of 

aerobatic competition and practice in the 55M.



The spin characteristics of the 55M are quite benign for a dedicated 

acro plane. The break is fairly sharp with no tendency to mush at about 

100-105 kph. In an upright spin the nose drops with the wing and by 90 

degrees of turn is down at about 30 degrees below the horizon which is 

where it stays unless some action is taken. Recovery after up to 4 turns 

is simple, stick to neutral, opposite rudder to direction of spin, and 

it takes slightly less than 1/4 turn to stop. Increasing power to about 

60-70% during the recovery tends to speed up the recovery. Inverted the 

situation is nearly identical, although recovery takes longer with power 

off, more like 1/3 turn. With practice, the airplane can be successfully 

spun with power anywhere from idle to about 90%. Flat spins can be 

produced by adding power after the initial 1/2 turn to any spin, and the 

effect is to bring the nose up to the horizon and increase the turn 

rate. Particularly in the inverted setting, when flat, if power is not 

reduced, the stick forces require both hands be used and the stick 

should be pinned back or forward until rotation stops and the nose 

pitches down. In "normal" (i.e,. not flat, non-accelerated) spins, the 

airplane does recover with the Beggs-Mueller "hands-off" technique, but 

it will not do so from a flat or accelerated spin, and requires positive 

recovery in those cases.



It has little or no tendency to tumble, and has no odd spin modes (by 

contrast, the Su-29 has some very odd spin modes that can be entered 

with large oscillations of pitch, and a tendency to enter a tumble if 

the recovery is mis-managed). I actual practice the Russians teach a 

technique which allows the pilot to control the spin throughout the 

incipient and early developed stages. It requires leaving power on and a 

judicious combination of stick and pedal inputs, but once mastered 

allows one to create a perfectly reproducible spin under any conditions. 

DO NOT try to learn this yourself, rather get a Russian coach to teach 

you. It isn't hard, but is somewhat disconcerting when tried the first 

about 100 times.



Hope this helps.



Scott Poehlmann

Yak 55M

N155YK



Andrew Love wrote:

[quote] The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in the 

 '52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience in the 

 '55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from basic upright 

 through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a '52 I guess it may 

 be similar to the '50? Curious to know.

 /Andrew Love/

  



 /Contract Pilot /



 /NZCPL (A)/

 *Queenstown*



 *New Zealand*

 *//* 

 */P     +64 3 451 0396     I     F    +64 3 342 5189       I       M 

 +64 21 818 816/*



 > From: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com

 > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - 

 Informal poll

 > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530

 >

 > 

 <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>

 >

 > This is something about which I have posted several times before,but 

 if it

 > saves lives it must be worth repeating.

 > I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.

 > It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.

 > The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when

 > spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.

 > As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful controls 

 will

 > allways respond to normal spin recovery action.

 > On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from a 

 spin up

 > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover from a

 > well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.

 > In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to 

 themselves,and

 > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction from an

 > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different 

 experience

 > is not enough!!

 > Richard

 > Richard Goode Aerobatics

 > Rhodds Farm

 > Lyonshall

 > Hereford

 > HR5 3LW

 > United Kingdom

 >

 > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120

 > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

 > www.russianaeros.com

 > I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local 

 phone is

 > +94 779 132 160.

 >

 >

 >

 > ---

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

Could Scott and Richard address the developed spin and fuel load  

topic?  I know what I have been told and read, but I would be  

interested to hear their opinions and I would like them to post so in  

the archives people can search and find this information.  In the 55M  

and the 52TW there are fuel limitations that I understand to limit the  

ability to recover from the developed spin.  I believe there have been  

some pilots in the standard 52 go to the ground because of the same  

thing, I anm not as familiar with the standard 52 though.  Yet the  

Sukhoi does not have this limitation as the fuel is in the fuselage -  

centrally located in the spin.



Thanks,

Herb

On Jan 8, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Scott Poehlmann wrote:



[quote] 



 Hi Andrew,



 I can't comment on the -52, but I have several hundred hours of  

 aerobatic competition and practice in the 55M.



 The spin characteristics of the 55M are quite benign for a dedicated  

 acro plane. The break is fairly sharp with no tendency to mush at  

 about 100-105 kph. In an upright spin the nose drops with the wing  

 and by 90 degrees of turn is down at about 30 degrees below the  

 horizon which is where it stays unless some action is taken.  

