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jetech
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 15
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 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: System recommendations |
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I am looking at the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and would like some opinions on which route to take.
The plane is a PA-22, we would like to replace the vacuum driven horizon and compass along with the airspeed, T&B, rate of climb and altimeter with a Aspen PFD.
We will add a GPS, transponder, and comm and retain the stock mechanical engine instruments, mags, mag switch and push to start.
The generator will be replaced with a Plane Power SAL12-70 alternator and R1224 regulator. The starter will be replaced with a Skytec starter.
The plane will be VFR but it would be nice to have the voltmeter, GPS, transponder, comm and maybe the PFD (even though it has an internal backup battery) on an E-bus.
The Z-11 looks a little more practical for this application. Am I missing anything if I use the Z-11 and substitute the Plane Power Alternator/regulator circuit and use the Z-13 push to start?
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: System recommendations |
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At 09:15 PM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I am looking at the Z-11 and Z-13 schematics and would like some
opinions on which route to take.
The plane is a PA-22, we would like to replace the vacuum driven
horizon and compass along with the airspeed, T&B, rate of climb and
altimeter with a Aspen PFD.
We will add a GPS, transponder, and comm and retain the stock
mechanical engine instruments, mags, mag switch and push to start.
The generator will be replaced with a Plane Power SAL12-70
alternator and R1224 regulator. The starter will be replaced with a
Skytec starter.
The plane will be VFR but it would be nice to have the voltmeter,
GPS, transponder, comm and maybe the PFD (even though it has an
internal backup battery) on an E-bus.
The Z-11 looks a little more practical for this application. Am I
missing anything if I use the Z-11 and substitute the Plane Power
Alternator/regulator circuit and use the Z-13 push to start?
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Yes. But as along as you don't plan to have a vacuum
pump on the engine, you might consider at least pre-wiring
for the SD-8 alternator even if it's not installed immediately.
This would make it easy to add later if you so desire.
Where is the battery located in this aircraft? Have
you started a list of electro-whizzies with some
initial thoughts as to which bus those devices get
power. Get copies of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Beeline%20load_analysis.xls
and start organizing your ideas according to bus
structures. You don't need to have all the numbers
for the boxes just yet. Just start the documents and
have them to show that good tools and rationale planning
are part of your project planning.
Exactly what you choose to install for accessories
has importance to us only if somebody on the list has
a particular tid-bit of information germane to that
equipment item. The things we can help with go to architecture,
understanding and meeting design goals, and swapping detail
features between the Z-figures (like the starter switch).
I presume this aircraft is still under the jurisdiction
of those who know more about airplanes than we do.
A key task before you is to convince them that what you
propose is (safe/legal/sane/holy-watered) as determined
by someone who sits at a desk and will never see
your airplane. Your Form 337 documentation can begin
with citing observance of every pertinent paragraph
out of AC43-13 (bureaucrats adore hearing litanies
they wrote recited back to them). Beyond that, you'll
need a narrative that describes the DIFFERENCES between
what you propose and what was originally installed
in words that convinces them that agreeing with you
doesn't put their pension at risk.
Be aware that you may be asked to do a max load,
hot day Vy climb study on your alternator as installed
with respect to cooling. If you'd like to use a REAL
battery as opposed to some $high$ PMA'd battery,
there will be a round of document sparing there
too.
Finally, your reviewers will have a great deal more
confidence in their decision if the AI you're working
with has a good working relationship, some past
experience in vintage upgrades, and can explain things
to the reviewers in words they're convinced
they should understand. Having a professional looking
wire book, an emergency procedures and instructions
for continued airworthiness document will put icing
on your document package.
It may be that somebody somewhere has pulled off
a similar upgrade to a venerable bird without so
much fuss. Don't downgrade your efforts to match
any such success story. Former 337 activities
do constitute approved documents upon which
future efforts can rely. However, there are plenty of
individuals within any governing body who may
find past achievements wanting for proper
respect and demeanor and will require YOU
to make up for it.
I'm not suggesting that everyone within the FAA
is running between blinders and/or not qualified
at their jobs. But it only takes ONE detractor
of MANY supporters to make your life difficult/
impossible.
Task 1. Put your team together. Find an AI,
write up a narrative of what you want to do
to the airplane. Append your load analysis
sheets to the back. Include a list of resources
you will tap for support/consulting. This list
should include AC43-13, Part 23, and Part 91.
