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jaybannist(at)cs.com
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 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Friends,
I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn’t just fall off a turnip truck. Believe me, when you are faced with death, you are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze the situation. You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal. Your survival instinct and training are your only resources. Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral.
If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for. Other than “stay calm and fly the airplane”, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react. You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome.
So, please. No more advise. No more second guessing. None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced. It is over and I did the right thing. I AM ALIVE.
Jay Bannister
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
[quote][b]
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Jay,
If you don't want anyone to comment on it don't bring up what happened to
you. I had pics of someone flying with the Canopy open and he just had to apply
more power and fly the plane. I can't see how the 601 you were flying could
be any different than the thousands that were built exactly like yours. And I
now know of 3 others that have landed with them open so it will fly if you
don't get behind the plane, even ZAC says it will.
There is no way for you to take this any way but personal so why bring it up
on the list because it just upsets you and what's the point in that.
As you can see in the photo's this plane had a nose up attitude and landed
without incident with more power applied
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Larry Hursh
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Open canopy accident |
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Mr Garrett,
What you don't seem to understand is that Jay has possibly posted to the wrong forum. I believe he is posting to a response from the Zenith 601 forum, correct Jay? (Isn't that the forum you are banned from Mr Garrett?) Either way, I found your reply to Jay as being very crass and without any compassion. You wasn't there so you have NO CLUE as to what to do or what should have been done differently. Each and every circumstance is different. Sure the POH can give you a possible corrective course of action, but NOTHING is for certain and since you wasn't there, you have no idea as to what you should do or what you would have done differently. Why is it that you seemed to want to chastise Jay for mentioning it? All I can say to end this mess is THANK GOD Jay and his CFI II was able to get the plane on the ground. I'll leave you with this one final thought Mr Garrett - My father used to tell me, "If you can't say anything nice to someone, it's just best to keep your mouth SHUT and your eyes and ears OPEN. You learn more that way". 
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_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)
"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."
CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered |
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tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Jay,
I'm glad you will be able to enjoy the sky again in your XL.
I believe that under the circumstances, most pilots, including me, would have reduced power if the canopy opened and the nose pitched extremely nose down at pattern altitude. It would seem to be the correct response.
Based on your experience, I will annotate my POH to try full power if the situation should ever happen to me. I have the "old" style latch and have taken off with one side not completely closed, although still attached by the latch safety detent. - you know it by hearing increased air noise when you throttle back..
Hope to never have a fully open canopy in flight, but your experience may lead to a more happy ending for others. At the least, it makes us more aware to carefully check the canopy latches before takeoff.
Tony Graziano
601XL/Jab3300; 460 really enjoyable hrs; N493TG
Buchanan, Tn
[quote] ---
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hills(at)sunflower.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Jay;
Being a fellow survivor of a forced landing after my new prop broke off my 601, I can understand what you are saying and I have to agree with your advice to stay calm and fly the plane. And that’s not just my opinion either, as I noticed a statistic (while reading Stick and Rudder) that about 75% of the time, when a pilot is killed in a forced landing it is because of LOSS OF CONTROL. What ????? Yes that’s right, the pilot dies because he losses control of the plane. It’s that simple. Don’t’ loose control, and you probably wont’ die, you will just land like us.
My advice to all of you is to practice power off landings, get use to flying with no power, keeping the speed up and the noise down and don’t make any radical wing banks or quick panicky stick movements. Just work the problem and fly the plane. It sounds simple, but until you have lost power and are coming down, you probably don’t know how hard it is to keep your head on flying and not on what might happen to you when you touch the ground. Force landings are something you can train for, so do it and don’t just stick your head in the sand and say; it won’t happen to me.
(You might also try flying a combat flight simulator, there is nothing like being shot down 1000 times…..)
Finally, Jay and I survived, and so can you, just fly the plane and get it into your head that your going down, so accept it and just fly the plane and if you DON’T’ loose control of your self, and the plane, your probably going to be fine.
Roger Hill
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 10:44 AM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Open canopy accident
Friends,
I have been flying about thirty years. I have survived four engine stoppages, two on takeoff, one a broken crank at cruise; and a crash. I didn’t just fall off a turnip truck. Believe me, when you are faced with death, you are not thinking about what a Monday morning peer review might say about your performance. You are intent on saving your life. You do not analyze the situation. You react in whatever manner and with whatever methods you have at your disposal. Your survival instinct and training are your only resources. Facing death is not an academic experience. It is purely visceral.
