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RV9- Light Sport

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pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

Saw an RV-9A being promoted as a Light Sport at the Sebring Light Sport Expo.  The plane had a Lyc. 0-235.  The numbers don't seem to add up to qualifying as an LSA.  Anybody seen this?  Doesn't seem to leave much room for payload.



Bill Pagan  EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

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z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

On Saturday 24 January 2009 17:35, Bill Pagan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Saw an RV-9A being promoted as a Light Sport at the Sebring Light Sport

 Expo.  The plane had a Lyc. 0-235.  The numbers don't seem to add up to

 qualifying as an LSA.  Anybody seen this?  Doesn't seem to leave much room

 for payload.


	


RV had a display across from Zenith (at) S&F last year, and made me this same 

pitch, probably because I stated I was interestewd in the Zenith as an LSA. 

It struck me the same way. I think trying to make an LSA out of an RV9A is a 

bit of a stretch.



Of course, one wouldn't need to worry too much about overstressing the 

aircraft, if one were somewhat over the 1320 lb limit. It might tax that 

O-235 a bit, though.

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

Van's lists, for the RV9A, with 115 HP, at gross, cruise 55%, 8.000 ft, 148 mph; stall speed 48 mph. I really don't see how an RV9A could ever qualify as an LSA.

 

 I also question the "E" in E-LSA. (ie. the RV12)  To qualify, one must be built EXACTLY like a production model of the same airplane.  That completely rules out experimentation. Isn't that what the "E" stands for ?

 

 Jay Bannister

  

     

  

     

  

  --

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

When I looked at Van's web site, I was confused by how they are trying to package the RV-12.  My impression was that it will be/is available as an EAB and they are in the process of getting an E-SLA certification.  I'm not sure how that works when you don't have an S-LSA, but apparently you can specify a virtual S-LSA that the E-LSA can be spec'ed from?

Ron



On Jan 24, 2009, at 8:18 PM, Jaybannist(at)cs.com (Jaybannist(at)cs.com) wrote:

[quote] Van's lists, for the RV9A, with 115 HP, at gross, cruise 55%, 8.000 ft, 148 mph; stall speed 48 mph. I really don't see how an RV9A could ever qualify as an LSA.

 

 I also question the "E" in E-LSA. (ie. the RV12)  To qualify, one must be built EXACTLY like a production model of the same airplane.  That completely rules out experimentation. Isn't that what the "E" stands for ?

 

 Jay Bannister

  

  

 

  

 

 --

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

I agree Jay. I had plans for that plane. At the time they said there was no way to make the weight bogey for LSA. Plans gone. Sure would have made a terrific low and slow plane though... It would certainly fly and fly well with even an A-65 pitched for climb. Today's crowd just doesn't understand that planes do not have to suck fuel and go fast...



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Sat, 1/24/09, jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com> wrote:

[quote]From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>

Subject: Re: RV9- Light Sport

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 8:18 PM



   Van's lists, for the RV9A, with 115 HP, at gross, cruise 55%, 8.000 ft, 148 mph; stall speed 48 mph. I really don't see how an RV9A could ever qualify as an LSA.

 

 I also question the "E" in E-LSA. (ie. the RV12)  To qualify, one must be built EXACTLY like a production model of the same airplane.  That completely rules out experimentation. Isn't that what the "E" stands for ?

 

 Jay Bannister

  

     

  

     

  

  --

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: RV9- Light Sport

They really should have called the E-LSA aircraft A-LSA for Amateur-built LSA but the FAA didn't ask me.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

They are probably going to use one aircraft to get the LSA  

certification. Then that first example will be the S-LSA and the E-LSA  

kits will built to that pattern.



On Jan 24, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   When I looked at Van's web site, I was confused by how they are  

 trying to package the RV-12.  My impression was that it will be/is  

 available as an EAB and they are in the process of getting an E-SLA  

 certification.  I'm not sure how that works when you don't have an S- 

 LSA, but apparently you can specify a virtual S-LSA that the E-LSA  

 can be spec'ed from?



>


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

No, the Experimental category is just a catch-all for any airplane  

that doesn't meet the requirements for either a Standard or Special  

certificate.



On Jan 24, 2009, at 8:18 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Van's lists, for the RV9A, with 115 HP, at gross, cruise 55%, 8.000  

 ft, 148 mph; stall speed 48 mph. I really don't see how an RV9A  

 could ever qualify as an LSA.



 I also question the "E" in E-LSA. (ie. the RV12)  To qualify, one  

 must be built EXACTLY like a production model of the same airplane.   

 That completely rules out experimentation. Isn't that what the "E"  

 stands for ?




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

Experimental is just the category the FAA assigns to any aircraft that  

doesn't fall under any of the other categories of aircraft  

certification.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 >



 They really should have called the E-LSA aircraft A-LSA for Amateur- 

 built LSA but the FAA didn't ask me.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

Bryan,

 

 Not to be argumentative, but the FAA and I disagree.  E-LSA is an acronym for "Experimental Light Sport Aircraft." (look it up)   

 

 LSA or Light Sport Aricraft is a category that meets the LSA consensus standards, whether factory built or amateur built.  To qualify as E-LSA, it must be built exactly like the production version LSA; no variance or Experimetation is allowed. Only the FAA would come up with a "Experimental" where no Experimenting is allowed. An "outsider" would probably have called it AB-LSA.

 

 E-AB is any amateur built experimental.  My 601XL is registered E-AB, but it qualifies as an LSA. It can be flown by a Private Pilot as an experimental airplane, or by a Light Sport Pilot as an LSA.  It can not qualify as E-LSA.

 

 Jay Bannister

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

I need to correct my earlier post. I should have stated that the  

Experimental category is a catch-all for any airplane that doesn't  

meet the requirements of any other category. Standard and Special are  

not categories of certification, they are types.



The S-LSA and the E-LSA both fall under the same TYPE of airworthiness  

certificate (Special) but they do not fall under the same CATEGORY of  

airworthiness certificate. The S-LSA falls under its own category, the  

Light Sport Aircraft category [21.190]. The E-LSA falls under a subset  

the Experimental category, Operating light-sport aircraft [21.191(i)].  

Technically the E-LSA should be called the S-E-LSA but E-LSA is good  

enough to get the point across. An amateur built aircraft also falls  

under a subset of the Experimental category, Operating amateur built  

aircraft [21.191(g)].



The fact is that E-LSA does not just apply to LSA kits built to a  

conforming S-LSA by an amateur builder, it also includes former "fat  

ultralights" that may have been factory built or amateur built and it  

includes factory built S-LSA aircraft that have since been converted  

to E-LSA. So AB-LSA wouldn't fit very well either. That's probably why  

they put it under the catch-all Experimental category.



It is also my understanding that once the test time is flown off, an E- 

LSA built from a conforming kit pretty much falls under the same rules  

as an E-AB as far as maintenance, repair and modifications are  

concerned.

On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:15 AM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bryan,



 Not to be argumentative, but the FAA and I disagree.  E-LSA is an  

 acronym for "Experimental Light Sport Aircraft." (look it up)



 LSA or Light Sport Aricraft is a category that meets the LSA  

 consensus standards, whether factory built or amateur built.  To  

 qualify as E-LSA, it must be built exactly like the production  

 version LSA; no variance or Experimetation is allowed. Only the FAA  

 would come up with a "Experimental" where no Experimenting is  

 allowed. An "outsider" would probably have called it AB-LSA.



 E-AB is any amateur built experimental.  My 601XL is registered E- 

 AB, but it qualifies as an LSA. It can be flown by a Private Pilot  

 as an experimental airplane, or by a Light Sport Pilot as an LSA.   

 It can not qualify as E-LSA.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

Bryan,

 

 I just know the FAA has a secret group who's mission is confusion and obfuscation.  They sit around a big conference table and have wild brainstorming sessions.  The most outrageous suggestions are incorporated into the regs. "Boy, this one will REALLY throw them!"  I'm sure that is how they came up with the ubiquitous and required "No one shall do so and so, unless...."  Oh well, it keeps them busy, employed and amused.

 

 Jay Bannister

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: RV9- Light Sport

On the list of the three greatest lies in history: "I'm from the  

government, I'm here to help you."



On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:26 AM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bryan,



 I just know the FAA has a secret group who's mission is confusion  

 and obfuscation.  They sit around a big conference table and have  

 wild brainstorming sessions.  The most outrageous suggestions are  

 incorporated into the regs. "Boy, this one will REALLY throw them!"   

 I'm sure that is how they came up with the ubiquitous and required  

 "No one shall do so and so, unless...."  Oh well, it keeps them  

 busy, employed and amused.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

sdthatcher

Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Port Saint Lucie

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: RV9- Light Sport

When I got my 601XL registered as an E-LSA, it seemed very clear as to the advantages at that time. It appeared that there was a loophole in the Fat Ultralight ruling that allowed me to register the 601XL as an E-LSA with an auto-converted Corvair engine and still get only a 5 hour fly-off for Phase I.  That was compared to the 40 hour fly-off for the E-AB.  Also, there really wasn't an S-LSA at the time with a Corvair engine... and still isn't.  But there were examples of flying 601XL's with Corvair engines and these were posted on Zenith's website.  That satisfied the conditions of the E-LSA rule for fat ultralights.



Even though I built the plane, I had to take the LSA Repairman Course (16 hour) in order to perform the condition inspection, or I would need to get an A&P or higher to perform the condition inspection.  My understanding was that anyone (including a child if I felt comfortable allowing it), could do repairs to the aircraft.



The big advantage for going this route was that upon selling the aircraft, the new owner could also obtain the LSA repairman certificate and could then perform the condition inspection themselves.  Since the sale of the E-AB aircraft would either require the original owner to perform the inspection or an IA or A&P, this seemed to be a big advantage.



And last, during the taking of the Repairman Course, I was told by the instructors that any modifications to the aircraft that affected the W&B would require another Phase I test flight and appropriate notations in the log book.  We discussed this at length since I hadn't gotten the wheel pants on yet and this type of addition would, by the rules, require another Phase I test.  I think the instructor said that even a 1/2 lb addition to the Weight of the aircraft meant that Phase I needed to be started over.  As to whether I needed to contact FSDO and advise them of this I will need to review but I think I only needed to make a log entry similar to the first that resulted in moving to Phase II.



If anyone has updated info on this, let me know.

 	  bryanmmartin wrote: 	
		  I need to correct my earlier post. I should have stated that the  

Experimental category is a catch-all for any airplane that doesn't  

meet the requirements of any other category. Standard and Special are  

not categories of certification, they are types.



The S-LSA and the E-LSA both fall under the same TYPE of airworthiness  

certificate (Special) but they do not fall under the same CATEGORY of  

airworthiness certificate. The S-LSA falls under its own category, the  

Light Sport Aircraft category [21.190]. The E-LSA falls under a subset  

the Experimental category, Operating light-sport aircraft [21.191(i)].  

Technically the E-LSA should be called the S-E-LSA but E-LSA is good  

enough to get the point across. An amateur built aircraft also falls  

under a subset of the Experimental category, Operating amateur built  

aircraft [21.191(g)].



The fact is that E-LSA does not just apply to LSA kits built to a  

conforming S-LSA by an amateur builder, it also includes former "fat  

ultralights" that may have been factory built or amateur built and it  

includes factory built S-LSA aircraft that have since been converted  

to E-LSA. So AB-LSA wouldn't fit very well either. That's probably why  

they put it under the catch-all Experimental category.



It is also my understanding that once the test time is flown off, an E- 

LSA built from a conforming kit pretty much falls under the same rules  

as an E-AB as far as maintenance, repair and modifications are  

concerned.

On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:15 AM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bryan,



 Not to be argumentative, but the FAA and I disagree.  E-LSA is an  

 acronym for "Experimental Light Sport Aircraft." (look it up)



 LSA or Light Sport Aricraft is a category that meets the LSA  

 consensus standards, whether factory built or amateur built.  To  

 qualify as E-LSA, it must be built exactly like the production  

 version LSA; no variance or Experimetation is allowed. Only the FAA  

 would come up with a "Experimental" where no Experimenting is  

 allowed. An "outsider" would probably have called it AB-LSA.



 E-AB is any amateur built experimental.  My 601XL is registered E- 

 AB, but it qualifies as an LSA. It can be flown by a Private Pilot  

 as an experimental airplane, or by a Light Sport Pilot as an LSA.   

 It can not qualify as E-LSA.

	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
Scott Thatcher, Port Saint Lucie, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 140 hours and not flying currently.

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