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yak52

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 50

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Please try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in experimental airplane crashes. If you didn't find any, its because you don't kow where to look. Try looking at this one for starters: http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html.  This comes up with even a cursory word search on the web. You would have to look in every county in every state where a crash occurred or the plaintiff" s lived before the accident in order to do a thorough search. If you don't want to know or protect yourself, fine.   [quote][b]

johnd(at)data-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Hi Roger,

 

 The accident listed on the website isn't against an experimental aircraft builder but rather by a builders wife against EAA and the sponsors of the airshow that her husband visited when he had his accident.

 

 Not saying there aren't any suits against hombeuilders but this isn't one of them.

 

 John

 

 roger lambert wrote: [quote]Please try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in experimental airplane crashes. If you didn't find any, its because you don't kow where to look. Try looking at this one for starters: http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html.  This comes up with even a cursory word search on the web. You would have to look in every county in every state where a crash occurred or the plaintiff" s lived before the accident in order to do a thorough search. If you don't want to know or protect yourself, fine.    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

That has nothing to do with the airplane. No one has ever been awarded any  money from a exp. aircraft that was sold and then crashed... and this thread is  getting old and my finger is hurting from having to hit the delete key so much  so I think I might have to sue you for injury to my finger if you keep up these  posts.

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  Please    try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in experimental airplane    crashes. If you didn't find any, its because you don't kow where to look. Try    looking at this one for starters: http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html.     This comes up with even a cursory word search on the web. You would have to    look in every county in every state where a crash occurred or the plaintiff" s    lived before the accident in order to do a thorough search. If you don't want    to know or protect yourself, fine.  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


 

  

 Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.

  [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

From the EAA,  Only one judgement was ever  brought on an experimental builder.  And that was actually for a faulty  fuel valve, which caused John Denvers death.

 Homebuilders dont have enough assets to go  after.

 Lawyers want deep pockets. I aint got  nun..

  

 SW

 [quote]   ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: a gentle suggestion

I never said that suits weren't filed in EXP aircraft accidents. What I said is that I've yet to be able to find a suit where the original amateur builder was found at fault when a later owner was injured. And I've looked and no you don't have to contact every single jurisdiction to research this stuff. It is available through services like Lexis. And I will repeat, if you think you know of such a case please give me something dates, N# names, location (probably any 2 will do) and I will research it and post the results.



The well known case you cited is a perfect example. They went after who they thought the deep pockets were and those did not include the builder of the plane. He was not even named in the suit. (Not that he would have had any liability had they tried.)



In our wonderful system you can sue anyone for anything. Yak, I could sue you because this thread has hurt my feelings. But to have any chance of winning first I need to find a lawyer that thinks he is going to make some money off of it then he and I have to prove that your actions have damaged me in some way. Neither of which I can do.



Being concerned about lawsuits is a reality in this day and age. Limiting the happiness in your life (and putting an airplane that I built into a crusher would qualify as limiting my happiness) because of that fear is not, in my opinion, the proper way to deal with it and a really crappy way to live.

 	  yak52 wrote: 	
		  Please try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in experimental airplane crashes. If you didn't find any, its because you don't kow where to look. Try looking at this one for starters: http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html.  This comes up with even a cursory word search on the web. You would have to look in every county in every state where a crash occurred or the plaintiff" s lived before the accident in order to do a thorough search. If you don't want to know or protect yourself, fine.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: a gentle suggestion

And even that one was against the maker of the fuel valve not the amature builder.



 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  From the EAA,  Only one judgement was ever  brought on an experimental builder.  And that was actually for a faulty  fuel valve, which caused John Denvers death.

 Homebuilders dont have enough assets to go  after.

 Lawyers want deep pockets. I aint got  nun..

  

 SW

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Speaking of insurance companies. If you make a major change to your

experimental, one that requires the FAA be notified and fly off hours

to be assigned, but you don't do that. Your insurance company may not pay

your claim in the event of an accident (it's happened before according to

one web site I visited). 



Roger



p.s. a "major change" can be something as small as changing your fuel system

pluming.





--

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

How did the fuel valve cause his John denvers death? I thought he ran out of gas and couldn’t find the fuel valve (to switch to reserve) as it was behind his seat or something.  

   

Roger  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve

 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:50 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: re: a gentle suggestion  

  

     

From the EAA,  Only one judgement was ever brought on an experimental builder.  And that was actually for a faulty fuel valve, which caused John Denvers death.  

    

Homebuilders dont have enough assets to go after.  

    

Lawyers want deep pockets. I aint got nun..  

    

   

    

SW  

  [quote]    

---

BobCollins

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Sunnyvale CA USA

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Roger,

Where is the head of this thread? I can't find the message that you are 

apparently commenting on.



Bob C

roger lambert wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Please try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in 

 experimental airplane crashes. If you didn't find any, its because you 

 don't kow where to look. Try looking at this one for starters: 

 http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html.  

 This comes up with even a cursory word search on the web. You would 

 have to look in every county in every state where a crash occurred or 

 the plaintiff" s lived before the accident in order to do a thorough 

 search. If you don't want to know or protect yourself, fine.

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Yep.  Ol John Denver could not reach the valve  to switch tanks.   Somehow, as in all law suits, the valve was listed  as the cause.  No mention of who and how it was installed.

 If you look at aviation actions, you will see  listed engine, wheels, paint and whoever had "something" to do with the  aircraft.

 Even pilot.....

 Go figure

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Right on.

Even if you swap the prop out for any reason you redo the flight test.....

Best not to have the propeller log in with the engine log.  Have a sepersted 

book for each.

Sharpen your pencil and just go fly.



---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: Re: a gentle suggestion

 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  

Best not to have the propeller log in with the engine log.  Have a sepersted 

book for each.

Sharpen your pencil and just go fly.