If your canopy pops open in flight, it will be a different situation and a different experience from mine. It is not something you can train for. Other than “stay calm and fly the airplane”, NO ONE can tell you what to do or how to react. You are on your own. It is YOUR life and YOU will determine the outcome.
So, please. No more advise. No more second guessing. None of you were in that cockpit with me so you can't possibly know what I faced. It is over and I did the right thing. I AM ALIVE.
Jay Bannister
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Zenith listers,
This is a very interesting topic for me and I feel qualified to add to the conversation. I have had 2 inadverdant open canopy experiences with my CH601XL. Gratefully no one was injured and no metal was bent. The first opening occured on the second day of my 40 hour fligh testing. Day 1 was a great day and I was eager to fly my newly fledged bird the following day. At the time I was flying out of a local grass strip. As I was taking off I progressed a bit further down the field and hit a small bump that made the aircraft jump into the air and popping the canopy open at the same time. Let me say it wasn't anything like when the old flight instructors trick of a Cessna or Piper door opening in flight. THIS SUCKED! My vision was blocked by the canopy, the canopy could not be shut in flight, the propeller slipstream pressurized the canopy and there was a tremendous amount of drag, confusion, noise, wind and maps and stuff flying around the cockpit. The distraction of the experience was intense, however, I did my best to fly the airplane. Once "stabilized" I was able to climb albeit slowly and I was able to declare an emergency, a fellow pilot on the ground was able to talk to me and help me visually land the plane as I dealt with the canopy moving about. I landed, got my "sh.....t together", said a prayer of thanks, took a little time to check things out and I spent the rest of the day flying my aircraft without incident.
That experience got me thinking and once I got home I realized that I just wasn't that confident about the latching mechanisms designed by Zenith and installed by me. I did some soul searching and then some serious research and design and I bought some specialty latches from McMaster Carr that would give me some rock solid redundancy in terms of keeping my canopy latched. I guess trying to get both barrels to lock while the canopy shifts around is a recipe for one barrel not to fully engage the latch. My retrofit works great as long as I use it as you will see by my next sorry tale.
After my first experience with the canopy and about a years worth of flying with my retrofit latches, I decided to take my Father (and co-builder partner) flying. I sure everyone has heard of the "sterile cockpit", well I wish I practiced it on this day. My Dad bless his heart, was having all sorts of difficulty's with his seatbealt and then it was something with his headset. Well in terms of human factors the error chain was forming due to the distractions in trying to get my Pops' comfortable in his seat, I basically forgot to use my checklist and as a result I forgot to latch my canopy with my retrofit latches. Run-up was fine, we took the runway and probably 50 feet in the air all hell broke loose when the canopy opened in flight. This time my Zenith was at very close to gross on a 70 degree day and you know what, I scared the bejezzuuss out of myself and my poor Dad. We climbed (really slow), communicated and confessed and then we safely landed. My Father was able to hold the canopy down so I could fly the plane with little distraction, but no dice on getting the canopy to close. My poor Father was so unerved by the experience that he chose to call it a day, and rightly so, shame on me as a pilot and I called it a day as well. Embarressed you bet, pride hurt-you know it, feeling very unprofessional and juvenile.
First Rule- Always follow your checklist do not commit it to memory don't get comfortable with your aircraft. 2nd Rule- Sterile cockpit procedures when you have a passenger. 3rd Rule ALWAYS FLY THE PLANE!!! I would not wish these experiences upon my worst enemy. However, being the novice optimist and scientist/test pilot I do know one thing that my airplane is flyable with the canopy open, it might not be comfortable and its definitely un-nerving, but I know for a fact that my Zenith Zodiac CH601XL will fly as long as I choose to stay with the airplane an fly it no matter what occurs. I'm not enamoured with the canopy design in my iteration of the airplane, but it is what it is and I have a very healthy respect for it.
