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AVN100(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not "Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you) quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
[quote][b]
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wampam
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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I believe in free speech. I just don,t agee with you. Also my right.
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:02 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not "Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you) quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. 0123456789
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Thank you for your cooperation [quote][b]
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pequeajim
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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I am so tired of the "House trolls" approach to conversation in some of the forums, I usually ignore them but I will voice my thoughts anyway.
I strongly considered the SportCruiser almost two years ago when I was shopping for an airplane, (I have a PPL, so LSA was not a factor). As you say, I did like the spacous cabin but I steered away from the company because of obvious practices that "did not smell right". My money, my decision. I was so close to writing the check, thank God I did not!
When I bought a Lightning, I bought into the company and the build center as well. Arion and Green Landings have had a couple of opportunities to prove my faith in them was justified, and HAVE COME THROUGH EACH TIME! I am not a Arion ra ra guy and have not always agreed with EVERYTHING they have done, however, I DO like 99% of their direction. It's their business model, not mine. I really like all the people at Arion, trust them, and while my enthusiasm some times might be mistaken for promoting the company, I am my own man with my own opinions; I just get excited about things some times.
I will say this... They have NEVER let me down. I judge people by their actions and integrety, and that is pretty much it; no ra ra... Being on the Lightning list, I do not expect to talk about SportCruisers. An occasional post about another aircraft that uses the same engine or parts is IMHO acceptable, but take the "company going down in flames" talk elsewhere; I'm not interested. If I want to talk SC, I'll post on the three SC lists that I am a member of.
I'm sorry if I am being a bit harsh here, but I am really tired of your made for TV "House" type of comments. Post like this and you get no respect, and only take up good email space.
Kindly
Jim Langley
N730AL
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, <AVN100(at)aol.com (AVN100(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not "Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you) quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
| Quote: |
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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wampam
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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Nicely said Jim. Let’s just end it here.
Walt Mefford
N881WP
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:40 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
I am so tired of the "House trolls" approach to conversation in some of the forums, I usually ignore them but I will voice my thoughts anyway.
I strongly considered the SportCruiser almost two years ago when I was shopping for an airplane, (I have a PPL, so LSA was not a factor). As you say, I did like the spacous cabin but I steered away from the company because of obvious practices that "did not smell right". My money, my decision. I was so close to writing the check, thank God I did not!
When I bought a Lightning, I bought into the company and the build center as well. Arion and Green Landings have had a couple of opportunities to prove my faith in them was justified, and HAVE COME THROUGH EACH TIME! I am not a Arion ra ra guy and have not always agreed with EVERYTHING they have done, however, I DO like 99% of their direction. It's their business model, not mine. I really like all the people at Arion, trust them, and while my enthusiasm some times might be mistaken for promoting the company, I am my own man with my own opinions; I just get excited about things some times.
I will say this... They have NEVER let me down. I judge people by their actions and integrety, and that is pretty much it; no ra ra... Being on the Lightning list, I do not expect to talk about SportCruisers. An occasional post about another aircraft that uses the same engine or parts is IMHO acceptable, but take the "company going down in flames" talk elsewhere; I'm not interested. If I want to talk SC, I'll post on the three SC lists that I am a member of.
I'm sorry if I am being a bit harsh here, but I am really tired of your made for TV "House" type of comments. Post like this and you get no respect, and only take up good email space.
Kindly
Jim Langley
N730AL
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, <AVN100(at)aol.com (AVN100(at)aol.com)> wrote:
OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not "Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you) quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
| Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-Listttp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
0123456789 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
0 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
1 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
2 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
3 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
4 | Quote: | | " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
5
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Thank you for your cooperation [quote][b]
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fly.lightning(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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You have nothing but poor excuses for hiding in anonymity. You "urge"
without standing behind what you say. Some of what you claim with
authority is wrong. You excoriate without basis.
You could ask questions without acting like you know the answers.
Come to think of it, you mostly don't ask questions, you just make
derogatory self-important comments. You could be civil instead of
insulting and inflammatory, yet you choose otherwise.
I wouldn't want you as a friend.
So is your "employing agency" Farmingdale State University?
By the way, this jerk has offended people on other lists before. I
found a long post of over-the-top criticism and insulting commentary
by this author on another Yahoo list, which culminated in a call to
remove him from the list.
Hugh Sontag
| Quote: | The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and
ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while
avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate
personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do
not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of
potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
|
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Larzfromarz
Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 11
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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Wow. When I left this morning my email was clear, when I get back home tonight I discover there was a veritable exchange of broadsides between a likely troll and the home team!!!
My thought is just that there are two kinds of people out there. Those who understand the rules of the Light Sport game and those who do not but presume otherwise.
After spending the last three years at airshows trying to explain Light Sport regs to the unwitting, I commend the Arion team for its clarity and enthusiasm. It is like a form of torture to be "told" what the regs say..when they dont; or to be asked the most basic questions about Light Sport......repeatedly.
My short answer is that Pete, Nick and company live and breathe Light Sport. They DO know the regs and what they really mean. They DO sit on the committees for all phases of Light Sport. Their very livelihood depend on accurate, truthful and thoughtful actions concerning the Light Sport arena. They have the most skin in the game.
A verbal broadside challenging their grasp and execution in the Light Sport arena is to be compared to a fart in a whirlwind or perhaps an flea urinating on the leg of an elephant.
As Buz might say, "your mileage may vary"
doug koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/4/2009 4:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fly.lightning(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Lightning-List message posted by: Hugh Sontag <fly.lightning(at)gmail.com>
You have nothing but poor excuses for hiding in anonymity. You "urge"
without standing behind what you say. Some of what you claim with
authority is wrong. You excoriate without basis.
You could ask questions without acting like you know the answers.
Come to think of it, you mostly don't ask questions, you just make
derogatory self-important comments. You could be civil instead of
insulting and inflammatory, yet you choose otherwise.
I wouldn't want you as a friend.
|
[quote][b]
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wb2ssj(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
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Very well said: Thank You Tex
[quote] ---
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