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ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

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AVN100(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

I will repeat my simple Lightning ELSA questions at the end,  hoping against hope that in this round, finally, someone can objectively and  credibly answer them.  

  

 It is SO easy to make this about me instead of about the  aircraft...   and to forget I intend to buy one so must think the  company and aircraft are fine overall... yet unlike allah, not  perfect.  Like Salman Rushdie I get fatwahed by the mullahs for pointing  that out, asking questions, and making suggestions.  Far easier to attack  me and critique my style (or lack of it) instead of answering my questions or  contradicting my observations.  The posts thusfar do the former with relish  but not a single one does the latter.  Viz:

  

 wampam declares he disagrees with me, as is his right.   Doesn't say what he disagrees with.  Offers not a single factual  contradiction.

  

 pequeajim calls me a "House Troll" and then admits that  thanks to House Trolls like me criticizing CZAW duplicity on those forums he  once monitored, something didn't smell right and saved him making a big  financial mistake.  I guess that is a veiled thank you.  Veil you're  velly velcome.  Like his pals, he does not offer a single factual  contradiction of anything I posted about Arion and the Lightning.  Even I  will admit some of it MUST be in error and much of it was speculation and/or  requests for correction and explanation.  He declares he has his Lightning,  gets fantastic customer service, and doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone  who is in the same position here that he once was in with CZAW = interested  but uncommitted, making comparisons with the competition, and wanting to  consider all aspects.  Simply the most selfish "House Whore" I have ever  encountered on any enthusiast forum.  Hey, he started the name  calling.

  

 Walt cheerleads for and thus seems to agree with  piquedjimbo that this forum is for praising Arion and meeting the needs of  current EAB owners... so prospects and ELSA inquiries be  damned.  If  he and piquedjimbo are right about that, well someone  just say so.... and ex-cu-u-u-se me.  And may never be heard a discouraging  word and the skies be not cloudy all day.  

  

 In a word, dear Hugh, "no"... but I have been using Macs  since graduating from an Apple IIe to an SE and through a half dozen  since.  As for my role and record in other forums see above, noting  that all calls for my removal elsewhere came from company execs or shills who  did not want their PR puffery or Ponzi schemes (or cash flow) challenged.   Worse, some were from sycophants currying favor while trying to jump ahead  of others for early delivery dates.  All were answered with ten times  as many posts of praise for my independence from average readers.  As a  result I'm still posting on those forums and still considered objective and  reliable, albeit bawdily colorful.  I know far less about Arion and the  Lightning than I did about those other marques. I have never said Arion is  guilty of their deliberate misrepresentations or indeed any  malfeasance.  Actually I think the long post you refer to was during a  pitched battle five years ago with fat-UL advocates who wanted the Sport Pilot  movement stillborn or, if they couldn't kill it, hoped Limbaugh-like  that it would fail miserably.  I see some are still around even though  their cause isn't.

  

 And as for the insults and derision from Doug K.,  uhh... don't you fall under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal monetary  benefit" banner that drives so many of those ignoring the substance of my  concerns thusfar to launch ad hominem attacks?  Thought I saw you  financially connected to Green Landings which I thought is financially connected  to Arion... but retraction and apologies if mistaken.  If not and  you ARE tied in financially somehow, time for YOUR apology and  admission that while market forces and the missed 51% opportunity have  brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they did not  originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some newer 100%  SP manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or oversights.  Aviation  safety and consumer protection depend on asking questions rather than  accepting the status quo and/or ad copy.   Unethical bribe  time.  Admit all that and I will cheerfully provide a list of twenty  spelling and grammar errors from the comparison table - as part of my constant  and consistent product improvement effort.  About that chart,  if you ARE with Green Landings, doesn't your  own  comparison table's "free rain" [sic] analysis sort of support my prior  (and universally derided) assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod  flexibility than SLSA?  And whassupp with both being the same price?   And why advertise (and according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on)  SLSA if you only intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to  exclusive ELSA production for an extended period?  Oh christ, more  questions.  And clouds in the sky.  Who needs this, right?   Potential SP buyers who want as much credible, objective information as they can  get, that's who. And not just marketing puffery. Obviously not current  EAB owners who are free to ignore this topic entirely yet  who instead chime in attempting to deny the information to others.   

