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What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

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rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp on buss and other high amperage connections?http://www.cool-amp.com/It is a wipe on with damp cloth application.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Ron,  

   

Were you planning on installing a 230 kv transformer in your craft? This stuff is  for those big connectors that weld themselves shut when shorted. A dab of dielectric grease will do the same if needed for small applications like ours.  

     

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US

 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:06 PM

 To: AeroelectricList

 Subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?  

  

   

Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp on buss and other high amperage connections?

 

 http://www.cool-amp.com/

 

 It is a wipe on with damp cloth application.

 

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rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Hi longg



"Were you planning on installing a 230 kv transformer in your craft? This

 	  Quote: 	
		   stuff is  for those big connectors that weld themselves shut when

 shorted. A dab of dielectric grease will do the same if needed for small

 applications like ours."


	


No the 230kv transformer will be used on my next flying project which will

need to transform the tremendous amount of power coming out of next

generation breadbox sized fuel cells!



You refered to the wrong product I had in mind. I wanted to know about

using the silver plating powder called:

Cool-Amp Silver Plating Powder

Part #1233-500



that can be used in situation for increasing conductivity and help keep

copper from corroding. Specific it is intended for:

Cool-Amp Can Be Used On:

Bus Bars - Cable Terminals - Current Transformers - Terminals - Clamps &

Fittings



Other Uses Include:

Ham Radios - PCBs - Welders - Musical Instruments



When used on PCBs I think it not only helps copper from corroding, but

will help with high frequency transmissions.



See:

http://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp.html



Specific I was interested in using it for a connections in picture #28 and

#31:

http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php



My friend has some Amp cool that he will lend me.



Anyone have any comments on soldering to a silver plated piece of copper?

If I were to do so, would it be worht it to use this solder from mcMaster

that has a lower than 63-37 melting point (354F):

Tin/Lead/Silver/Antimony with Rosin Flux— Composed of 62% tin, 35.75%

lead, 2% silver, and 0.25% antimony. For use on silver-plated surfaces and

heat-sensitive components and near previously soldered joints.



You were talking about :

Conducto-Lube



Ron Parigoris

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

At 05:05 PM 1/5/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Anyone have any thoughts on using Cool Amp on buss and other high amperage connections?



 http://www.cool-amp.com/



 It is a wipe on with damp cloth application. 	


   There's a host of elixers and potions intended to improve

   the quality of electrical connections . . . particularly

   those that are not permanently gas-tight (soldered/crimped).

   A few examples . . .



  http://www.stabilant.com.au/body_what_is_stabilant_22_.html



   http://urgentcomm.com/mag/radio_electrical_contact_enhancer/



   http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/19153



   http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/xtremequicksilver.htm



  http://www.deoxit.com/



    Each of these products claims some capabilities to

    remove impediments to good connection (corrosion/

    contaminants), fill the voids between mating surfaces

    with some conductor usually in liquid suspension of

    some kind (silver flakes?), finally some feature that

    protects a made up joint from environmental attack.



    We had a processes guru look at several products while

    I was a Beech years ago.  Most of the products evaluated

    went to failures of manufacturing process. Consistency

    of manufacturing process is one of the reasons that

    crimped joints won out over soldered joints.  I forget

    how many different products were looked at but in the

    final analysis, the legacy processes that had evolved

    over decades of military and type certified experience

    was shown not to benefit from any of magic juices.



    I guess there was one exception . . . the Stabilant 22

    was evaluated by our brothers at Raytheon Mass and

    found useful for the rapidly disappearing gold fingers

    on card edges which were never very popular with the

    aircraft guys.



    Short answer is if the pieces are clean and then joined

    up gas-tight, there's no need for further treatment. 



 

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------



     [quote][b]

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Hi BobThx. for the reply."> Short answer is if the pieces are clean and then joined > up gas-tight, there's no need for further treatment."Keeping my parts clean and creating an absolute gas tight seal using 6-32 screws to hold components together I think can be a challenge.The product I spoke of is simple pure silver plating. Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals?Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on the areas  of my .032" thick and .75" wide thin wire where it meet silver plated copper buss?Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on the inside of my buss bypass (picture #31) so it will be ready to crimp, then solder to copper clad #4 aluminium wire?See pictures #31 to #34:http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album266&id=bb8&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.phpI fooled with soldering to silver plated copperand brass with 60-40 and 63-37 and it works great.I want to try a silver bearing solder: Tin/Lead/Silver/Antimony with Rosin Flux&mdash; Composed of 62% tin, 35.75% lead, 2% silver, and 0.25% antimony. For use on silver-plated surfaces and heat-sensitive components and near previously soldered joints. Meets Fed. Spec. QQ-S-571E and J-STD-006. this solder has a lower melting point than 63-37, and I believe becauers it has some silver, it will be easier on silver plating??Whats your thought on using this solder on silver plating?I think it will also be good for soldering surface mounted components that I need to do on occasion? It is 5 core rosin flux solder part #                                                                                                                      [url=javascript:TargetLink(\'TR983\',\'tr\',\'PT9831\',\'7687A63\');]7687A63[/url]                                                                                 from McMaster.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:01 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on 

 the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals?