It probably wouldn't hurt to add the AeroElectric
Connection and any other learned texts on
the arts and crafts in your bibliography.
I can provide a resume to support any citations
you may make to my work.
Now have your AI go to the cognizant offices
of the FAA and build the regulatory side of
your team. Get to know everybody on your team
on a first name basis. Try to build a relationship
that encourages friendly, open-channel communications
so that you don't risk getting told, "No, you'll
have to rip that out and do it over/different".
I'd be pleased to help you craft the wire book
and supporting documents. You have an opportunity
to do TWO very important things here:
(1) Upgrade this venerable old airplane to
YOUR design goals that do not compromise
utility and safety and . . .
(2) Craft a 337 package that is so far above
anything done in the past that YOUR
project becomes the gold standard for
others who have dreams for their own
vintage aircraft. Your 337 package can
become the cited reference as well as
an example of format and content that will
ease the way for those who come after
you.
If the project is successful, I'd encourage
you to deposit the 337 package in any and
all cooperating archives including the Short
Wing Piper Club. AeroElectric.com would
be pleased to be the first.
Bob . . .
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jetech
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: System recommendations |
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Bob
I will look into the SD-8, It would be easy to pre-wire for it.
The battery is located under the right front seat, it has local ground with a short lead. There is a electrical box under the front of the left seat that contains the start relay, some fuses and the push to start.
Electro-whizzies, Well here is what I have so far, I haven't thought about which bus gets what yet.
AeroElectric dimmer
SSF-1 wig-wag
LED map lights
Some type of panel lighting
Under the wing light
Aft cabin lighting
Intercom
PFD
GPS
Comm
X-ponder
Alt warning lgt
Upgraded ammeter
As an A&P I haven't been very involved with electrical system design, I did design a system for a Warner Sporster but I wish I had found your site sooner, I think I would have done a better job.
I would like to learn the correct approach to designing a system so I am here to learn.
As far as design goals, This is our company airplane, It will be used to advertise our restoration abilities. Our main goal is to update it to current standards with the main focus being the interior and electrical system.
This model didn't have much of an electrical system, it is pretty basic and I don't think I can add much more to it unless I convert the mechanical engine instruments to electrical. I had a hard time selling the idea of a PFD to my partner (he is the IA) so he probably wont let me do that because he wants to keep some original equipment.
Can you elaborate on the batter issue? It would be great to get rid of the PMA'd battery.
I would like to make some real substantial alterations to the plane, something that hasn't been done yet. Two areas that could benefit are the combination nav lgt/dimmer switch and the fuel system with the aux fuel tank.
The nav light can be fixed with a separate switch and dimmer. The fuel system can be fixed somewhat with Eddie Trimmers fuel system STC but it would be even better if the fuel transfer from the aux tank to the right wing tank was automatic without pilot intervention.
Our company is a member of the short wing piper club and we have every intention of posting our paperwork there and anywhere else that has interest.
I welcome your help and have already talked with a local EAA chapter about hosting you for a weekend.
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: System recommendations |
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At 07:55 PM 1/9/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob
I will look into the SD-8, It would be easy to pre-wire for it.
The battery is located under the right front seat, it has local
ground with a short lead. There is a electrical box under the front
of the left seat that contains the start relay, some fuses and the
push to start.
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Okay, this COULD continue to be a location for power
distribution. How does your partner feel about modern
fuse blocks?
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fuse_Holders/Fuse%20Holders.jpg
These are inexpensive and have proven themselves as
suited to task in what must now be thousands of
OBAM aircraft.
| Quote: | Electro-whizzies, Well here is what I have so far,
AeroElectric dimmer
SSF-1 wig-wag
LED map lights
Some type of panel lighting
Under the wing light
Aft cabin lighting
Intercom
PFD
GPS
Comm
X-ponder
Alt warning lgt
Upgraded ammeter
As an A&P I haven't been very involved with electrical system
design, I did design a system for a Warner Sporster but I wish I had
found your site sooner, I think I would have done a better job.
I would like to learn the correct approach to designing a system so
I am here to learn.
|
| Quote: | As far as design goals, This is our company airplane, It will be
used to advertise our restoration abilities. Our main goal is to
update it to current standards with the main focus being the
interior and electrical system.
|
"Current standards" is a nebulous term . . . interpreted
by most bureaucrats as "don't do it any different than
BePiCesMo has been doing it for . . . oh let's say the
past 30 years". Anything outside this box is viewed with
anticipation of being able to bring a lot of regulatory
"attention and assistance" to bear against your project.