  

 So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead  of trying to kill the messenger?

  

  a)  Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity  that was out there year after year until last fall (and won't  they have another bite at the apple yet) ?

  

 b)  If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be  90%  or more (how much more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when  the owner gets it and begins the final ten percent or  less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as complex as  one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?

  

 c)  Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or  aren't you much more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an  SLSA?

  

 d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per  their claim at Sebring to Dan Johnson?

  

 e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what  production rate per month of each?

  

 I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for any   answers to the above and additional hard info on Arion LSA models  provided myself (perhaps back channel would be best for your safety and  reputation) or in public to interested but silent readers.  As for the  gaggle of indefatigable character assassins, based on an excellent suggestion  from Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral dee-rection.

  

  

  

  



 Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.

  [quote][b]

Wayne(at)lpwa.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

Matt – manage the list and get this idiot off now if you want me on it.  This is not what I read the list for.   

     

Wayne Patterson  

LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP  

PO Box 398 South Perth 6951  

08 94742126  

  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2009 11:44 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  

  

  

     

I will repeat my simple Lightning ELSA questions at the end, hoping against hope that in this round, finally, someone can objectively and credibly answer them.    

    

   

    

It is SO easy to make this about me instead of about the aircraft...   and to forget I intend to buy one so must think the company and aircraft are fine overall... yet unlike allah, not perfect.  Like Salman Rushdie I get fatwahed by the mullahs for pointing that out, asking questions, and making suggestions.  Far easier to attack me and critique my style (or lack of it) instead of answering my questions or contradicting my observations.  The posts thusfar do the former with relish but not a single one does the latter.  Viz:  

    

   

    

wampam declares he disagrees with me, as is his right.  Doesn't say what he disagrees with.  Offers not a single factual contradiction.  

    

   

    

pequeajim calls me a "House Troll" and then admits that thanks to House Trolls like me criticizing CZAW duplicity on those forums he once monitored, something didn't smell right and saved him making a big financial mistake.  I guess that is a veiled thank you.  Veil you're velly velcome.  Like his pals, he does not offer a single factual contradiction of anything I posted about Arion and the Lightning.  Even I will admit some of it MUST be in error and much of it was speculation and/or requests for correction and explanation.  He declares he has his Lightning, gets fantastic customer service, and doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone who is in the same position here that he once was in with CZAW = interested but uncommitted, making comparisons with the competition, and wanting to consider all aspects.  Simply the most selfish "House Whore" I have ever encountered on any enthusiast forum.  Hey, he started the name calling.  

    

   

    

Walt cheerleads for and thus seems to agree with piquedjimbo that this forum is for praising Arion and meeting the needs of current EAB owners... so prospects and ELSA inquiries be damned.  If  he and piquedjimbo are right about that, well someone just say so.... and ex-cu-u-u-se me.  And may never be heard a discouraging word and the skies be not cloudy all day.    

    

   

    

In a word, dear Hugh, "no"... but I have been using Macs since graduating from an Apple IIe to an SE and through a half dozen since.  As for my role and record in other forums see above, noting that all calls for my removal elsewhere came from company execs or shills who did not want their PR puffery or Ponzi schemes (or cash flow) challenged.  Worse, some were from sycophants currying favor while trying to jump ahead of others for early delivery dates.  All were answered with ten times as many posts of praise for my independence from average readers.  As a result I'm still posting on those forums and still considered objective and reliable, albeit bawdily colorful.  I know far less about Arion and the Lightning than I did about those other marques. I have never said Arion is guilty of their deliberate misrepresentations or indeed any malfeasance.  Actually I think the long post you refer to was during a pitched battle five years ago with fat-UL advocates who wanted the Sport Pilot movement stillborn or, if they couldn't kill it, hoped Limbaugh-like that it would fail miserably.  I see some are still around even though their cause isn't.  