--- 	




Why is that?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: a gentle suggestion

If the prop data is in with the engine log and you change out the propeller 

(for what ever reason) you must notify the FAA and redo your test period. 

Maybe only five hours test but its still a test period.

Then the insurance company.... If you have an incident or accident the log 

must match what's on the aircraft.

I know we "cheat" now and then but the insurance company will do their best 

not to pay...

If I remember correctly, years ago we were operating under part 8206-D. 

That allowed you to just make a logbook entry and then you were covered. 

Today there is a different "part" and a modification to your aircraft causes 

all kinds of certifications to be scrutinized....

Again, we do cheat on the rules but remember your kind and loving insurance 

company is looking for any excuse to reject your claim.........

Then you deal with the FAA.   I have, and luck have it,  my records were up 

to date........(experimented with five different props to get best 

performance)



Crazy rules example:   if you have a certified engine like the 0-200 and the 

data plate is still on the engine,  you must be a certified mechanic (P) to 

work on the darn thing.  If you simply remove the plate its then considered 

experimental and your home  free.  Do your own overhauls etc and go fly.

Same engine   without the plate can make life easier for homebuilders....



---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: a gentle suggestion

The insurance companies have only two simple goals for  their workers:   

  

 Do their best To sell  Insurance policies  as complete and expensive as possible.

  

 Do their best job in looking for excuses to not pay the insurance policies.    

  

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower.

 Do not archive.

  



--- On Thu, 2/5/09, steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:



 [quote]From: steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>

Subject: Re: Re: a gentle suggestion

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 11:20 AM



[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "steve" <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net>  If the prop data is in with the engine log and you change out the propeller  (for what ever reason) you must notify the FAA and redo your test period.  Maybe only five hours test but its still a test period. Then the insurance company.... If you have an incident or accident the log  must match what's on the aircraft. I know we "cheat" now and then but the insurance company will do their best  not to pay... If I remember correctly, years ago we were operating under part 8206-D.  That allowed you to just make a logbook entry and then you were covered.  Today there is a different "part" and a modification to your aircraft causes  all kinds of certifications to be scrutinized.... Again, we do cheat on the rules but remember your kind and loving insurance  company is looking for any excuse to reject your claim......... Then you deal with the FAA.   I have, and luck have it,  my records were up  to date........(experimented with five different props to get best  performance)  Crazy rules example:   if you have a certified engine like the 0-200 and the  data plate is still on the engine,  you must be a certified mechanic (P) to  work on the darn thing.  If you simply remove the plate its then considered  experimental and your home  free.  Do your own overhauls etc and go fly. Same engine   without the plate can make life easier for homebuilders....  ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: Re: a gentle suggestion

I'm not about to get into a long discussion of right and wrong BUT...



If you are knowingly keeping two sets of books to get around either an FAA regulation or an insurance company requirement you can quickly turn what would be a simple FAR violation into fraud which can have criminal penalties.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

I agree.

So, if you experiment with your aircraft you will be forever in the phase 

one test.

In phase two if you change something,you go back to phase one.  You might 

get the five hour requirement but if you have a pissy FSDO, youll get the 40 

hours.



Say not ?  I ve seen it happen.....



Depends on who you get to do the sign offs....



Its best to become "friends" with your local FAA...

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

Its income tax time.

Please be sure not to deduct anything  your not entitled to take off your 

earned income.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

This lawsuit was brought against the EAA and the Arlington airshow and  

others, not against the builder. As I recall, the verdict in this  

lawsuit was later thrown out on appeal. The case also had nothing to  

do with the fact that it involved a homebuilt aircraft. The suit  

claimed that the airshow sponsors failed to provide adequate emergency  

response resources.

On Feb 4, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Please try to pay careful attention. Lawsuits are filed in  

 experimental airplane crashes. If you didn't find any, its because  

 you don't kow where to look. Try looking at this one for starters: http://www.plane-crash-aviation-attorneys.com/html/plane_crash_death.html 

 .


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: a gentle suggestion

The lawsuit in the John Denver case was not brought against the  

builder, he was not even named in the suit. The suit was brought  

against Aircraft Spruce, which sold the fuel valve to the original  

builder, and the manufacturer of the fuel valve, Gould Electronics.  

The suit alleged that the valve was faulty and caused the crash.



The NTSB report states that no no pre-crash failures were found. From  

NTSB report LAX98FA008:



"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable  

cause(s) of this accident as follows.

the pilot's diversion of attention from the operation of the airplane  

and his inadvertent application of right rudder that resulted in

the loss of airplane control while attempting to manipulate the fuel  

selector handle. Also, the Board determined that the pilot's

inadequate preflight planning and preparation, specifically his  

failure to refuel the airplane, was causal. The Board determined that  

the builder's decision to locate the unmarked fuel selector handle in  

a hard-to-access position, unmarked fuel quantity sight gauges,  

inadequate transition training by the pilot, and his lack of total  

experience in this type of airplane were factors in the accident"



On Feb 4, 2009, at 4:50 PM, steve wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From the EAA,  Only one judgement was ever brought on an  

 experimental builder.  And that was actually for a faulty fuel  

 valve, which caused John Denvers death.

 Homebuilders dont have enough assets to go after.

 Lawyers want deep pockets. I aint got nun..


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: a gentle suggestion

 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  Gig,



Don't you and the ZBAG group keep two sets of discussions, one private, one public?  

What do you think your liability is as to the ZBAG group? 	




Sabrina, let's hit the brakes here for a second.



1. I have no idea if ZBAG has a second more private discussion set. I subscribed to the Yahoo ZBAG group for the exact same reason I get into trouble here from time to time, I like and more importantly feel the need to yell Bu!!$hit from time to time.



2. I have NEVER donated to the ZBAG fund.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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