No.  And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it 
	


with your shirt tail.  They have the same efficacy, BTW.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on 

 the inside of my buss bypass (picture #31) so it will be ready to 

 crimp, then solder to copper clad #4 aluminium wire?



Polishing with a bit of 180 grit sandpaper or a pencil eraser would be a 
	


better prep for crimping and soldering.  What is 1/10,00 of an inch of 

pure anything supposed to do for you?  The copper is still showing 

through, so you haven't sealed it from environmental oxygen.  Soldering 

is an exercise is dissolving some lead/tin alloy in with the surface of 

copper.  Your 1/10,000" layer of silver just becomes part of the mix.  A 

little flux on the copper before the soldering is going to do more for 

you and an permeable layer of silver dust.

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.N
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Hi Ernest



Thx. for the reply



">> Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on

 	  Quote: 	
		  > the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals?

>

 No.  And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it

 with your shirt tail.  They have the same efficacy, BTW."


	


"The copper is still showing through, so you haven't sealed it from

environmental oxygen."



The pictures from the I-Phone did not do a very good job taking picture of

a shiny object. There is no copper showing through, the silver in fact

completely covered the copper.



Copper in fact does corrode into a non conductive surface. Silver does not

oxidize but will react with sulfides in the air and form silver sulfide,

which is a bit unsightly, but none the less conductive.



Why are terminals, terminal blocks and terminal block hardware plated?



Are you saying that we would be just as well off using lets say ring

terminals with no plating, just pure copper and sand contact area before

application with 180 grit sandpaper, and the 180 grit sand marks are going

to go away because you are going to tighten and mush both surfaces

together with no chance that there are areas where the sand marks will

allow corrosion to occur and creep into airtight sealed areas?? It's just

a matter it's a greater amount of work to sand each contact area?



Trying to understand.



Sincerely

Ron Parigoris

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

rparigor(at)SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Ernest

 Thx. for the reply

 ">> Do you see a problem depositing about 1/10,000 inch of pure silver on

>> the areas of buss bar where it will meet tin plated terminals?

>>

>>       

> No.  And there is also no problem with spitting on it and polishing it

> with your shirt tail.  They have the same efficacy, BTW."

>     

 "The copper is still showing through, so you haven't sealed it from

 environmental oxygen."

 The pictures from the I-Phone did not do a very good job taking picture of

 a shiny object. There is no copper showing through, the silver in fact

 completely covered the copper.

Believe it or not, your iPhone most likely did a better job of showing 

the true state of affairs than your eyes 8*)  Our eyes tend to spread 

shiny and make it appear to cover more area than it actually does.  It's 

hard to "see through" the shiny.  That's why we test the silver coat on 

our fabric with a light bulb. 

Make a sample of copper scrap, coated halfway along the length.  Hang it 

in your shower or other hot/humid environment for a few months.  If 

there is anything more than minor differences in the corrosion rate, 

I'll send you a new dollar. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Copper in fact does corrode into a non conductive surface. Silver does not

 oxidize but will react with sulfides in the air and form silver sulfide,

 which is a bit unsightly, but none the less conductive.

Which would be a great argument for silver plating.  Real silver 

plating.  Where ALL the copper is protected, not just enough to fool the 

human eye into thinking that it is all covered.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Why are terminals, terminal blocks and terminal block hardware plated?

It is cheap to have a machine do the plating in an industrial setting.  

Much cheaper than even a few returned items due to a Chinese subsistence 

day-laborers failing to tighten a screw properly.  Much cheaper than 

having to have the day-laborer clean the contacts after they sat in a 

humid warehouse for several years.  It is also prettier, and makes 

storage and future changes less problematic (ie, you don't have to clean 

the terminals every time you move wires around). 

Still, there is a big difference between a process controlled plating 

process, and wiping on some silver dust with a damp cloth.  There is a 

lot of energy pumped into a plating machine to insure that the nickel is 

properly bonded to the copper.  Where is the energy to make sure the 

silver dust bonds?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are you saying that we would be just as well off using lets say ring

 terminals with no plating, just pure copper and sand contact area before

 application with 180 grit sandpaper, and the 180 grit sand marks are going

 to go away because you are going to tighten and mush both surfaces

 together with no chance that there are areas where the sand marks will

 allow corrosion to occur and creep into airtight sealed areas?? It's just

 a matter it's a greater amount of work to sand each contact area?

Yes.  But it is no more work than wiping on the magic potion.  Copper is 

soft, and mushes easily.  Under the entire ring terminal, you only need 

as much surface area to be in intimate contact as the cross-sectional 

area of the wire to maintain the same line resistance.  Remove a few 

properly torqued screw from plain copper ring terminals and see how much 

deformation there is.  Hint: there' s a LOT.  Also note how the area 

under the fastener is bright and shiny, while the outside edges are 

gunky and corroded.  My rotary engine uses copper seals under banjo 

fittings, because it will deform and seal up air tight.  Lycoming spark 

plugs use a copper washer for the same reason.  No silver dust needed.