 Recovery after up to 4 turns is simple, stick to neutral, opposite  

 rudder to direction of spin, and it takes slightly less than 1/4  

 turn to stop. Increasing power to about 60-70% during the recovery  

 tends to speed up the recovery. Inverted the situation is nearly  

 identical, although recovery takes longer with power off, more like  

 1/3 turn. With practice, the airplane can be successfully spun with  

 power anywhere from idle to about 90%. Flat spins can be produced by  

 adding power after the initial 1/2 turn to any spin, and the effect  

 is to bring the nose up to the horizon and increase the turn rate.  

 Particularly in the inverted setting, when flat, if power is not  

 reduced, the stick forces require both hands be used and the stick  

 should be pinned back or forward until rotation stops and the nose  

 pitches down. In "normal" (i.e,. not flat, non-accelerated) spins,  

 the airplane does recover with the Beggs-Mueller "hands-off"  

 technique, but it will not do so from a flat or accelerated spin,  

 and requires positive recovery in those cases.



 It has little or no tendency to tumble, and has no odd spin modes  

 (by contrast, the Su-29 has some very odd spin modes that can be  

 entered with large oscillations of pitch, and a tendency to enter a  

 tumble if the recovery is mis-managed). I actual practice the  

 Russians teach a technique which allows the pilot to control the  

 spin throughout the incipient and early developed stages. It  

 requires leaving power on and a judicious combination of stick and  

 pedal inputs, but once mastered allows one to create a perfectly  

 reproducible spin under any conditions. DO NOT try to learn this  

 yourself, rather get a Russian coach to teach you. It isn't hard,  

 but is somewhat disconcerting when tried the first about 100 times.



 Hope this helps.



 Scott Poehlmann

 Yak 55M

 N155YK



 Andrew Love wrote:

> The only significant time I have on any of the yak/CJ family is in  

> the '52, but I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience  

> in the '55 series, what are the spin characteristics like from  

> basic upright through to flat and inverted? Being lighter than a  

> '52 I guess it may be similar to the '50? Curious to know.

> /Andrew Love/

>

> /Contract Pilot /

>

> /NZCPL (A)/

> *Queenstown*

>

> *New Zealand*

> *//* */P     +64 3 451 0396     I     F    +64 3 342 5189        

> I       M +64 21 818 816/*

>

> > From: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com

> > To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> > Subject: Re: Spin Training / Upset attitude course -  

> Informal poll

> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:49:30 +0530

> >

> > 

> >

> >

> > This is something about which I have posted several times  

> before,but if it

> > saves lives it must be worth repeating.

> > I have no experience with the CJ family,so write only about Yaks.

> > It is a mistake to parcel the 50 and the 52 together.

> > The 50 is much lighter,and with a much lower moment of inertia when

> > spinning,yet with the same size control surfaces.

> > As such the 50 is predictable in the spin,and with powerful  

> controls will

> > allways respond to normal spin recovery action.

> > On the other hand,while the 52 will usually recover quickly from  

> a spin up

> > to one and a half turns it CAN be much more difficult to recover  

> from a

> > well-developed spin,particularly if it has gone flat.

> > In my view,ANYONE WHO DOES AEROBATICS IN A 52, owes it to  

> themselves,and

> > indeed the Yak comunity as a whole to obtain PROPER instruction  

> from an

> > experienced 52 instructor.A good aerobatic pilot with different  

> experience

> > is not enough!!

> > Richard

> > Richard Goode Aerobatics

> > Rhodds Farm

> > Lyonshall

> > Hereford

> > HR5 3LW

> > United Kingdom

> >

> > Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120

> > Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

> > www.russianaeros.com

> > I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local  

> phone is

> > +94 779 132 160.

> >

> >

> >

> > ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

The 50 has an asymmetrical low-wing, basically a Clark style airfoil.

The 55 has a symmetrical mid-wing.  The aerobatic performance of the 55

has been noted to be somewhat of a "Poor Man's Sukhoi".  These are two

totally different aircraft, with the 55 being more likened to the Sukhoi

26 than say the YAK-50.  I think Richard Goode has flown all three.  I

have flown a 50 and a 55, and the 50 has much better low speed

performance.  I did not spin the 55, so this is not really an answer to

your question, but just a simple observation. 



