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Mogas revisited

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

I got a call from a friend in the central part of California this afternoon. 

He has a Model V+ (early 2003 with a 912S - 300 hours).  He has been using 

avgas for the usual - Mehanol - reasons and is in the process of having 

Lockwood split the case and clean the whole thing up after what Lockwood 

suspects is lead related problems.  He has been changing oil at 50 hours, 

Lockwood says 25.



The question he asked had to do with the resin formula on the final batch of 

tanks Skyster sold before the bankurptcy.  I had no info, but thought if 

there was a problem with these tanks with mogas, there would be reports 

sufacing on the list.  I don't recall any.  Does anyone with this era tank 

have any advice for Eric.



Thanks in a advance.



Lowell

sbennett3(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

Lowell, Has your friend tried running seafoam through the fuel? I had low idle miss on my 912 and ran it through 2 tanks and its fine now. I went on a couple cross countries burning 100LL and after 40 gallons it took on a low rpm miss/stuck valve.  Seafoam is some good stuff... I tried 2 tanks of Marvel mystery oil too. It got better, but not like seafoam did.  Steve Bennett  912ul

  

  

  

 In a message dated 02/03/09 19:35:25 Eastern Standard Time, lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

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   [quote][b]

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

Lowell,

I understood that my V from mid '99 was after the change to a resin that

could stand ethanol.  All I burn is premium mogas and have had no problems

yet.



Randy

Series 5/7 912S Warpdrive

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

Apparently this problem had nothing to do with the engine, but rather the 

clutch and the drive unit.



Lowell

---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

Thanks Randy,



This is exactly the information he is looking for.



Lowell



Do not archive

---

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited

Lowell,



I have the first Series V aircraft, Kreemed tanks and all.   I decided to use avgas to avoid any issues with mogas/additives.  I do use the lead eliminating chemical that McBean sells to prevent lead buildup.  I don't have enough hours on the engine to have problems - yet, but I'm not expecting any due to the lead scavenging additive.  I have heard that if the oil isn't changed regularly there could be lead deposits in the gearbox.  I would be sure to use the Lockwood recommended oil/change time.

 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Feb 3, 2009, at 7:26 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>



I got a call from a friend in the central part of California this afternoon. He has a Model V+ (early 2003 with a 912S - 300 hours).  He has been using avgas for the usual - Mehanol - reasons and is in the process of having Lockwood split the case and clean the whole thing up after what Lockwood suspects is lead related problems.  He has been changing oil at 50 hours, Lockwood says 25.



The question he asked had to do with the resin formula on the final batch of tanks Skyster sold before the bankurptcy.  I had no info, but thought if there was a problem with these tanks with mogas, there would be reports sufacing on the list.  I don't recall any.  Does anyone with this era tank have any advice for Eric.



Thanks in a advance.



Lsp;         - MATRONICS WEB FOR========================

p;            &nnbsp; --> http://w=======================





	


=  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Mogas revisited

If you are using 100LL you should be changing oil at 25 hrs and plugs at 50 hrs. If you don't then headaches await you soon. If you use 91 oct. then oil and filter at 50 hrs and plugs at 75 hrs.

Tell your friend not to worry about the ethanol. The lead in 100LL is far worse in the long run. If he is using 100LL then he should also be using a fuel additive like Decalin (from Aircraft Spruce) all the time. It is 1/2 oz. for each 10 gal.

The lead in 100LL gets in everything. Pilots in Europe use up to 18% ethanol and in South America up to 24% so why worry about 7-10% here. Rotax says 5% is ok in writing, but a good part of the Rotax owners in the USA use 91 Oct. with ethanol. This question comes up in every class. 91 Oct. is better for the engine than 100LL!

Even if you use a lead scavenging fuel additive you will have to pull the gear box at 800 hrs and clean it out and you will probably have to send it to a service center. You may have lead build up issues in the valve train or cylinders to deal with. Rotax has some guide lines as to when you have to pull components when using 100LL that others using 91 octane do not have to bother with.



Here is the old adage if you don't keep up on your Rotax maint: 

 Pay a little now or pay a lot later.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

I'm just curious.  If the lead is soooo bad in these engines, why isn't 

Rotax issuing a prohibition order on it to save themselves from lawsuits? 

Then there are those who use 100LL exclusively with no problems...

