Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Stall/Spins

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

myersf(at)COMCAST.NET
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: Stall/Spins

I am a long time lurker and I’d love to someday become a  proud participant in formation clinics. Hopefully I can afford a CJ or a -52 on my meager salary someday. So I carefully will give you my opinion.  

   

I am not sure the accident in Texas has as much to do with Spins/Upset as much as slow speed awareness and airmanship. I am not at all slamming a pilot I have never met. I have geared up an aircraft and I am certainly not without other sins. But I think discussing spin characteristics and spin recovery techniques is kind of missing the point. I say this because it would take a VERY special aircraft and pilot combination to be able to conduct a spin/spin recovery at less than 200’ agl. I should also say that should this aerobatic maneuver be accomplished successfully that it would be planned and expected. Mr. Forrest was not planning a low altitude aerobatic maneuver and I suspect that he barely had the words “Oh Shit” out before he hit.  

   

As an airport kid who hung around the local CAF wing and reading Air Classics like it was the bible, I remember very clearly the stories about how Ed Mahoney taught his son John and other Chino Kids (Steve Hinton and others) how to fly the fighters and bombers of his museum. The emphasis was flight at minimum controllable airspeed and stall recognition/recovery. Ed would not allow the kids to advance to other aircraft or make demonstrations until he felt the kids had mastered the stall/slow flight characteristics of the current plane.  

   

While I was CFI’ing many years ago, I found it quite surprising that pilots with decades of experience over me were reluctant or refused to do Vmca. Some of the reasons were engine abuse, discomfort, and fear. I accept that engine repair costs can be considerable but when compared to death, a cylinder seems trivial. The cost of the QUALIFIED Instructor for help is usually a better investment than insurance. Stall and slow flight characteristics must be practiced to a point that recognition/recovery is as natural as breathing. Also just being comfortable with being slow and knowing how the aircraft behaves goes a long way.  

   

I just don’t think that comparing 4 different aircraft with different characteristics and discussing inverted flat spin recovery is relevant. I just don’t see the connection between a lead having a low speed / altitude accident while trying to be situationally aware of 2 other aircraft in the landing pattern. Also being less than a week from the accident we don’t know if there was a mechanical issue or not.  

   

So I suggest that going out and doing a lot of flight at minimum controllable airspeed and stalls in all conditions would be a closer solution to the current circumstance.  

   

Fran Myers  

       [quote][b]

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Stall/Spins

I. Nnn

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

Last edited by N642K on Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: Stall/Spins

Folks,

 I am not sure the accident in Texas has  anything at all to do with stalls or spins or slow flight. 

 There is a ongoing accident investigation in  progress and to introduce pilot error as a probable cause at this point is  premature to say the least.

 I can think of several things that could cause this  kind of a problem without the pilot being directly responsible.

 We could mention FOD, or control system  failures, stroke or heart attack and I am sure you could add to  these possibilities. 

 The reason the probable cause of an accident takes  so long`is that there are a lot of scenarios that must be considered  .

 I think the family has suffered enough. Lets end  this idle speculation.

 Terry Lewis 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: Stall/Spins

Dear Mike and others,

 

 My condolences on your loss and the Johnson families loss.  As for this and just about any other list sites you have now experienced what many of us have in the past, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone seems to have one!"

 

 Why we humans can't hold our tongues anymore is beyond me, my Father, God rest his forthright soul, would be appalled at the things that go on in our world today.  At the very least please accept my apology for anyone or anything that might have offended you or Mr. Johnson's family that was said on the Yak List.  

 

 Regards,

 Gary 'Bunndini' Bunn

 Vector Warbirds USA

 

   

 

   

 

 --

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:02 pm Post subject: Stall/Spins

AMEN !!



Topics lead to other topics and I do not believe any of the common posters on this topic, Mark, Jerry, Craig, Pappy, Andre, Scott, Richard, myself and others are linking the current topic of aerobatics and spins to the recent tragic accident.

Herb



On Jan 9, 2009, at 2:19 PM, terry lewis wrote:

[quote]Folks,

I am not sure the accident in Texas has anything at all to do with stalls or spins or slow flight.

There is a ongoing accident investigation in progress and to introduce pilot error as a probable cause at this point is premature to say the least.

I can think of several things that could cause this kind of a problem without the pilot being directly responsible.

We could mention FOD, or control system failures, stroke or heart attack and I am sure you could add to these possibilities.

The reason the probable cause of an accident takes so long`is that there are a lot of scenarios that must be considered .

I think the family has suffered enough. Lets end this idle speculation.

Terry Lewis 

 

 

[quote]---

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: Stall/Spins

I certainly understand what you're saying, Mr. DeCanio. And I whole-heartedly commend your noble effort to maintain the good name of a lost friend. As many of you can attest to, I'm sure we all know fellow pilots who are always all-too-eager to critically analyze an incident without being fully knowledgeable on the facts and circumstances. But I believe it's these "armchair-quarterbacks" whom fear their own mortality the most, and they take refuge in finding quick mistakes rather than simply acknowledging that what we do is fraught with hazard - and if we fly w/ even the slightest bit or complacency or arrogance, even the very best will get "bit." I have no doubt that Mr. Johnson did all he could to insure the safety of himself, his crew

  

 I did not know Mr. Johnson, but perhaps I knew him in a way - through our passion for something in life that cannot be adequately explained via simple verbiage: it must be experienced. I'm sorry to have lost a potential friend, and I'm tragically sorry for the multiple families impacted forever by this incident. 

  

 If you choose to draw judgement, please do so introspectively. Remember, "pride comes before the fall."

  

 My sincere and heart-felt condolences to those of you directly connected to this accident. And let it please be a reminder to us that in someone's eyes - we are all held as precious and irreplaceable.

  

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> "N642K" <mdecanio(at)mac.com> 1/9/2009 2:01 PM >>>

--> Yak-List message posted by: "N642K" <mdecanio(at)mac.com>
	




Mr Myers,



While the discussion of spin/stall training has become the primary topic here, everyone has been extremely sensitive about not relating it to the current tragedy that took place at my airport.  



Forrest was my friend and you do yourself a disservice by flippantly suggesting what Mr. Johnson's last words may have been or what may have caused his accident.  I urge you to delete that posting.  Please consider that he had many, many friends here and a family with access to this site.



Discuss training all you want.  I, in fact, encourage you to participate in the meaningful discussions that have taken place here recently but do so without trodding on the open wounds of grieving friends and relatives.



Sincerely,

Mike DeCanio

940-390-4747





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223731#223731http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Lis            -                          .matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

_-===================================





  [quote][b]

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Yak-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum