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cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Have any of you ever seen anything similar to what I have attached here in the photos?

I am getting some fretting corrosion where the fabric is tight against the aluminum tubes on the cockpit cage.

I've received two suggestions...one to put some thin adhesive-backed weatherstripping between the tubes and fabric...another to use some clear duct tape on the tube to keep the fabric from rubbing it. 

Keep in mind the fabric is really tight and I don't think I'll be able to easily get much of anything between the tubes and the fabric.



When you build these planes is there any instruction to put anything between the tubes and fabric?

2008-12-20 cage tubing next to fabric.JPG

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2008-12-20 black oily substance leaking through fabric.JPG

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_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Hi Cristal,



It could be that the tubes themselves are moving and have come loose at their attach points. A careful inspection will need to done to find out if this is the case.



You might be able to re-glue the fabric  to the tubes once you know what finishing system was used to cover the plane. You may have to partially remove the finish in a band along the tubes, re-glue the fabric to the tubes, add reinforcing tape and rib stitch the fabric to the tubes where the fabric is rubbing. Then reapply the needed coatings and repaint the color back on in the repair areas.



Otherwise you may have to recover the whole fuselage and rib stitch the fabric to the tubes to keep it from chaffing/rubbing.



No easy answers here unfortunately.



Best Regards



Carlos G.

AKA

BaronVonEvil

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

the fact that you know what fretting corrosion is impresses me.  Are  

you sure it is only a

metallic substance and not oil?  I would go with the packing tape  

suggestion if you can

get it in there, otherwise maybe one of those skinny venetian blind  

slats?

BB



On 15, Jan 2009, at 10:50 PM, cristalclear13 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com>



 Have any of you ever seen anything similar to what I have attached  

 here in the photos?

 I am getting some fretting corrosion where the fabric is tight  

 against the aluminum tubes on the cockpit cage.

 I've received two suggestions...one to put some thin adhesive- 

 backed weatherstripping between the tubes and fabric...another to  

 use some clear duct tape on the tube to keep the fabric from  

 rubbing it.

 Keep in mind the fabric is really tight and I don't think I'll be  

 able to easily get much of anything between the tubes and the fabric.



 When you build these planes is there any instruction to put  

 anything between the tubes and fabric?



 --------

 Cristal Waters

 Kolb Mark II Twinstar

 Rotax 503 DCSI





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 25022#225022





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/ 

 2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric_581.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/ 

 2008_12_20_cage_tubing_next_to_fabric2_840.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/ 

 2008_12_20_black_oily_substance_leaking_through_fabric_923.jpg

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:21 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

I agree with Bob,  Looks like oil...



One way to get the tape in place... Do like Bob said... Get a piece of

venetion blind...  put the tape on it slightly ...use it to get between the tube and fabric and pull the tape in place...



  Usually chaffing tapes are put on places before fabric is attached...



 But where your showing....Wouldn't get chaffing tape...



                           Gotta Fly...

.

.

.

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Where in the cockpit cage does Kolb use aluminum?

 

   

 

   

 

 --

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

 	  Quote: 	
		   Have any of you ever seen anything similar to what I have attached  

 here in the photos?

 I am getting some fretting corrosion where the fabric is tight  

 against the aluminum tubes on the cockpit cage.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


	


Has the rubbing of the fabric rubbed off the primer paint on the tube?



Boyd Young

MkIIIC

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Boyd, It doesn't appear that any paint (or primer) was applied to these tubes...I didn't build this plane...bought it used.



Mike (planecrazzzy), If the chafing tape doesn't go here, where would it go?



Mike and Bob, If the fabric is rubbing with the tube it can cause bits of aluminum to come loose and oxidize and cause more abrasion.  When the aluminum oxide mixes with EITHER water or oil it makes an oily-looking substance.  I mix my gas and oil so it's not like I have an oil leak and especially not there.  The condensation inside the cage or perhaps even from the inside of the steel tubing coming out where it runs into the aluminum tubing could add water to the mix.

Bob, don't be impressed...I just listened closely in Mike Huffman's repairman class.



Carlos, I will check for looseness.  Is that what most people do...glue the fabric to the tubes?  I will check tomorrow (if I can brave the cold South Georgia weather).  Mine may have been glued originally and maybe the glue has deteriorated.



zeprep251(at)aol.com (name?), 12.584% of my cage is AL.  (see attachment)

12.584%.bmp

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_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Hi Cristal,



The way the fabric is attached to the fuselage depends upon the designer/ manufacturer of the aircraft and the fabric makers finishing system.



For Polyfiber the fabric is usually glued to the primary edges of the fuselage and shrunk down to a final tension. Then comes the sealer(Polybrush) that penetrates the fabric and will stick to tubes that the fabric is bearing against.  If the fabric is in the propblast, depending upon the designer/manufacturer, the fabric maybe reinforced with a ribbon type tape, then stitches are used to mechanically attach the fabric to the tubes, and a extra layer of fabric tape is placed over the stitches and more Polybrush is applied to seal everything up. This is just a brief explanation and the fabric supplier's books, the A/C manufacturer manuals should be followed to assure a correct installation any covering. Also Advisory Circular 43-13 ( actually a book) is a good reference for fabric installation and many types of aircraft structural repairs too.



If the aluminum tubes are secure,  then I would suspect that the fabric installation wasn't done properly. I would suggest that you ask someone at your airport who has done fabric work or an A & P Mechanic to inspect the fabric of your plane to see what your specific problems are.



If you were nearby, I would be more that happy to help you out but Georgia is a wee-bit far from Washington state.



Doing a fabric job isn't hard and can be somewhat fun. I use the PolyFiber process myself.  It just takes a little patience and careful work to do a good covering job.



I am always looking at fabric covered aircraft to see how it has been done. I like to study how little problem areas (around windows, edges, fittings sticking out, etc.) are executed to learn from others possible solutions and mistakes too.



Let us know what you find.



Best Regards

Carlos G.



P.S. It's about 20 degrees here...

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:52 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

The way the fabric is attached to the fuselage depends upon the designer/ 

manufacturer of the aircraft and the fabric makers finishing system.>>



Hi,

there is talk here in the UK of precoloured fabric/plastic aircraft 

covering.



That would be pretty neat. Shrink it on in the usual way with no spray 

problems etc. to follow.



Cheers



Pat

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

cristal  it would be a good idea for you to buy a  Stits Poly fiber manual it would save you a bunch of questions about Fabric,  Finishing Tapes,  anti Chafe tapes, Paint,Poly Brush,poly Spray and How  to use all of this  and You would learn how to keep your Kolb in super  shape with first hand knowledge

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 1/16/2009 10:26:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "cristalclear13"    <cristalclearwaters(at)gmail.com>



Boyd, It doesn't appear that any    paint (or primer) was applied to these tubes...I didn't build this    plane...bought it used.



Mike (planecrazzzy), If the chafing tape    doesn't go here, where would it go?



Mike and Bob, If the fabric is    rubbing with the tube it can cause bits of aluminum to come loose and oxidize    and cause more abrasion.  When the aluminum oxide mixes with EITHER water    or oil it makes an oily-looking substance.  I mix my gas and oil so it's    not like I have an oil leak and especially not there.  The condensation    inside the cage or perhaps even from the inside of the steel tubing coming out    where it runs into the aluminum tubing could add water to the mix.

Bob,    don't be impressed...I just listened closely in Mike Huffman's repairman    class.



Carlos, I will check for looseness.  Is that what most    people do...glue the fabric to the tubes?  I will check tomorrow (if I    can brave the cold South Georgia weather).  Mine may have been glued    originally and maybe the glue has deteriorated.



zeprep251(at)aol.com    (name?), 12.584% of my cage is AL.  (see attachment)

[Wink]    [Wink]



--------

Cristal Waters

Kolb Mark II Twinstar

Rotax 503    DCSI





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225219#225219





Attachments:    



http://forums.matronics.com//files/12584percent_119.bmp





	




A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!

  [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

At 06:51 AM 1/17/2009, pj.ladd wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  there is talk here in the UK of precoloured fabric/plastic aircraft covering.



 That would be pretty neat. Shrink it on in the usual way with no spray problems etc. to follow. 	


 I saw something like that not long ago, but I can't find the link.



 R/C'ers, of course, have had that for years in "Coverite", a precolored dacron fabric with heat sensitive adhesive on one side... you simply iron it on; the heat activates the adhesive and shrinks the fabric in one easy step.  There's also "Monokote" (or the UK equivalent "Solarfilm"), a similar product except it's mylar film (to easy to rip for a man carrying aircraft!).  Anyway, I'm pretty sure I saw something like this for full sized aircraft, but where I don't know.



 -Dana

 --

  The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and 

 delicious. And why shouldn't it be? -- it is the same the angels 

 breathe.

 

 - Mark Twain    [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

If you can manage to clean off the discoloration with a brush and  

detergent then you should be able

to prevent further fretting with a strip of hardware store GOOP  

cement in the problem area.

BB



On 17, Jan 2009, at 6:51 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The way the fabric is attached to the fuselage depends upon the  

 designer/ manufacturer of the aircraft and the fabric makers  

 finishing system.>>



 Hi,

 there is talk here in the UK of precoloured fabric/plastic aircraft  

 covering.



 That would be pretty neat. Shrink it on in the usual way with no  

 spray problems etc. to follow.



 Cheers



 Pat

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Years ago there was a couple of guys who flew to the Arctic circle

Their planes had the plastic film like Monokote.... They had to do some repairs up there.... needed to get into the Hanger... Very TALL doors on the hanger... it said just to open the doors cost them $750 bucks...

I wonder if it cost that much to let them back out...?

 You'd think they'll have a small hanger door on the side... Sheeees



                       Gotta Fly...

.

.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

there is talk here in the UK of precoloured fabric/plastic aircraft covering.



 That would be pretty neat. Shrink it on in the usual way with no spray problems etc. to follow.

 I saw something like that not long ago, but I can't find the link.



 R/C'ers, of course, have had that for years in "Coverite", a precolored dacron fabric with heat sensitive adhesive on one side... you simply iron it on; the heat activates the adhesive and shrinks the fabric in one easy step.  There's also "Monokote" (or the UK equivalent "Solarfilm"), a similar product except it's mylar film (to easy to rip for a man carrying aircraft!).  Anyway, I'm pretty sure I saw something like this for full sized aircraft, but where I don't know.



 -Dana

 --

  The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and 

 delicious. And why shouldn't it be? -- it is the same the angels 

 breathe.

 

 - Mark Twain

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Hey Bob... I'd bet Bathroom silocone would do the job...

 Gotta Fly...

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  If you can manage to clean off the discoloration with a brush and  

detergent then you should be able

to prevent further fretting with a strip of hardware store GOOP  

cement in the problem area.

BB



On 17, Jan 2009, at 6:51 AM, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The way the fabric is attached to the fuselage depends upon the  

 designer/ manufacturer of the aircraft and the fabric makers  

 finishing system.>>



 Hi,

 there is talk here in the UK of precoloured fabric/plastic aircraft  

 covering.



 That would be pretty neat. Shrink it on in the usual way with no  

 spray problems etc. to follow.



 Cheers



 Pat

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Cristal,



May be I missed it.  It seems that if fabric tension was high enough, it 

could/would not fret.  Can you push the fabric away from the tube?  If so, I 

would try heating the fabric and try to shrink and increase fabric tension.  

It is easy to see if it is working by thunking the fabric and listening for 

a higher pitched response.  It may be worth a try.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Hi Cristal,



Just a little follow up. Were you able to determine the cause of your fabric rubbing problem?



Did you find a solution to the problem and what was it ?



Us busy-bodies would like to know  



Best Regards,



Carlos G.

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

 	  The BaronVonEvil wrote: 	
		  Hi Cristal,



Just a little follow up. Were you able to determine the cause of your fabric rubbing problem?



Did you find a solution to the problem and what was it ?



Us busy-bodies would like to know  



Best Regards,



Carlos G. 	




Hi Carlos, Thanks for caring.  I don't think any tubes are loose.  I think perhaps the fabric was glued to the tube so I probably won't be able to get anything between the fabric and tube to keep it from rubbing.  Maybe I should add more glue...or maybe I should tear the old off and recover it (ugh).  I'm kind of lost on this one.  I thought about attending the fabric covering workshop SportAir is hosting in Florida next month.

Lately it's been too cold to get out there and work on it.  (I've really become quite the cold wimp since I've lived down in warm south Georgia for several years now.)

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: Re: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

Crystal,



I would try to reattach the fabric to the tube using Polytak, that is the glue that the polyfiber system specifies to hold fabric to a tube.  No need to take the fabric off the tube to do this, just brush it in there.  According to the manual, you can also add reinforcing tape to the outside of the fabric where it goes over the tube, that way you would have double fabric there where it started to rub through.  If you plane was painted with polytone it will be a very easy job to add the reinforcing tape to the outside of your fuselage.   If your plane was painted with Aerothane over the polyfiber coatings ( If its real shiny and hard like a car its aerothane, polytone is not brittle, and not a real glossy finish, you can almost see the fabric  weave through it ), it will be much harder as you would have to chip the aerothane off before adding the reinforcing tape.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm kind of lost on this one.>> Cristal Waters

 Kolb Mark II Twinstar

 Rotax 503 DCSI


	


  Ms Cristal,

 

  Why not do a couple of easy fixes, if you are concerned about the tube abrading the fabric.

 

 

1)  I ran a 3" wide reinforcement tape on the inside of the fuselage, encompassing the tube.  First, secure one edge of the tape, along the top of the tube's entire length.  Then, secure the tape on the opposite side, getting it a little bit snug. Once the Poly Tak has dried thoroughly, use your iron to tighten the centerline portion of the tape.  It draws up against the tube very tightly.  Then, a coat of Poly Brush.

 

  Or, for a more secure reinforcement:

 

2)  Another method would be to run a length of rib reinforcement tape on the outside of the tube, adhering it with Poly Tak.  Wrap some rib stitch tape along the tube.  Cover the outside rib rein. tape with a 2" wide piece of Poly Fiber.  Paint the outside 2" Poly Fiber tape.

 

  Seems to me either method keeps the fabric from moving again, although, the rib stitching method

is likely the most secure, plus the 2" wide Poly Fiber would strengthen the existing fabric that's touching the tube now.

 

Best regards,

Mike Welch

_________________________________________________________________

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: fabric rubbing on cage tubes

>>I'm kind of lost on this one.>> Cristal Waters

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Kolb Mark II Twinstar

> Rotax 503 DCSI


	




Cristal:



Very difficult to diagnosis your problem and come up with a good solution 

from hauck's holler.  However, if there is movement between the fabric and 

the aluminum fairing tube, you are going to have a black residue.  Only way 

to kill that is stop the movement between the tube and the fabric.



If I had that problem on my airplane, here's what I would do, whether it is 

finished in Polytone or Aerothane.



Get some Polyfiber Paint Cleaning Solvent and clean the area over the tube, 

about an 1.5" on each side.



Every 5 or 6" (or whatever you think will take care of securing the fabric), 

drill an 1/8" hole on the apex of the tube for large flange aluminum fabric 

rivets.



Stick a piece of reinforcing tape, 1/2" self adhesive over the length of the 

tube.



Pop the fabric rivets.



You could probably get away with 2" finishing tape, or whatever width is 

required to do the job.  Brush on a 2.5 to 3" band of Polybrush, depending 

on what width tape used, the length of the reinforcing tape plus about 5 or 

6" beyond each end.  Use at least two coats.



Get some 2" pinked edge trim tape and apply with polybrush.  You might want 

to make the ends of the trim tape tapered to a point, cut at an angle all 

the way across with one cut, or you may want to round them.  Whatever looks 

best.



After the tape and polybrush dries real good, mask off about 2 or 3" on each 

side of the fabric tube, again depending on what width of tape you decide to 

go with.  Get the gun and spray it.  Would not worry about Polyspray (UV 

protection) on this job.



If your airplane is finished in Polytone, you are in business, good to go 

without a lot of prep.



If your airplane is finished in Aerothane, like my old MKIII, then you 

probably should scuff up the area that will be repaired and painted, with a 

little bit of sand paper or a scotch brite pad.  From photos of your 

airplane, it is probably finished in Polytone, if they used the Stitts or 

Polyfiber system.  Could be finished with Randolph Dope or some other 

covering and finishing process.



I don't recommend rib stitching to round tubes, although my fuselage fabric 

on the rear half is rib stitched and has held up quite well.  The reason I 

did not use fabric rivets for that job was all my fabric tubes are 4130 

chromoly steel.  I did not want to drill a bunch of holes in these tubes. 

Would have been much easier had I used fabric rivets.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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