    

   

    

And as for the insults and derision from Doug K., uhh... don't you fall under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal monetary benefit" banner that drives so many of those ignoring the substance of my concerns thusfar to launch ad hominem attacks?  Thought I saw you financially connected to Green Landings which I thought is financially connected to Arion... but retraction and apologies if mistaken.  If not and you ARE tied in financially somehow, time for YOUR apology and admission that while market forces and the missed 51% opportunity have brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they did not originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some newer 100% SP manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or oversights.  Aviation safety and consumer protection depend on asking questions rather than accepting the status quo and/or ad copy.   Unethical bribe time.  Admit all that and I will cheerfully provide a list of twenty spelling and grammar errors from the comparison table - as part of my constant and consistent product improvement effort.  About that chart, if you ARE with Green Landings, doesn't your  own comparison table's "free rain" [sic] analysis sort of support my prior (and universally derided) assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod flexibility than SLSA?  And whassupp with both being the same price?  And why advertise (and according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on) SLSA if you only intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to exclusive ELSA production for an extended period?  Oh christ, more questions.  And clouds in the sky.  Who needs this, right?  Potential SP buyers who want as much credible, objective information as they can get, that's who. And not just marketing puffery. Obviously not current EAB owners who are free to ignore this topic entirely yet who instead chime in attempting to deny the information to others.    

    

   

    

So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead of trying to kill the messenger?  

    

   

      

a)  Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity that was out there year after year until last fall (and won't they have another bite at the apple yet) ?  

    

   

    

b)  If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be 90%  or more (how much more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when the owner gets it and begins the final ten percent or less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as complex as one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?  

    

   

    

c)  Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or aren't you much more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an SLSA?  

    

   

    

d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per their claim at Sebring to Dan Johnson?  

    

   

    

e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what production rate per month of each?  

    

   

    

I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for any answers to the above and additional hard info on Arion LSA models provided myself (perhaps back channel would be best for your safety and reputation) or in public to interested but silent readers.  As for the gaggle of indefatigable character assassins, based on an excellent suggestion from Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral dee-rection.  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

  

  

       

  

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c===========   

      [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

AVN100,

     I will provide what I think are the answers to your  questions, although you never took the time to answer mine the last time you  were on this list.  The reason I am going to take the time to answer them  is because others on the list may be interested in the answers, and one of the  main purposes of the list is information sharing.  For those that may be  somewhat new to the list, please realize that I do not now, nor have I ever  worked for Arion Aircraft.  I am just a happy customer that they trust to  fly all their aircraft (because of my past flying, building and testing  experiences).  So here goes:

  

  a)  Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity  that was out there year after year until last fall (and won't  they have another bite at the apple yet) ?

     Arion has requested that the EAB Lightning kit be  looked at, but as most of you know those FAA inspections are on hold until the  new 51% rule is out.  So it eventually will be inspected. Your comment  about Arion missing the opportunity year after year is misleading for  several reasons.  First, remember the prototype Lightning did not even fly  until March of 2006.  Nick was giving it glowing reports to Pete, but Pete  was reluctant to spend more of the investor's money in a demonstrator and to  develop a complete EAB kit until he at least got a second opinion on the  prototype's flying characteristics.  That is when I got lucky and Pete  asked me to fly the prototype.  That flight report from my flight in July  2006 is still available  on the Lightning web site.  Also remember  that the first Lightning demo didn't fly until April of 2007, less than 2 years  ago and not too much before the moratorium was put in place.  A tremendous  amount of work has been done by Arion since the first demo flew and with very  few people actually on the Arion team to do that work.  Completing the  paperwork to get the EAB kit inspected for the 51% list probably took back seat  to getting the actual kits into production and doing all the other things that a  start up company with only two or three workers has to do.  Remember, a kit  does not have to be on the 51% approved list to be built as an EAB.  It  just makes the builder have a good builder's log to show the DAR to prove that  he did at least 51% of the work.  Heck, he needs a good builder's log when  he applies for the repairman's certificate.  Also remember that the  Tennessee guys had previously sold the VM-1 Esqual kit and they had it  inspected for the 51% list and it was approved.  Believe me, the Esqual kit  is easier to build than the current Lightning kit, so I see no problem with the  Lightning EAB kit being put on the approved list when the FAA gets back to doing  those inspections.  

  

 b)  If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be  90%  or more (how much more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when  the owner gets it and begins the final ten percent or  less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as complex as  one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?

     Who said the ELSA Lightning kits will be 90%  complete?  I am betting that Arion, being a proactive company, will work  with each builder and let them determine how much work they want the factory to  do before they take delivery or arrive for the builder's assist program.   Why do it any other way?  Let the customer "have it their way".  So  you may see ELSA Lightning kits with anywhere from 50% to 90% complete.   After some point they may find that it is better to do them all to the same  completion for making things more standard.  We will have to wait and see  what transpires.  Remember, flexibility is the key to airpower.   

     The complex build manual will be complex because of  the SLSA Lightning and the fact that it's build manual (and POH) must meet ASTM  standards.  The ELSA Lightning will use the same build manual - no  need to write a separate one, and the ELSA builder may possible benefit in the  future having a much more complete build manual (in case the airplane needs some  repair).  And remember there can be no ELSA until there is at least one  ASTM approved "turn key" SLSA.  And please don't confuse the old heavy  ultra light ELSA that the FAA came out with to get all those illegal "fat" ultra  lights on the registered list.  The ELSA we are talking about can only  be if the company first builds a certified SLSA.  Hence all the work to get  everything ASTM approved.  

  

 c)  Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are  or aren't you much more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an  SLSA?

     I must admit I have not thoroughly read up on  what you will be allowed to do after an ELSA is  flying.  I do know that for the initial registration as an ELSA it must be  exactly like the SLSA.  But also remember that the SLSA can have options as  to various avionics, etc. that are on the approved list, so the ELSA can have  those same options. Things like wheel pants, landing lights, etc. can also  be on this approved options list.  I would guess that if a builder  later wanted to install a radio that was not on the initial approved list, it  would be like installing a radio in your "store bought"  airplane.  Have it installed and signed off by the appropriate  person.  

  

 d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009,  per their claim at Sebring to Dan Johnson?

     What do you mean by LSA?  SLSA or SLSA?   And remember, they are already selling EAB kits that can be built to meet the  requirements to be flown by a Sport Pilot.  Assuming all goes well with the  ASTM certification for the SLSA Lightning LS-1 that will probably take place in  late March, there will probably be ELSA Lightning LS-1 kits available by the  Sebring time frame.  Remember once again, this is a small company that  depends on many different suppliers.  Lets hope the current economic  situation throughout the country does not effect any of Arion's  suppliers.    

  

 e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what  production rate per month of each?

     The initial emphasis will be on  the ELSA kits, not the SLSA.  Why?  So far most of  the interest  has been in kits, not turn key airplanes.  Also, assuming the EAB Lightning  kit does not meet the new 51% rule because of the 20% fabrication (who really  knows what that will mean) then at least Arion can continue to sell ELSA kits  until the EAB kit is re-packaged.  As to production rate  per month  - Who knows?  Again, this is a small company.  They will do their  best to meet demand, but to set some production rate at this point is not  desirable.  Let supply be driven by the suppliers and demand be driven by  the customer.  I see no other good way to do this in a small company.    They certainly don' want to flood the market, even if they could.   

  

     So, AVN100, how about answering my previous  question.  I am curious, do you now or have you ever worked for the FAA in  the National Flight Procedures Office?  If you don't and have not, then how  did you pick your email name?  Inquiring minds want to know.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

 PS:  If you are trying to be abrasive, you are doing a good job.   Maybe part of the "We're not happy until you are not happy" way of  thinking.  If you are not trying to be abrasive, I suggest you re-read what  you have written before you hit the send button.   



 Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more.

  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

In a message dated 2/4/2009 9:51:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  AVN100(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   And as for the insults and derision from Doug K.,    uhh... don't you fall under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal    monetary benefit" banner that drives so many of those ignoring the substance    of my concerns thusfar to launch ad hominem attacks?  Thought I saw you    financially connected to Green Landings which I thought is financially    connected to Arion... but retraction and apologies if mistaken.  If not    and you ARE tied in financially somehow, time for YOUR apology and    admission that while market forces and the missed 51% opportunity have    brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they did not    originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some    newer 100% SP manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or    oversights.  Aviation safety and consumer protection depend on    asking questions rather than accepting the status quo and/or ad    copy.   Unethical bribe time.  Admit all that and I    will cheerfully provide a list of twenty spelling and grammar errors from the    comparison table - as part of my constant and consistent product    improvement effort.  About that chart, if    you ARE with Green Landings, doesn't your  own comparison table's    "free rain" [sic] analysis sort of support my prior (and universally    derided) assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod flexibility than    SLSA?  And whassupp with both being the same price?  And why    advertise (and according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on) SLSA if    you only intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to exclusive    ELSA production for an extended period?  Oh christ, more questions.     And clouds in the sky.  Who needs this, right?  Potential SP buyers    who want as much credible, objective information as they can get, that's    who. And not just marketing puffery. Obviously not current EAB    owners who are free to ignore this topic entirely yet    who instead chime in attempting to deny the information to others.     

    

   So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead    of trying to kill the messenger?

    

      a)  Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity    that was out there year after year until last fall (and won't    they have another bite at the apple yet) ?

    

   b)  If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be    90%  or more (how much more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built    when the owner gets it and begins the final ten percent or    less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as complex as    one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?

    

   c)  Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or    aren't you much more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an    SLSA?

    

   d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per    their claim at Sebring to Dan Johnson?

    

   e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what    production rate per month of each?

    

   I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for    any answers to the above and additional hard info on Arion LSA    models provided myself (perhaps back channel would be best for your safety and    reputation) or in public to interested but silent readers.  As for    the gaggle of indefatigable character assassins, based on an excellent    suggestion from Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral  dee-rection.

    

    

    



	


 

  

 Given my penchant for amateur psychology, I predict that you will not be  satisfied with my answers, but I will respond anyway.

  

 First, I have a very limited financial interest in Lightning  sales.   I do have a large personal commitment to the  success of Ryan Gross, Green Landings, Pete, Nick et al.    They  are great people and make my people commitments a greater priority than  financial.   You may equate it more with being the fan of a  good sports team.

  

 Second, I didn't do the chart, wherever that is.   Ryan is  the Main Man at Green Landings, not me.

  

 a. They did "miss" the 51% "opportunity".   But more  importantly, it is of very little consequence.  As I have posted before, it  is just saves a little paperwork.

  

 b.As Nick tried to tell you ,  the ELSA kit must perfectly follow the  SLSA.  But more importantly, a good build manual is extremely  helpful....assuming literacy on the part of the purchaser.

  

 c.What the owner does with ANY AIRPLANE   is up to  him.   But it is true than some will downgrade the S-LSA to E-LSA  status to make it easier to change and maintain.

  

 d. Arion has been delivering Light Sport kits since day one.  Some  have chosen to build them, some have not.

  

 e.  Production rate will carefully follow the sales  rate.    If memory serves, 4 a month is easy, more than that is  possible with a financial commitment to more molds.  Since it is  the same kit, for all models, it is just a paper shuffel.

  

 I trust this will  completely satisfy.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg 

  [quote][b]

pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Buz

  

 You have the ability to calmly turn a bad situation into a good one and  provide pertinent information in the process.