I'm in no way trying to scare anyone. Just be careful!!! careful!!! careful!!! I have 250 plus hours on my 601/Jabiru3300 aircraft, she is my pride and joy. The intimate knowledge and education of building one's airplane is nothing short of an incredible life experience that I would not trade or change. I am having the time of my life and the myriad of individuals that I have met in the experimental home building world are just class people for sure.
So don't give up before the miracle happens. Just learn from your mistakes stay humble and be open to change and always remember to fly the plane.
Sincerely,
Jeff Paris N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300
EAA Tech. Counselor Chapter 44 Rochester, NY
Also in process of building a Europa Classic Monowheel
--
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hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Howdy all;
Reading this Jeffs stories, I’m starting to think a “CANOPY UNLATCHED” safety light on the dash might be in order. Has anyone installed one on their plane?
Roger
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey J Paris
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:42 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Open canopy accident
Zenith listers,
This is a very interesting topic for me and I feel qualified to add to the conversation. I have had 2 inadverdant open canopy experiences with my CH601XL. Gratefully no one was injured and no metal was bent. The first opening occured on the second day of my 40 hour fligh testing. Day 1 was a great day and I was eager to fly my newly fledged bird the following day. At the time I was flying out of a local grass strip. As I was taking off I progressed a bit further down the field and hit a small bump that made the aircraft jump into the air and popping the canopy open at the same time. Let me say it wasn't anything like when the old flight instructors trick of a Cessna or Piper door opening in flight. THIS SUCKED! My vision was blocked by the canopy, the canopy could not be shut in flight, the propeller slipstream pressurized the canopy and there was a tremendous amount of drag, confusion, noise, wind and maps and stuff flying around the cockpit. The distraction of the experience was intense, however, I did my best to fly the airplane. Once "stabilized" I was able to climb albeit slowly and I was able to declare an emergency, a fellow pilot on the ground was able to talk to me and help me visually land the plane as I dealt with the canopy moving about. I landed, got my "sh.....t together", said a prayer of thanks, took a little time to check things out and I spent the rest of the day flying my aircraft without incident.
That experience got me thinking and once I got home I realized that I just wasn't that confident about the latching mechanisms designed by Zenith and installed by me. I did some soul searching and then some serious research and design and I bought some specialty latches from McMaster Carr that would give me some rock solid redundancy in terms of keeping my canopy latched. I guess trying to get both barrels to lock while the canopy shifts around is a recipe for one barrel not to fully engage the latch. My retrofit works great as long as I use it as you will see by my next sorry tale.
After my first experience with the canopy and about a years worth of flying with my retrofit latches, I decided to take my Father (and co-builder partner) flying. I sure everyone has heard of the "sterile cockpit", well I wish I practiced it on this day. My Dad bless his heart, was having all sorts of difficulty's with his seatbealt and then it was something with his headset. Well in terms of human factors the error chain was forming due to the distractions in trying to get my Pops' comfortable in his seat, I basically forgot to use my checklist and as a result I forgot to latch my canopy with my retrofit latches. Run-up was fine, we took the runway and probably 50 feet in the air all hell broke loose when the canopy opened in flight. This time my Zenith was at very close to gross on a 70 degree day and you know what, I scared the bejezzuuss out of myself and my poor Dad. We climbed (really slow), communicated and confessed and then we safely landed. My Father was able to hold the canopy down so I could fly the plane with little distraction, but no dice on getting the canopy to close. My poor Father was so unerved by the experience that he chose to call it a day, and rightly so, shame on me as a pilot and I called it a day as well. Embarressed you bet, pride hurt-you know it, feeling very unprofessional and juvenile.
First Rule- Always follow your checklist do not commit it to memory don't get comfortable with your aircraft. 2nd Rule- Sterile cockpit procedures when you have a passenger. 3rd Rule ALWAYS FLY THE PLANE!!! I would not wish these experiences upon my worst enemy. However, being the novice optimist and scientist/test pilot I do know one thing that my airplane is flyable with the canopy open, it might not be comfortable and its definitely un-nerving, but I know for a fact that my Zenith Zodiac CH601XL will fly as long as I choose to stay with the airplane an fly it no matter what occurs. I'm not enamoured with the canopy design in my iteration of the airplane, but it is what it is and I have a very healthy respect for it.