Make no mistake.  I don't think the silver dust will do any harm.  But 

from my experience, I can't believe that it is more than a tedious 

exercise with no payback.

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

Silver plating copper is not a good idea. See:



http://www.hmwire.com/plating.html



from the site:



"Plating for Copper and Copper Alloys:



Silver - ....When silver is plated over copper there can be an accelerated corrosion of the copper at pinholes or breaks in the silver plating. It is then susceptible to the formation of cuprous oxide when stored or used in a moist or high humidity environment. The corrosion is known as "red plague" and is identifiable by the presence of a brown-red powder deposit on the exposed copper...."

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

At 10:13 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Silver plating copper is not a good idea. See:



http://www.hmwire.com/plating.html



from the site:



Plating for Copper and Copper Alloys:



Silver - ....When silver is plated over copper there can be an 

accelerated corrosion of the copper at pinholes or breaks in the 

silver plating. It is then susceptible to the formation of cuprous 

oxide when stored or used in a moist or high humidity environment. 

The corrosion is known as "red plague" and is identifiable by the 

presence of a brown-red powder deposit on the exposed copper...."


	


    Which goes back to the simple-idea of "gas tightness"

    in a fabricated joint. To get corrosion you need an

    ingress location for an oxidizer (usually atmospheric

    oxygen but there are thousands of other oxidizing

    agents) usually dissolved in moisture.



    ALL pre-treatments one might incorporate for the

    purpose improving quality/longevity of a joint

    become moot when you mash and/or amalgam the two

    materials to be joined such that oxidizers and

    moisture are physically excluded from entering

    the joint.



    Probably the best thing one could do with bolted

    joint of less than pristine surfaces is wipe some

    silicone grease on one of the mating surfaces before

    mating. Any voids in the joint due to surface

    irregularities are prevented from being antagonistic

    havens for bad karma. At the same time, any place

    the two materials have been extruded a single

    piece of material, the pressures involve will

    squirt the grease out like toothpaste.



    Again, goops and goos pre-joining cannot replace

    or even do much to enhance good craftsmanship

    and preparation in making up the connection.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yes.  But it is no more work than wiping on the magic 

potion.  Copper is soft, and mushes easily.  Under the entire ring 

terminal, you only need as much surface area to be in intimate 

contact as the cross-sectional area of the wire to maintain the same 

line resistance.  Remove a few properly torqued screw from plain 

copper ring terminals and see how much deformation there is.  Hint: 

there' s a LOT.  Also note how the area under the fastener is bright 

and shiny, while the outside edges are gunky and corroded.  My 

rotary engine uses copper seals under banjo fittings, because it 

will deform and seal up air tight.  Lycoming spark plugs use a 

copper washer for the same reason.  No silver dust needed.



Make no mistake.  I don't think the silver dust will do any 

harm.  But from my experience, I can't believe that it is more than 

a tedious exercise with no payback.


	


   YES! One of the points I hit on in the weekend

   seminars is the value of  force/area=pressure

   where the act of tightening a nut down on a malleable

   copper terminal literally deforms the surface to

   achieve "oneness" between mating surfaces.



   I like to tie a ground terminal down to the airframe

   with no smaller than a 8-32 fastener having a metal

   locknut to keep the pressure high over the lifetime

   of the joint.



   Once the joint is properly made, the vulnerabilities

   of time and environment are at the parting line which is

   very small and offers little risk of being breached.

   These are cases where physically squashing two items

   into intimate contact with each other is a good thing.



   Bob . . .

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Re: What's thoughts on Cool Amp?

While Bob and others have thoroughly covered the topic very well, I thought I might add personal experience with cool-amp.

My job as an electrician for a major automobile manufacturer, I worked for most of my career in the body shops. We used cool-amp on resistance welding equipment connections. These connections, are subjected to current ranges from thousands to tens of thousands of amps of current.

the necessity stems from the nature of the welding process. the "resistance" in resistance welding refers to the resistance of the junction of 2 or more body panels. that interface is measured in a few hundred micro-ohms, and passing huge ammounts of current through that small resistance generates the heat of fusion. The silver plating on the connections ensures that the heat is generated where we want a weld to take place, not , say at the transformer feeding weld gun.

When repairs are made to connections, we would use the cool amp to re-plate a damaged connection. As maintenance budgets dwindled, the cool-amp ran out, we had to make repairs without it. What was important in the repaired connection became that the conductor connections surfaces needed to be as flat and clean as possible. as long as the mating surfaces were as high a quality as we could finish them, and tightened properly, they functioned just as well without the cool-amp.

I highly doubt that cool-amp will add any measurable improvements in reliability for your home-builder applications. Save your money.

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

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