  

 I hope one of these days, I have the honor to meet you. Just think how much  I could learn.

  

 Thanks for being there.

  

 Gary Pennington

 [quote]   ---

N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.  I hope to meet you also.  I am  once again planning to be at both Sun-N-Fun and Oshkosh.  How about  you?  Normally the Lightning guys plan a "Meet and Greet" session for all  interested in the Lightning at both SNF and Oshkosh.  I am sure they will  again this year.  It is a good time to meet others on the list and share  information about the Lightning.  Lets hope that many Lightnings show up at  SNF this year.  I know World Record Earl will be there, lets just hope he  is not wearing his world record "flight suit".  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

 Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more.

  [quote][b]

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

You could simply have asked the questions with out a dissertation in the middle and bashes to our competion (very tacky if you ask me). If you have noticed any one else on the list they simple post there questions in a few sentences and wait for the answers, take note. They do not make statements waiting for a rebuttal.   

   

So to your questions not that we know what they are,  

     No      we are not on the 51% list, we never claimed the Lightning was, never advertised      that the Lightning was. We did say that for someone building the Lightning      that it did meet the current requirements for a kit to be reqesteried in      the EAB category, and that if a builder kept a log ( as they need to any      way for the repairmen certificate) that this was all that was needed. An      so far some 40 Lightnings have been inspected and in all cases (since they      have AWC) that the DARs determined that the builder did do at least 51% of      the work.  
The      same build manual that the builder of an ELSA will be also used for      quality assurance and the construction of the SLSA airframes, they are      identical in every way. No where have we yet stated that we will only      produce 90% ELSA, we might do 60%-75% or heck we can even do 100% ELSA if      the customer chooses that is what they want. So what is the point to write      a separate manual for each? They can just start where there kit is at. If repairs      are to be done to a part of the aircraft that they did not build, the      owner or mechanic or whom ever does the repair will need to know, how to      remove the part, inspect the part, repair the part, and reinstall the      part.  
Yes      you are more free to make “approved” changes to a ELSA than an      SLSA aircraft, again the key word is approved, and than you as the builder      must declare the changes compliance. We already covered this in detail,      but than again this was not really your original statement.  
Yes      we will be able to deliver in May of 2009, you don’t not work for      the company so how would you know the project status. If we say we will      deliver we will, I think our reputation has been clearly covered.  
They      will be what ever is ordered, if sales are good we can deliver at a rate      of 2 a month for now and maybe 4 with a larger workforce.   

   

Now I will make this statement point blank simply because I am annoyed with people who think they can talk on a subject with out any personnel or intimate knowledge of it ,but they just run their mouth to hear them self speak. Pete and my self have been in the Light sport industry since it was born, not just coming into it because we have to. We do live and breath this from day one. Pete’s other company Jabiru USA sport aircraft is rank 5th in total SLSA deliveries. He also is on the ASTM committee for making and approving all these little standards that you seem to know nothing about. I am not talking about weather it is 1320 or stalls at 45knts, but the actual standards for aircraft manufacture, quality control, continued airworthiness, and so on.   

Arion Aircraft was never late to the game; we wanted a good safe kit on the market first. When enough interest was shown in a Light sport compliant kit we design an manufactured an extension and suggested other changes to a builder to help them comply. Than finally only after enough interest was shown in a mostly built or fully built Lightning did we pursue the SLSA market. See if you would have worked for the company or maybe known us a little better you might have known that we were under development of the SLSA long before your AXE fell.   

   

I do not think that the Lightning is the right Aircraft for you; in fact I don’t think any aircraft is right for you.   

I would suggest taking up some other hobby as you will never own one of my aircraft and will never be part of this community.  

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC    

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100(at)aol.com

 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:44 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  

  

     

I will repeat my simple Lightning ELSA questions at the end, hoping against hope that in this round, finally, someone can objectively and credibly answer them.    