I'm in no way trying to scare anyone. Just be careful!!! careful!!! careful!!! I have 250 plus hours on my 601/Jabiru3300 aircraft, she is my pride and joy. The intimate knowledge and education of building one's airplane is nothing short of an incredible life experience that I would not trade or change. I am having the time of my life and the myriad of individuals that I have met in the experimental home building world are just class people for sure.
So don't give up before the miracle happens. Just learn from your mistakes stay humble and be open to change and always remember to fly the plane.
Sincerely,
Jeff Paris N196ZP CH601XL Jabiru 3300
EAA Tech. Counselor Chapter 44 Rochester, NY
Also in process of building a Europa Classic Monowheel
--
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Open canopy accident |
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If you happen to be using a Dynon EMS (and probably some of the others as well) there are a couple of extra ports that can be used for just that. I probably will add that feature at some point.
| hills(at)sunflower.com wrote: | Howdy all;
Reading this Jeffs stories, I’m starting to think a “CANOPY UNLATCHED” safety light on the dash might be in order. Has anyone installed one on their plane?
Roger
|
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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tshankland(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Roger,
When I built the frame of my canopy I installed two micro switches with plunger that extend out the bottom. Those go to an alarm panel I have. The panel uses bi color LEDs (red, green). I have two for my fuel valve position, two for the canopy two for the cowling one for alternator and one for engine water level.
Tim Shankland
Roger & Lina Hill wrote: [quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]-->
Howdy all;
Reading this Jeffs stories, I’m starting to think a “CANOPY UNLATCHED” safety light on the dash might be in order. Has anyone installed one on their plane?
Roger
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jeffrey J Paris
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:42 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Open canopy accident
--
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Roger
If you are really serious about this, you should check out Al Wick's glass panel group,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GlassPanel/
He does some interesting things with his approach which utililizes a Programmable Logic Controller. With a PLC you can have audible warnings, which may have significant advantages during stressful parts of a flight. In essence his glass panel would replace an EIS but add as many other alarms as you'd like to wire into your system. E.g., right now one member of the group is looking for folks who'd be interested in buying into a small production run of a radar ground detector (for maybe, $300).
Terry
At 07:43 PM 1/14/2009 -0500, you wrote:
[quote]Roger,
When I built the frame of my canopy I installed two micro switches with plunger that extend out the bottom. Those go to an alarm panel I have. The panel uses bi color LEDs (red, green). I have two for my fuel valve position, two for the canopy two for the cowling one for alternator and one for engine water level.
Tim Shankland
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
| Quote: |
Howdy all;
Reading this Jeffs stories, Im starting to think a CANOPY UNLATCHED safety light on the dash might be in order. Has anyone installed one on their plane?
Roger |
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Open canopy accident |
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Terry;
Yes I program PLCs too, that’s not a bad idea, but most run on 24VDC or more, so my 12v system would need an additional DC-DC converter (it’s not cheap either).
I like Tim’s idea about the bi-colored LED, that way you know that the lamp is not burned out or something.
I put a secondary slide lock on my 601, it has a side opening canopy and has popped open a few times on the ground, so I added the locks just to be sure, but I’m thinking about a XL stile on my next plane.
Roger
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:27 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Open canopy accident
Roger
If you are really serious about this, you should check out Al Wick's glass panel group,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GlassPanel/
He does some interesting things with his approach which utililizes a Programmable Logic Controller. With a PLC you can have audible warnings, which may have significant advantages during stressful parts of a flight. In essence his glass panel would replace an EIS but add as many other alarms as you'd like to wire into your system. E.g., right now one member of the group is looking for folks who'd be interested in buying into a small production run of a radar ground detector (for maybe, $300).
Terry
At 07:43 PM 1/14/2009 -0500, you wrote:
Roger,
When I built the frame of my canopy I installed two micro switches with plunger that extend out the bottom. Those go to an alarm panel I have. The panel uses bi color LEDs (red, green). I have two for my fuel valve position, two for the canopy two for the cowling one for alternator and one for engine water level.
Tim Shankland
Roger & Lina Hill wrote:
Howdy all;
Reading this Jeffs stories, Im starting to think a CANOPY UNLATCHED safety light on the dash might be in order. Has anyone installed one on their plane?
Roger
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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