The regulators can get just as excited about being
involved in something new as you are. What's more, they
can demand a spot on your team whether you think you
need it or not. Of course, all $time$ expended on their
part is at taxpayer expense and they're not concerned
with the cost additional $time$ levied on you.
The problem with "updating" an aging aircraft hinges
on whether you'll be allowed to do this as a 337 or
be forced to do an STC. Now, a very well crafted and
documented 337 can have all the appearances of an STC
but without the burden of no-value-added qualification
and piles of paper. There is a thing called a "one time
STC" that accommodates an owner's desire and ability
to accomplish a major modification to a TC aircraft
without all the pomp and circumstance of a full-blown
cert program. The one-time-STC cannot be sold. But
I don't think it precludes the sharing of approved
data for the purpose of accomplishing a similar
process to another airplane.
My personal idea of a cost effective flying machine
is to de-certify a Pacer or Tri-Pacer, rip out all
the electrical/instrumentation system. Rip out the
back seat and install a baggage/cargo platform. Rip
out the bench seat in front and install some nice
buckets from a car. Install Z-13/8 with toggle switches,
and fuse blocks. Maximize the numbers of instruments
utilizing LCD displays. This means all new Tefzel
wiring, modern RG battery - probably 17AH, modern
alternator(s), switches, etc.
| Quote: | This model didn't have much of an electrical system, it is pretty
basic and I don't think I can add much more to it unless I convert
the mechanical engine instruments to electrical. I had a hard time
selling the idea of a PFD to my partner so he probably wont let me do that.
|
Okay, doesn't sound like your project is a
candidate for the modification(s) I described
above - a 100% change-out for modern architecture
and components.
| Quote: | Can you elaborate on the batter issue? It would be great to get rid
of the PMA'd battery.
I would like to make some real substantial alterations to the plane,
something that hasn't been done yet. Two areas that could benefit
are the combination nav lgt/dimmer switch and the fuel system with
the aux fuel tank.
|
While these are useful modifications, I would classify them
as detailed enhancements to an existing system.
| Quote: | The nav light can be fixed with a separate switch and dimmer. The
fuel system can be fixed somewhat with Eddie Trimmers fuel system
STC but it would be even better if the fuel transfer from the aux
tank to the right wing tank was automatic without pilot intervention.
|
This implies some degree of automation which
usually calls for calibrated sensors to manage
power to a transfer pump, warn against failed
pumps and guard against stuck pumps that
risk pumping fuel overboard. In the eyes of
the FAA, this is a MAJOR system alternation
that would cost more than the airplane is worth
to get an STC on it.
| Quote: | Our company is a member of the short wing piper club and we have
every intention of posting our paperwork there and anywhere else
that has interest.
|
Okay, this is where we need to synchronize visions
of what the final product is going to look like.
The original wiring in the airplane was mil-76
cotton over rubber, 7-strand wire. Even if the
wire is still in good shape, it would be good to
consider replacing all easily accessed runs with
Tefzel. This is allowed under ordinary maintenance
operations described in AC43-13.
Replacement of funky 50's push-pull and rotary
switches with modern toggles is also allowed as
a maintenance item . . . especially if you use
mil-spec hardware.
Replacement of fuses and factory stock breakers
is pretty much encouraged . . . again no questions
asked if you use mil-spec hardware.
Hanging PMA or TSO electronics on the panel using
best shop practices is a no-brainer although
I've heard that some FAA jurisdictions are requiring
337 forms to be submitted for accessory installations
even if it's STC'ed. These used to be a log
book entry only.
Swapping out PMA junk batteries for modern SVLA
devices, adding an e-bus, adding the SD-8 are ideas
that will get somebody's shorts in a bunch somewhere.
This is why I suggested that it was important to
assemble a bottom-to-top team of folks and craft
a detailed statement of work that the whole team
understands and supports before you launch
into the project. Many such projects have stalled
when unforeseen "requirements" were discovered
along the way. Delays and backtracking can become
prohibitively expensive.
Now, if you could only de-certify the airplane like
in Canada . . . you could treat it like an RV7
and we could do some really good things for your
airplane at a coat you're willing to support.
| Quote: | I welcome your help and have already talked with a local EAA chapter
about hosting you for a weekend.
|
I'd be pleased to come share a weekend of airplane-
speak with your friends. Let's work on it.