Baffled,

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert





---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Mogas revisited

There is nothing wrong with 100LL because it has been in planes for decades. It still cause GA engines issues the same as Rotax. The GA maint times would be less and less repair issues if they could run unleaded, but most can't. Some Ga pilots do have STC's and they absolutely benefit or they wouldn't have purchased the STC. 100LL is an accepted fuel, but the lead issue is still there and they have to use the lead to get the Octane up to 100LL. We can not make 100 unleaded with our current technology. We can get to about 96 octane. Rotax is no different in that 100LL is an accepted fuel it just causes double the maint and leading issues. It is and has been accepted aviation practice.

You can use 100LL all you want just follow the shortened maint schedule and parts disassembly schedule.

But you have a choice with the Rotax engine to not use the 100LL and use a cleaner burning fuel. The other reason people use 100LL around the world is that a number of places don't have an alternative fuel for them to use so they are relegated to 100LL for all aircraft.



100LL is an accepted fuel in aviation, but we are lucky here in the USA with our Rotax and can have a say in our engine's health.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

Here in good old Sweden we have 91/96 UL unleaded fuel, some have 25-30% 

100LL in it for engines that need lead



Jan



http://www.hjelmco.com/default.asp



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

I agree with all except... I think they can make a 100 octane gas without

using either lead or ethanol.  I also thing they can modify the engines to

run on lower octane fuel simply by lowering the CR a tad.  In other words

undo all the stuff we used to do to our cars that made then run faster but

requi8red higher and higher octane fuel.



There is a way of removing ethanol from gasohol now if we could find a way

of removing say 75% of the lead in 100LL  that to me would be a start.



I've checked the so called lead scavengers and the only thing they protect

is the exhaust valves and the top of the cylinder head ( spark plugs )  it

does nothing to protect the engine from lead in blow by gasses so therefore

does nothing to help either Rotax two or four stroke engines.



There has been rumors (and we all know what to do with them) of a 92

unleaded gas formulated for use in aviation.  I only hope it's true.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, R-912

Aerocet 1100 floats



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

Fuels for older supercharged radials (extra lead) and next to unleaded

(0.002g/l) sounds excellent too bad we can't get it here.  I'm sure there

would be a market for it sold as an aviation fuel.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

There are a couple of items regarding 100LL and Premium Auto Gas in regards

to the Kitfox and Rotax 912/912S power.



As a reminder.. we do have tanks now that are ethanol resistant.



When running 100LL be careful on the oil chosen.  If running a synthetic oil

with 100LL you will have issues.  Personally I have used Honda pro GN4 oil

(make sure it does not have Moly if you have a slipper clutch), and now have

changed to the Aeroshell Sport Plus 4... Also use the Decalin Run-up. It can

be carried in the cockpit and treats up to 320 gallons (1/2 oz per 10

gallons)  We keep both the Aeroshell and the Decalin in Stock.



Change the oil every 25 hours.. Plugs are another item.. I have found at

about 75-100 hours they start to give indication.  Still work fine.  Others

run for upwards of 150 hours.



Regarding the Tanks... The resin was changed in Jan 96 and used until 2007

and it was not tested against ethanol.  Some have reported running ethanol

without issue but the common theme is when using autogas with ethanol.. do

not let it sit in the tanks.. put it in and fly it out.  Don't let it sit

for any length of time.



We are testing some of the older tanks with ethanol fuels.

Fly Safe !!

John McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 





--

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Mogas revisited

Hi Noel,



According to all that is written from the fuel companies and people in the industry they can't make unleaded fuels yet over 96 octane without the other unwanted things like lead, ethanol or methanol. I had to do a research project on fuels a year ago and I learned this at that time. We use 91 Octane because of our compression ratio in the 912 100 hp. being higher than the 912 80 hp. The 91 octane sit time is about 3 weeks, then you are losing octane and additives through evaporation even if you have a lid on the container. Gas vaporizes at -45F. Semi synthetic oil is for 100LL and either semi or full synthetic for 91. Full synthetic does not suspend lead and it falls out in the gearbox and crankcase. You should not be letting plugs run to 150 hr. Rotax schools recommend 75 for 91 octane and 50 for 100LL use. No where in any manual has Rotax ever had 150 plug change. It used to be 100 hrs. years ago, but is taught different now. Fuel scavengers like Decalin does help Rotax 912's. It helps keep the lead soft and helps keep it off everything in the cylinder( i.e. plugs, valves, valve seats, cyl. heads). This scavenger should help blow more out the exhaust. 



I would recommend that all that do their own work go to a Rotax service school and a line maint school. These are two day schools and $500 each.

 A&P's really need to go.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Mogas revisited

Or hang out here a while

Wink- wink



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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