    

   

    

It is SO easy to make this about me instead of about the aircraft...   and to forget I intend to buy one so must think the company and aircraft are fine overall... yet unlike allah, not perfect.  Like Salman Rushdie I get fatwahed by the mullahs for pointing that out, asking questions, and making suggestions.  Far easier to attack me and critique my style (or lack of it) instead of answering my questions or contradicting my observations.  The posts thusfar do the former with relish but not a single one does the latter.  Viz:  

    

   

    

wampam declares he disagrees with me, as is his right.  Doesn't say what he disagrees with.  Offers not a single factual contradiction.  

    

   

    

pequeajim calls me a "House Troll" and then admits that thanks to House Trolls like me criticizing CZAW duplicity on those forums he once monitored, something didn't smell right and saved him making a big financial mistake.  I guess that is a veiled thank you.  Veil you're velly velcome.  Like his pals, he does not offer a single factual contradiction of anything I posted about Arion and the Lightning.  Even I will admit some of it MUST be in error and much of it was speculation and/or requests for correction and explanation.  He declares he has his Lightning, gets fantastic customer service, and doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone who is in the same position here that he once was in with CZAW = interested but uncommitted, making comparisons with the competition, and wanting to consider all aspects.  Simply the most selfish "House Whore" I have ever encountered on any enthusiast forum.  Hey, he started the name calling.  

    

   

    

Walt cheerleads for and thus seems to agree with piquedjimbo that this forum is for praising Arion and meeting the needs of current EAB owners... so prospects and ELSA inquiries be damned.  If  he and piquedjimbo are right about that, well someone just say so.... and ex-cu-u-u-se me.  And may never be heard a discouraging word and the skies be not cloudy all day.    

    

   

    

In a word, dear Hugh, "no"... but I have been using Macs since graduating from an Apple IIe to an SE and through a half dozen since.  As for my role and record in other forums see above, noting that all calls for my removal elsewhere came from company execs or shills who did not want their PR puffery or Ponzi schemes (or cash flow) challenged.  Worse, some were from sycophants currying favor while trying to jump ahead of others for early delivery dates.  All were answered with ten times as many posts of praise for my independence from average readers.  As a result I'm still posting on those forums and still considered objective and reliable, albeit bawdily colorful.  I know far less about Arion and the Lightning than I did about those other marques. I have never said Arion is guilty of their deliberate misrepresentations or indeed any malfeasance.  Actually I think the long post you refer to was during a pitched battle five years ago with fat-UL advocates who wanted the Sport Pilot movement stillborn or, if they couldn't kill it, hoped Limbaugh-like that it would fail miserably.  I see some are still around even though their cause isn't.  

    

   

    

And as for the insults and derision from Doug K., uhh... don't you fall under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal monetary benefit" banner that drives so many of those ignoring the substance of my concerns thusfar to launch ad hominem attacks?  Thought I saw you financially connected to Green Landings which I thought is financially connected to Arion... but retraction and apologies if mistaken.  If not and you ARE tied in financially somehow, time for YOUR apology and admission that while market forces and the missed 51% opportunity have brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they did not originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some newer 100% SP manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or oversights.  Aviation safety and consumer protection depend on asking questions rather than accepting the status quo and/or ad copy.   Unethical bribe time.  Admit all that and I will cheerfully provide a list of twenty spelling and grammar errors from the comparison table - as part of my constant and consistent product improvement effort.  About that chart, if you ARE with Green Landings, doesn't your  own comparison table's "free rain" [sic] analysis sort of support my prior (and universally derided) assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod flexibility than SLSA?  And whassupp with both being the same price?  And why advertise (and according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on) SLSA if you only intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to exclusive ELSA production for an extended period?  Oh christ, more questions.  And clouds in the sky.  Who needs this, right?  Potential SP buyers who want as much credible, objective information as they can get, that's who. And not just marketing puffery. Obviously not current EAB owners who are free to ignore this topic entirely yet who instead chime in attempting to deny the information to others.    

    

   

    

So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead of trying to kill the messenger?  