Bob . . .
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jetech
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: System recommendations |
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| Quote: | Okay, this COULD continue to be a location for power
distribution. How does your partner feel about modern
fuse blocks?
This box isn't very big but I was thinking of using it to house the battery contactor, main battery bus, and push to start. Fuse blocks would work the best is this location.
|
The problem with "updating" an aging aircraft hinges
on whether you'll be allowed to do this as a 337 or
be forced to do an STC. Now, a very well crafted and
documented 337 can have all the appearances of an STC
but without the burden of no-value-added qualification
and piles of paper.[quote]
I agree, I would sure like to push it through as a 337. When you look at the the available previous 337 modifications you find there just isn't much out there for the PA-22. You have the standard things like sky lights, alternator, oil cooler and a host of other minor changes. Everyone seems content on flying with wires, switches and instruments that are 50 years or older. They keep patching up faulty, dirty worn out equipment while the OBAM crowd enjoys updated technology that is right up there with the heavy jets.
I think great progress would be made for the short wing pipers if we could get paperwork through that allows a better than stock electrical system with features such as fuse blocks, e-bus, single point ground, etc.
our plane doesn't have complex systems and isn't IFR but I think it is a good starting point to spur the interest of others. We probably don't need three buses but incorporating them into the system may help the next person with a full IFR panel and the desire to add more electro-whizzies.
| Quote: | This means all new Tefzel
wiring, modern RG battery - probably 17AH, modern
alternator(s), switches, etc. |
I already have the Tefzel in stock, the original harness is on the bench and will not go back in.
| Quote: | While these are useful modifications, I would classify them
as detailed enhancements to an existing system. |
Ok, I can live with detailed enhancements, any upgrade is a step forward.
| Quote: | This implies some degree of automation which
usually calls for calibrated sensors to manage
power to a transfer pump, warn against failed
pumps and guard against stuck pumps that
risk pumping fuel overboard. In the eyes of
the FAA, this is a MAJOR system alternation
that would cost more than the airplane is worth
to get an STC on it. |
I am sure you are correct on this. It would probably cause the local Fed's eyes to cage and a major short circuit to occur.
Mostly wishful thinking. It would be nice to remove the electrical switch on the pull lever and just use an on/off switch, but then again a procedure would probably have to be written. Maybe a different type or design switch can be used in place of the original.
| Quote: | This is why I suggested that it was important to
assemble a bottom-to-top team of folks and craft
a detailed statement of work that the whole team
understands and supports before you launch
into the project. |
Ok, If I understand correctly, I should compose a basic concept, something not to left field but has a chance getting approved. Then maybe solicit comments, input from other short wing owners might be good. Gather support from the manufacturers whose products will be used. Sometime during the early stages meet with fSDO and sell the idea to them and ask for their participation. Once the concept becomes a plan submit the paperwork.
What program do you use to draw your schematics?
The local EAA will probably have their next meeting in Feb, I will ask the officers to present your services then and hopefully there will be a large interest. My company has offered to co-host with the EAA.
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Leo Holler
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:54 am Post subject: Re: System recommendations |
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Am in the middle of a redesign/rewire (Z-11) for a PA-22/20.
After di-secting the old push button starter, I decided I'd never want it as part of my circuitry again. The PA-22 (mine, anyway) did not have a starter contactor, so contact was only as fast as my finger could close the gap. The degraded condition of the contacts suggested that wasn't fast enough. Adding that problem to the problematic long length of the cable from the bottom right seat area to the starter button and then on to the starter and I finally knew why my starter never exibited any signs of glee when I mashed the button.
I had already planned to replace the old starter button with a starter contactor (available reasonably at B&C or elsewhere) and a small dash mounted button. For the money, I'd recommend that change to you as well and for sure consider what Bob has suggested about the old battery. My old style is going away and will be replaced with a new any position battery; it will be located in the left boot cowl area with access via a door on the boot cowl. Am still in the design stage for the mount. Good luck on your changes.
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jetech
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Re: System recommendations |
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Hi Leo
I haven't looked at the PTS button yet but I will now. We have a keyed switch but it is kind of nice to have the button under the seat, most people can't figure out how to start it.
Good luck with your battery relocation.
Do you have the stock starter, if so have you looked at a Sky-tec starter yet? A big improvement.
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