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK

--

Etienne Verhellen

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Spin Training, Upset attitude recovery ... etc ...

Spinning in the Yak 52 ... is good FUN !!  )

But get proper type specific training in YOUR Yak 52.



A few observations ... (repeat)



1. It doesn't hurt to use 2 hands on the stick to recover from a "good" flat

spin. The Russians do it. 



2. A great way to enter a good flat spin is a modified stall turn (hammerhead). 

I mean, this is the easiest way to consistently enter into an intentional flat spin during training. 

So I guess if you are going to fly stall turns it is probably a good idea to ask an instructor to show you what a flat spin entry and recovery looks like ... 



3. Once the spin has been flattened (out-spin aileron) it can be further  accelerated by unloading the elevator a small amount. 



Are we having FUN yet ?



http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1029467/

http://www.forseilles.net/gallery/sanicole/B2V0752

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/photos/displayimage.php?pos=-764



4. Recovery from this intentional flat spin would work something like that :

opposite rudder, stick back (if you have unloaded), stick to the other

side and then forward. Recovery will be more consistent than going

straight to the "final" position.



5. Recovery will be faster (and easier) WITH power ON ... if you know

what you are doing. 

To recover from intentional (flat) spinning the correct control will always work. In the Yak-52, they will work better with power on. 



The wrong inputs will not recover from a spin.



The wrong inputs with power on will make the lack of recovery even

more certain.



6. As for the Inverted accelerated and Inverted flat spins, I find them

quite hard to maintain because of the centrifugal force under negative

g's. And remember out-spin aileron in an inverted spin means moving

the aileron control to the same side to that which the rudder is applied.



7 . What about the cross-over spin : entering an inverted spin from a stall

in level upright flight ?



8. Competition spins ? 

One turn - 1 turn and 1/4 - 1 turn and 1/2 ... 

(Exits must be vertical).



9. Or going straight from a one turn and a half upright spin into an

inverted spin, a potentially disconcerting and dangerous situation ...



The so-called "change-over" spin ... WAOW ... now that's FUN !!



Etc ... etc ...



So to state the obvious one more time :



Emergency and planned (spin) RECOVERY techniques must be taught - in a TYPE specific manner - with an Instructor experienced on TYPE.

Cheers,



Etienne.   



Yak 52  "janie"  (G-CBSS).



Having FUN with Yak 52 ...



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http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod(at)scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Break.jpg

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod(at)scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Line_Astern_-_Cerfontaine_2008.jpg

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod(at)scarlet.be.11.12.2008/REJ_428_2823.jpg

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod(at)scarlet.be.11.12.2008/Yak_52__G-CBSS_FLAT_SPIN.jpg

http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/tis1_verod(at)scarlet.be.11.12.2008/yak52.jpg

 

...... HAPPY 2009 ..................................

_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Ð¯ÐºÐ¾Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ² Ð¯Ðº-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
https://www.yakovlevs.com/the-team/pilots-and-crew/

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

'52 flat spin training starts at 10,000 feet, with both wearing parachutes.

Gives a lot of time to se the effects of power and controls on the way down.

Brief is that IF it doesn't recover by 4000', GIB gets out to bring C0fG

forward.

Then GIF has until 2500 with full (and held there) anti- flat spin controls

before he gets out too if not recovered.



That's the brief I use, but have never had to use it. All the '52s I've flow

ALWAYS come out IF the FULL anti-FLAT spin controls are held there (Full

opposite rudder, Full forward stick, Full in spin aileron). Sometimes takes

5 turns to have an effect - which is too long for some people who relax the

controls before then - a big no-no.



Nigel.



--

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:13 am Post subject: Spin Training / Upset attitude course - Informal poll

In reply to Herb Coussons,my personal view is that fuel load is not a 

significant factor in 52 spinning,mainly because the standard tanks are 

fairly small.

BUT anything,like wing fuel that increases rotational inertia will prolong 

spin recovery.

The Sukhois were all tested with full wing tanks[in 26MX;29 and 31]where the 

quantity is significant-55 US gallons and recovery is slower but totally 

predictable and safe.

I do not believe that any of the 52 spinning accidents have been caused by 

full tanks,but it might have been a factor.

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.



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