    

   

      

a)  Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity that was out there year after year until last fall (and won't they have another bite at the apple yet) ?  

    

   

    

b)  If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be 90%  or more (how much more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when the owner gets it and begins the final ten percent or less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as complex as one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?  

    

   

    

c)  Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or aren't you much more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an SLSA?  

    

   

    

d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per their claim at Sebring to Dan Johnson?  

    

   

    

e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what production rate per month of each?  

    

   

    

I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for any answers to the above and additional hard info on Arion LSA models provided myself (perhaps back channel would be best for your safety and reputation) or in public to interested but silent readers.  As for the gaggle of indefatigable character assassins, based on an excellent suggestion from Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral dee-rection.  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

  

  

       

  

Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.

  [quote][b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com -Matt href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c===========   

        [quote][b]

pennington(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hello Buz

  

 I haven't thought about Sun-N-Fun yet, but I will look into it. 

  

 Happy flying.

  

 Gary

 [quote]   ---

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

I vote this year to have our Arion Lightning gathering at Sun n Fun on Friday so I can finally make it!  

   

(yes, selfish reasons; I know, I know…)  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:06 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  

  

  

     

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.  I hope to meet you also.  I am once again planning to be at both Sun-N-Fun and Oshkosh.  How about you?  Normally the Lightning guys plan a "Meet and Greet" session for all interested in the Lightning at both SNF and Oshkosh.  I am sure they will again this year.  It is a good time to meet others on the list and share information about the Lightning.  Lets hope that many Lightnings show up at SNF this year.  I know World Record Earl will be there, lets just hope he is not wearing his world record "flight suit".    

    

Blue Skies,  

    

Buz  

  

       

  

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info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

Ok Friday it is than if there are no objections. We’ll bring the corn roast and such if you guys bring your self.  

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:32 PM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  

  

   

I vote this year to have our Arion Lightning gathering at Sun n Fun on Friday so I can finally make it!  

   

(yes, selfish reasons; I know, I know…)  

       

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:06 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  

  

  

     

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.  I hope to meet you also.  I am once again planning to be at both Sun-N-Fun and Oshkosh.  How about you?  Normally the Lightning guys plan a "Meet and Greet" session for all interested in the Lightning at both SNF and Oshkosh.  I am sure they will again this year.  It is a good time to meet others on the list and share information about the Lightning.  Lets hope that many Lightnings show up at SNF this year.  I know World Record Earl will be there, lets just hope he is not wearing his world record "flight suit".    

    

Blue Skies,  

    

Buz  

  

         

  

  

Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more.   	  Quote: 	
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pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

Thanks Nick.  I'll bring my appetite...



 On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 9:16 AM, flylightning <info(at)flylightning.net (info(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:

 [quote]   

Ok Friday it is than if there are no objections. We'll bring the corn roast and such if you guys bring your self.  

  

Nick Otterback 

Arion Aircraft, LLC 

     

 

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Langley

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:32 PM  

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)



Subject: RE: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3  



  

  

I vote this year to have our Arion Lightning gathering at Sun n Fun on Friday so I can finally make it!  

  

(yes, selfish reasons; I know, I know…) 

    

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:06 AM

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3



 

   

Thanks for the kind words, Gary.  I hope to meet you also.  I am once again planning to be at both Sun-N-Fun and Oshkosh.  How about you?  Normally the Lightning guys plan a "Meet and Greet" session for all interested in the Lightning at both SNF and Oshkosh.  I am sure they will again this year.  It is a good time to meet others on the list and share information about the Lightning.  Lets hope that many Lightnings show up at SNF this year.  I know World Record Earl will be there, lets just hope he is not wearing his world record "flight suit".   

  

Blue Skies,

  

Buz

 

     



 

Stay up to date on the latest news - from sports scores to stocks and so much more.  	  Quote: 	
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n5pb(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3

I'll bring my appetite too and perhaps my Lightning!!!

 

 Bear

 

 

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